Random disconnections from the internet

[RandomGeeza]

Absolutely at my wits end with the random and periodic discons from the internet.

To bullet-point the facts:

Issues started around mid to end February 2013. The first day, I lost connection for a number of hours. I note that snow was heavy and, at first I put it down to weather issues.
Since then, I have suffered repeated disconnections, some for a while, others for seconds, some for a few minutes. With no real pattern visible except... (please read on).
iDNet have tested the line over and over, and have had a "no known fault" repeatedly returned. And yet the disconnections continue.
((In fact, whilst talking with Nick today, shortly after that conversation another random drop-out occurred)).
I have tested with my legacy router, a NetGear DGN2000, which has been stable as a rock until this situation created doubt over its workability.
I have also been and bought a new NetGear DGN2200v3 (which was returned to the shop for a replacement, in order to be sure that the unit wasn't faulty when the same drop-outs occured).
I am now using a different NetGear DGN2200v3. With daily logs being recorded so that i can try to identify what it is.
New filters have been fitted, new cables. Test socket etc. etc. etc.
I have also done a number of quiet line tests... and am constantly monitoring performance on BTW-PT.
I have unplugged each peripheral, one by one; NAS device, NetGear Powerline, Networked Digi TV box, cordless phone. In an attempt to drill it down.
And yet I still get the drop outs.

iDNet have advised to go down the BT Engineer route, albeit, I have no confidence in BT or their Engineers, hence I use iDNet. And to be truthful, given the potential to incur a charge of £150, I am reluctant to agree to it.

I am beginning to suspect REIN interference, because the issue never happens during the weekend and always seems to kick off on a Monday, and persists through to a Friday. This is the only identified pattern.

The likelihood of all three routers being faulty, along with the supplied cabling and filters is highly unlikely. I have the router set as per iDNet's instruction and can even recite, from memory, the IP addresses, DNS gateways etc, because of the number of times I have checked, double checked and triple checked all of the settings.

I really am looking for some advice on what next to do and what to expect if an BT Engineer investigation is agreed too? I simply cannot afford to lose £150 if an Engineer were to imply that the issue is mine and not theirs. And yet, as per Nick's advice today, "if you've done everything we've asked, then you have nothing to worry about". Sadly, I don't trust BT and can imagine them trying to scab the money, just for the sake of it.

Many thanks, in advance....

Edit: More info.

[Steve]

 

Frustrating times, not sure what else you can do, it is a worry that it appears to be stable at the weekend, my fear is that BTw will find no fault as well but do you have any other choice but to get an engineer round.

[Simon]

I'm having similar issues, also with a 2200v3.  I'm currently thinking of changing the router, as I can't think what else it could be.

[RandomGeeza]

Frustrating times, not sure what else you can do, it is a worry that it appears to be stable at the weekend, my fear is that BTw will find no fault as well but do you have any other choice but to get an engineer round.

Looks like I spoke way too soon, just checked my log and found a whole spate of drop-outs this evening. So, my thoughts about it possibly being REIN from the factory behind where I live is doubtful now, as the factory is shut. 

[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:48:33
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:48:12
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:47:25
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:47:13
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:46:24
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:46:12
[Internet disconnected] Friday, April 05,2013 22:45:30
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:45:26

This really is starting to drive me crazy!!!

Have unplugged everything baring the router. The whole shabang. No phone line, printer, NAS, TV connection... will continue to monitor and may try swapping the router back to the DGN2000. Although, past experience tells me that I am pi55ing in the wind.

[RandomGeeza]

Looks like I spoke way too soon, just checked my log and found a whole spate of drop-outs this evening. So, my thoughts about it possibly being REIN from the factory behind where I live is doubtful now, as the factory is shut. 

[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:48:33
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:48:12
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:47:25
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:47:13
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:46:24
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 05,2013 22:46:12
[Internet disconnected] Friday, April 05,2013 22:45:30
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 05,2013 22:45:26

This really is starting to drive me crazy!!!

Have unplugged everything baring the router. The whole shabang. No phone line, printer, NAS, TV connection... will continue to monitor and may try swapping the router back to the DGN2000. Although, past experience tells me that I am pi55ing in the wind.

And it went abso crazy last night. Had to call 'out of hours' to see if we could test the line whilst it was happening. Frustratingly, the line tests completed, literally, nano seconds after the episode. And, as per, came back with nothing. However, the exchange test that was done was described as taking a long time to complete.

And this was with everything disconnected...?

[Internet connected] IP address: XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:57:00
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:56:47
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:55:42
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:55:32
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:54:43
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:54:36
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:54:30
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:53:54
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:53:44
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:53:32
[DHCP IP: (XXX.XXX.X.X)] to MAC address XX:XX:XX:XX:XX:XX, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:53:26
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:52:42
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:52:30
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:52:21
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:52:10
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:51:43
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:51:42
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:51:31
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Saturday, April 06,2013 01:51:02
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:50:41
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:50:29
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:49:42
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:49:30
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:48:40
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:48:31
[DSL: Down] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:47:42
[DSL: Up] Saturday, April 06,2013 01:47:30

Haven't had any further drops, on checking this morning. Again, everything unplugged, and in the Test socket...

At a loss...?

[Stevescat]

Similar disconnections happened to me, it's a nightmare. Just out of the blue when my connection is usually very stable. Bought a new router, and all seemed well. Have experienced this again but thankfully only for a day. Constant disconnections every few minutes. You say you did quiet line tests, was there noise? When I did them I could hear pops and crackles, obviously noise coming from somewhere, but where, who knows. Then all back to normal for me, OK ever since. I can only sympathise with you, hope you get a solution soon.

Steve

[Simon]

Could the timing last night suggest exchange work, perhaps? 

[Gary]

All this seems very familiar  I'm back to getting my BT mate to get logs now as BTw just want to send out a third engineer and tbh unless they are here when it happens nothings going to get done even after the last engineer suggested another lift and shift and my line transferred to a pole instead of the underground cable since I have a pole across from me as I'm right in the middle of the start of the underground cable and the end of the BT phone poles. Also having crackles on my line as well. I wonder if its the huge amount of work being done for FTTC causing this, my so called non intrusive tests actually knocked out my phone line as well 

[Gary]

Could the timing last night suggest exchange work, perhaps? 

Check Zens site, you can put in your area code and see any faults or maintenance work. http://status.zen.co.uk/broadband/

[RandomGeeza]

Similar disconnections happened to me, it's a nightmare. Just out of the blue when my connection is usually very stable. Bought a new router, and all seemed well. Have experienced this again but thankfully only for a day. Constant disconnections every few minutes. You say you did quiet line tests, was there noise? When I did them I could hear pops and crackles, obviously noise coming from somewhere, but where, who knows. Then all back to normal for me, OK ever since. I can only sympathise with you, hope you get a solution soon.

Steve

Hi, no noise on the QL Tests... as quiet as a daisy, and also did one whilst the connection threw a benny last night, again. No noise.

As for works, could be... ? Although 'out of hours' reported nothing on this, even when I asked.

Have just checked stats for the connection and have replaced the CAT5 with a bog standard lead. Have seen a jump in the Line Sync and my IP Profile...

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   10207 Kbps   1119 Kbps
Line Attenuation   36.5 dB   21.2 dB
Noise Margin   6.1 dB   6.8 dB

IP Profile now at 9.01

Looks like another waiting game to see if it goes again with the new lead, and everything unplugged... This happened last week with over 130 hours uptime and then just when I thought it was sorted it started again.

GRRRR

[RandomGeeza]

Check Zens site, you can put in your area code and see any faults or maintenance work. http://status.zen.co.uk/broadband/

As suspected, nothing reported on any of the areas checked. Thanks for the link...

[Gary]

As suspected, nothing reported on any of the areas checked. Thanks for the link...

No worries, looks like my area code has some work coming up on the 12th for a possible 4 hour period to replace a line card at Guildford which is running 'at risk' whatever that means 

[Simon]

As suspected, nothing reported on any of the areas checked. Thanks for the link...

We've experienced in the past, though, that BT don't always announce unscheduled exchange work, so don't take any such links as gospel.

[Baz]

I am no expert on this but did have similar problems a while back and although not finding out exactly the cause the things that I did,apart from the stuff you've already done and probably done again when IDNet asked, were return a new router and exchange for another ' version 2 ' model...thanks a great deal to Gary for the info about that   ... and fit a new filtered face plate even though the one I had was only 10 months old.

Since this I have had no bother at all. Thinking about when it happened and reading the posts above my local area was also getting cabinets fitted for fibre to be ready last june/july , so it may well be a cause I dont know ...good old BT eh 

[Gary]

We've experienced in the past, though, that BT don't always announce unscheduled exchange work, so don't take any such links as gospel.

I would agree with that, although right now there seems to be more issues popping up than I have seen in a while. Ageing networks cables heaving under massive amounts of data and the bad weather we have had using cheap Chinese crud. Joy... I have to admit that I always used to use adsl nation gear, but the new style faceplate for FTTC seems better, maybe it being passive and having less components is better than the active ones, who knows.

[Simon]

I would agree with that, although right now there seems to be more issues popping up than I have seen in a while. Ageing networks cables heaving under massive amounts of data and the bad weather we have had using cheap Chinese crud. Joy...

Road works... 

[Gary]

Road works... 

Lots of that around here, well not in my village but maybe the damage was done...but BT are surveying for new cabinets and readying exchanges for FTTC so that's bound to cause disruption too.

[Clive]

This used to happen to me all the time and after years of misery it turned out to be the little connector box on my window sill bringing the phone line into the house.  The connections had corroded and once  the engineer fixed it my broadband has been fine ever since. 

[Gary]

This used to happen to me all the time and after years of misery it turned out to be the little connector box on my window sill bringing the phone line into the house.  The connections had corroded and once  the engineer fixed it my broadband has been fine ever since. 

Wish mine had been that simple, everyone is at a loss 

[RandomGeeza]

Wish mine had been that simple, everyone is at a loss 

Likewise...

FTTC is already enabled here, and has been for a while, as per SamKnows info: http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMHINCK Although, I suppose it could be elsewhere in the network...??

As for roadworks, that could be a contender, but I never saw any yesterday whilst winging my way around the town.

With the bog standard ADSL lead in, I have had uptime of three hours plus... a marked improvement on yesterday. Plus, increased Sync. I wonder if it was a buggered CAT5 cable... Would the length have an impact as such? The cable was three meters, whereas Mr Bog-Standard barely reaches from filter to router?

Oh I forgot to mention, my downstairs neighbour has experienced drop outs too... In fact he's had a few this week... not in sync with mine though?

EDIT: Remembered about the neighbour.

[Steve]

I would guess the neighbour's drop outs are significant, the CAT5 is not that long so unless it's faulty I doubt it's the cause.

[Simon]

When your connection drops out, do you get the red light on the router?  Only, I didn't - the router seemed to think everything was OK, even though it had lost the connection, hence, in my case, I'm suspecting a router fault. 

[Gary]

When your connection drops out, do you get the red light on the router?  Only, I didn't - the router seemed to think everything was OK, even though it had lost the connection, hence, in my case, I'm suspecting a router fault. 

Some routers show in sync say at 0.1db but they are actually not as far as the exchange is concerned, this is what's been happening to my mine, so the router logs show nothing, Broadcom chipsets hang on for dear life so your router may show it never dropped but the exchange sees it as it did. Saying that if you have no connection I would say its a router fault as mine does not loose connection and pulls back when the snr goes up. It looks like my fault is not something that can be fixed at all. If its RFI and it seems to be its oyt of BTw remit if its caused by a neighbour so I am stuffed royally.

Best way to double check a Netgear is to re-download the firmware, hard reset the router before hand, reload the firmware, hard reset the router after and then re-enter all settings by hand not from a back up.

[Simon]

...or get a different router. 

[Gary]

...or get a different router. 

If its got a two year warranty get a rma on it. Routers are bl@ody boring really. I can think of better things to spend cash on having gone though four of em 

[RandomGeeza]

When your connection drops out, do you get the red light on the router?  Only, I didn't - the router seemed to think everything was OK, even though it had lost the connection, hence, in my case, I'm suspecting a router fault.

When it was throwing its dummy out of the pram the other night, the lights for DSL were flashing green, on and off, and the Internet light was red...

With regards to flashing the firmware. I have tried that, even put on the US NA version, as a stab in the dark, to see if that would improve things, but again, same situation, so flashed the unit back to the UK version. From what i can tell the US vs UK firmware differentiates by the number of channels the router uses to broadcast on... I tend to stick to channel 13 as it is never used by my neighbours and has, in the past, always been solid

Have just checked the stats now... uptime of 23 hours plus... almost a first...

But, this is what it does... I bet I get a few days stable and then, all hell will break loose again...?

[Steve]

Hopefully it was the CAT5 lead.

[RandomGeeza]

Hopefully it was the CAT5 lead.

Agreed, although, I have a sneaky suspicion the drops will start again tomorrow (Monday)... Which falls back on my earlier observation about it always happening on weekdays... Time will tell.

[RandomGeeza]

Spent yesterday, rewiring the whole room, trying to get some distance between all the electrical items. I.e. Cordless Phone, wifi-printer. Also put down new surge protector extensions. Now, it's a waiting game...

[Clive]

Good luck RG, we are all anxious to learn the what might be causing your problem. 

[RandomGeeza]

Likewise.

And, as per, Friday and here we go again:

[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:26:09
[DHCP IP: (XXX.XXX.X.X)] to MAC address XX.XX.XX.XX.XX.XX, Friday, April 12,2013 16:26:06
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:46
[DHCP IP: (XXX.XXX.X.X)] to MAC address XX.XX.XX.XX.XX.XX, Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:44
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:23
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:15
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:12
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:25:11
[UPnP set event:AddPortMapping] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:24:16
[UPnP set event:AddPortMapping] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:24:16
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:22:49
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:22:34
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:22:16
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:21:46
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:21:16
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:20:51
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:20:20
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:19:48
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:19:47
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:19:35
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:19:18
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:18:48
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:18:46
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:18:34
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:18:18
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:17:48
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:17:45
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:17:26
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:17:18
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:16:48
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:16:37
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:16:18
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:16:16
[DHCP IP: (XXX.XXX.X.X)] to MAC address XX.XX.XX.XX.XX.XX, Friday, April 12,2013 16:16:04
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:15:48
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:15:30
[admin login] from source XXX.XXX.X.X, Friday, April 12,2013 16:15:15
[DSL: Up] Friday, April 12,2013 16:15:08
[Internet disconnected] Friday, April 12,2013 16:14:27
[DSL: Down] Friday, April 12,2013 16:14:22

I had 76+ hours uptime. Not bad going in comparison to the last few weeks.

Seems particularly strange that yet again, it's Friday and I see a load of drops in a 15 minute time frame, exactly like last Friday. The only difference being the time it has happened.

And, as per, iDNet are not being particularly helpful. Referring back to the BT Engineer, which I simply will not agree to at this point. I cannot afford a £150 gamble.

Feels like the only thing to do, is to write to the MD and begin to look for a cheaper provider, because at least that way I can save money, whether the problem follows me or not.

You get what you pay for, except for when things go wrong with iDNet. For a premium service/price I am getting crapped on!

Really getting fed up of this now!!!! 

[miriam_idnet]

Hi RandomGeeza,

Sorry to hear of the intermittent connection problem you are experiencing. I have looked through the notes on our ticket and your posts here. 

As you know, all our tests were returning Fault Not Found (FNF) however we also passed the case over to BT for further investigation to see if their tests picked up anything different however, this was not the case, all tests FNF and they passed the case back as clear with only option to book an engineer should you wish it.

I appreciate the risk of a charge is not to be taken lightly and we normally work through standard tests with customers to rule out internal wiring, faceplate, hardware and local interference issues before passing a case for an engineer to significantly reduce the risk of the charge. I note you have carried out the following:

Tested 3 routers, 2 of which were new
Tried alternate firmware
Swapped filters, RJ11 and CAT-5
Connected the router to the test socket located behind the master socket faceplate
Turned off/unplugged all other devices namely NAS device, NetGear Powerline, Networked Digi TV box and cordless phone.
Relocated wiring to increase distance from other electronic devices
Replaced surge protector extension cables

The only other possible check you could do is to walk around your premises with a portable radio tuned to white noise on MW to see if it identifies any local interference. Beyond this, you really have exhausted every possible local check to get to the bottom of the issue locally.

I appreciate it may seem like we are simply pushing for an engineer and we do not care about your problem, I wholeheartedly assure you this is not the case. When all tests come back with no fault identified the only option we have is to suggest local checks as mentioned above and offer the engineer visit. If a customer chooses not to take the engineer appointment there is little further we can do.

Let me be clear also that the charges for engineer visits are raised by BT and are passed on to the customer at cost. We do not take any proceeds for engineer charges.

Should you choose to change your mind and wish to proceed with an engineer visit please do not hesitate to contact us, we will be happy to make the necessary arrangements for you.

Regards,

Miriam

Technical and Customer Services Manager
IDNet

[sobranie]

A friend had this seemingly unsurmountable problem.
It transpired that his neighbour had a fairly old plasma tv pushed up against the adjoining wall and when switched on it did a fairly good job of trashing my friend' router signal.
If your neighbours are not in during the weekend then 'way to go' as it were.

[Simon]

So, a solution to that might have been to move the router?

[sobranie]

So, a solution to that might have been to move the router?

To another room maybe!!
Here's just a few posts on the subject;
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/4085314-plasma-tv-interfering-with-dsl-connection-please-help.html?fpart=all&vc=1

[Steve]

So, a solution to that might have been to move the router?

Although it's the phone line and it's extensions/leads that act as the aerial, hence the reason for locating the router as near to the Master socket as possible to reduce the length of any 'aerial leads'

@Sobraine- interesting thread, thanks!

[RandomGeeza]

Cheers all for the suggestions and to Miriam for the detailed response.

Due to the location of the Master socket, plus plugs, to move the router to another location would be difficult and would mean having to use extension plugs, and longer wires which, as mentioned above, could introduce other levels of interference.

I had a lengthy conversation with Simon @ iDNet, on Friday after the major dropout and Miriam has confirmed everything that was discussed, above in her post. As I understand it, the Fault Ticket will remain open for the foreseeable and the ball is back in my court.

I've had, thus far, 72 hours up time... I've changed the router back to my legacy NetGear DGN2000 and am, again, playing a waiting game. Whilst I source some batteries for the CD/Radio player and tune into 612 kHz, and go on a REIN hunt.

With regards to neighbours interference. Albeit a good suggestion, I doubt that it may be the cause. You see, the router is positioned on an inside wall, and not a neighbouring wall. And, I know that the neighbour was out whilst the Friday daytime drops happened. To add, the TV in my bedroom, was switched off, at the wall and not on standby.

I'll keep chugging along and seriously consider the visit. I am eager to find out the route cause. Obviously, to restore my service but to also put my mind to rest.

Cheers all, again. I'll keep you posted.

[RandomGeeza]

Checked stats this morning and have noticed an increase in Attenuation... from 36.5 to 40...?

I always thought that this figure was indicative of the distance of the line... Why will that have increased?

Odd?

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   10011 kbps   1103 kbps
Line Attenuation   40.0 db   20.4 db
Noise Margin   5.6 db   5.1 db

EDIT: Add info.

[Steve]

Has any work been done on the line or at the exchange? You do see differences reported by different routers but for some reason your line now appears longer than it was, attenuation will also increase as the physical line quality reduces. The other common reason is moving from adslmax to adsl2+

[RandomGeeza]

Not that I am aware... There have been no reports of work. Both online and via iDNet's communications?

I have always been on ADSL2+ so that would not have impacted the attenuation?

I am wondering if BT have been messing about, but not reporting it, for whatever reasons they seem fit to hide behind. It ties in with the drops and now the increased line length.

Have had a pretty stable connection thus far... So, for now, I'm going to continue watching and waiting. That's about all I can do.

EDIT: Typos

[andrue]

Checked stats this morning and have noticed an increase in Attenuation... from 36.5 to 40...?

I always thought that this figure was indicative of the distance of the line... Why will that have increased?

Depends how it's calculated I suppose. Attenuation varies with frequency so a single figure has to be some kind of average. If it's an average across all the tones in use then a change of sync would change the attenuation.

[RandomGeeza]

Had another discon, this morning, about 2am-ish... On the legacy router... Confirming that this is happening across all of the routers I have tested so far. Again, I was using the Test socket, no telephone plugged in, no electronic devices nearby or on adjoining walls were turned on or on standby. In fact, I was asleep and the whole house turned off.

[miriam_idnet]

Hi RandomGeeza,

We are ready to arrange the appointment for you should you decide to go ahead, just drop a call/email to the Support Team and we will take care of it for you.

Regards,

Miriam
IDNet Support

[RandomGeeza]

Hi,

I am going to leave the appointment for now... thanks for following up.

The reason for this is: Although I have been adamant that my gear is fine. Having had the legacy router in for the last few weeks, things have stabilised somewhat. And this is confirmed with the 96 hours continuous uptime I have experienced, the most so far, this side of Feb. The few discons you may have noticed on your records, at the start of this week, were user instigated, I was trying to get the best Line Sync. So, disregarding them, the last issue I had was on the 19th, as detailed on here.

I am slowly coming to think that, maybe, the DGN2200 series of routers has been to blame.

Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time
WAN   PPPoA   15112507   22805807   0   11694   778   96:57:31
LAN   10M/100M   32627843   16618961   0   2078   12099   96:58:36
WLAN   11M/54M/130M   38232820   47579062   0   1459   1427   96:58:13

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   10023 kbps   1043 kbps
Line Attenuation   40.5 db   20.5 db
Noise Margin   4.1 db   7.3 db

I have noticed a further increase in my Attenuation, up .5 to 40.5, whereas it was always 36.5, increasing to 40 a week or so ago and now another small increase, which seems odd?

So, as a final test, I am going to try out the DGN2200 for a few days, to see if I can replicate the past few months problems. The results should speak for themselves and hopefully allow me to conclude why this has been happening...?

IGWS, I'll continue to keep this thread updated with the results. And thanks again for monitoring and following up.

[Glenn]

When I had my ADSL line, the attenuation would change throughout the year between 56/57 - 60/61 depending on weather conditions.

[Steve]

It should in theory rise in warmer weather as the resistance increases.

[andrue]

It should in theory rise in warmer weather as the resistance increases.

Although summer means less electrical interference as well. I used to be unsure of this but with my last connection (BE ADSL) I found that I could run my line at 3db throughout summer and only had to bump it up to 6db over winter. It'll be interesting to see how FTTC responds. My line has lost about 10% of its speed since installation a year ago so I'm wondering if it'll recover over the next few months.

[Steve]

So even with a higher attenuation in summer you maybe able to gain a higher sync if you can run at a lower margin.

[RandomGeeza]

Well, well.... I think we had one yesterday. Never thought I would be sooo pleased to see this happen. LOL.

The overall uptime of the unit was 20 hours, the connection was 7 hours short at 13. However, when checking the logs, they had been wiped just short of 12 hours in the past, stopping me from checking for sure. It does seem to be pointing at the DGN2200v3...

Am in the process of raising a ticket with NetGear. Have reset the unit again, to try and capture this on a log to be sure.

FYI: Attenuation has dropped again to 37, so that does appear to be unit specific and, as someone mentioned earlier, an average of conditions.

Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend a decent modem router compatible with iDNet/BT line... ? Ultimately, I foresee the NetGear going back to the vendors (again)...

EDIT: Question added

[andrue]

Technicolor aka Thompson modem/routers are reckoned to be amongst the best for handling poor connections. Also one of the NetGears was a favourite amongst BEers for the same reason but it had to be the right version. One downside of Technicolor is the UI which looks like something Fisher Price came up with (but is perfectly functional and the CLI (Command Line Interface) is very capable if you can understand it).

Ah, here we are:

http://beusergroup.co.uk/technotes/index.php?title=Routers_Netgear

"DG834/DG834G (v4 recommended as it's the only version which uses a Broadcom chipset)"

[Steve]

I wonder whether the DG834G was popular because of the DGTeam firmware and the ability to adjust the margin.

[RandomGeeza]

Just been looking at this one as a replacement. Understandably a little over spec'd but, if the reviews are anything to go by, and it gets a solid 4.5/5. Then the extra's in spec and cost will be worth it.

http://www.billion.com/product/adsl/BiPAC-7800-11n-ADSL2-Broadband-Firewall-Router-Gigabit.html

Any thoughts, as I am a little out of my comfort zone here... So, any advice would be appreciated.

[Steve]

It is a well regarded router, I've only run it on adslmax and FTTC so no experience on adsl2+, they do come up on Ebay from time to time. My other thought was what Dealz has done is use a hacked Huwaeii HG612 as an adsl2+ modem (Ebay again) but you need a router that accepts a WAN input the DGN2200 I don't think will.

[Gary]

I wonder whether the DG834G was popular because of the DGTeam firmware and the ability to adjust the margin.

Cheap reliable no thrills router, Steve, as well. If Billion did a Dual band adsl router that was as well regarded I would snap one up. I'm trying out the D6300 now and the range and thoughput is fantastic, Justina gets a steady 72Mbps though out the house on her old sensation on 2.4Ghz in Mixed mode (145Mbps) as we still have a few 802.11.g only devices.  I am only using it because it was free.

I would no longer buy a Netgear router the DGND4000 went back after a heat sync fell off which locked 5Ghz, up a known issue I found out about on an Italian board and am seeing more turn up now on the UK boards with the same problem. <sigh> Netgear QC is non existent. The 3700v2, 4000 and 6300 all have wan ports for fibre or cable, I was surprised to find out on the 2200 uses one of the The Ethernet ports as a wan port so it can be done.

[Simon]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid. 

[Gary]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid. 

Lots of them logged on the Netgear site Simon, with that fault. I would use the 7800N, but I use the 5Ghz band to much and mixing and matching routers and modems becomes tedious as every manufacturer seems to have bad points, I have seen complaints of the 7800N failing because one of the joints does not stand the test of time, although Billions support seems to be very good and they will replace sometimes out of warranty which Netgear never would. I'll look at things again when and if my line becomes stable, the Billion BiPAC 7800DXL looks good but at that price with 802.11.ac phones now on the market I'm looking to future proof. Also I can see better things to do with my money, like saving it and not spending it on anything to do with computers right now

[RandomGeeza]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid.

Your comment has stuck with me, and... I too have found a few threads on NetGear's website re: discons. No real fixes or suggestions on how to bypass/correct/resolve. So, they weren't of much help. Plus, I really needed to drill this down myself. I still not 100% but, I ain't far short of it atm.

Having gone through this, I have certainly learned a hell of a lot. So, ...every cloud, da, da dar...

Defo, getting the Billions too... but not this week. Sadly, my funds don't permit it. But soon, very soon...

[RandomGeeza]

So for the last 100+ hours, everything has been fine and dandy. In fact, I've had a stable few weeks truth be told. I tweaked the SNR and things became stable as a rock. This will be evident on iDNet's records, where they will identify a number of user instigated recon's as I tested the different settings, a week or two ago. I have continually checked the telnet stats since my tweaks, and the CRCs / LOSs have been at an acceptable level. There have been NO reasons to make any other changes (this is on the DGN2200 btw), ergo I haven't.

That is... until today, when the web disconnects... with no reasoning why... I was actually surfing at the time. So I fired up the stats, and found that my SNR has been increased to 9 from a steady 5 - 6 and the attenuation has increased again, from 36 - 38.

I'm wondering if it's to do with the hot weather and the cables expanding or whether BT, in their infinite wisdom, have been tinkering.

I have read that they [BT] are guilty of manually setting the SNR at the exchange if and when they feel like it. In response, I have telnetted back into the router and set the SNR back to 5 - 6db to increase my Sync. And will monitor this going forward.

Any advice would be appreciated on this. As I do not want to **** them off and end up with an 18db SNR and a terrible sync rate.

[Steve]

Honestly I don't know whether you tinkering with the margin has along term affect, however I thought on adsl2+ with BT you couldn't self adjust anyway, only on adslmax and LLU was it possible.

[RandomGeeza]

It is possible using the Modfs firmware for the DGN2200 or using the Telnet enabler commands and using Terminal on the DGN2000 (OSX). I also understand the Billions allows you to do this too, on a hidden menu. And the results have been staggering in all honesty.

When trying it out for the first time, I saw an increase of 3MBp/s from an average of 7-8 on the download throughput up to nearly 11. Although, it did make the line unstable. Hence, I went for a much more conservative adjustment. Which saw a steady line, the steadiest thus far and a small increase of 1MBp/s. And yet, as mentioned above, after almost three weeks of no random discons, a good sync and throughput, it magically disconnects, and my natural SNR is pushed up to 9db from 6db.

It stinks of BT's intervention or their DLM system intervening. I doubt it is the DLM however, as I would have expected gradual rises over a period of time and not a jump of 3db in a moment, as it did yesterday. Especially as the errors were/continue to be low.

CRC's are 21 p/hr on average (DL). And 1.2 p/hr (UL).
There are no LOS errors. IMHO steady as a rock.

This makes me wonder if they [BT] have, all along, been fann*ing around in the background, as I always suspected. Blaming everyone but themselves.

[Steve]

I thought the DLM intervention on adsl variants was in 3db increments.

[Gary]

I thought the DLM intervention on adsl variants was in 3db increments.

You can end up with a snr of 20db not 21 so maybe not 3db increments the higher it gets.

[Steve]

You can end up with a snr of 20db not 21 so maybe not 3db increments the higher it gets.

If the downstream sync becomes 'banded' then the margin will rise to whatever the excess is.

[RandomGeeza]

If the DLM has increased the margin, which in my case it did jump by three, then my question is why...? Given the stats are all fine, and they have been for the last few weeks? In fact, this has probably been the best three weeks I have had this side of late Feb 2013. It doesn't make sense to me?

Especially since, when the proverbial was hitting the fan the SNR was steady at 6db, and yet my router was on an off like a pro's pants. The only difference in stats, during the "on off" period, was attenuation which was up and down, fluctuating between 36 and 41. However, once things settle down and remain settled, the DLM suddenly decides to up the SNR, based on .....?

I also thought or understood the maximum SNR is 18 and that it doesn't go any higher, is that correct...?

[Steve]

The margin shown by the router will go higher than the DLM permitted maximum if the sync is locked ie a banded adsl2+ profile, the sync is lower than it should be therefore there is excess margin available.

Why has it leapt to 9 I wonder, is that anything to do with manipulating the margin at the router, just a guess

[Gary]

If the downstream sync becomes 'banded' then the margin will rise to whatever the excess is.

when my line first went bad I had a noise margin of 20db but my profile was not banded, Steve. Then again even though I have a 5db noise swing and loss of throughput my noise margin wont go up to 9bd 

[RandomGeeza]

Why has it leapt to 9 I wonder, is that anything to do with manipulating the margin at the router, just a guess

Potentially, although, it seems as though the DLM isn't happy unless the line is stressing and unstable. As the last few weeks have demonstrated a stable connection. And then last night, following the DLM's changes a random discon happened again, at around about 6-7pm. Could the DLM be at fault? 

Quick question: what is 'banded' ADSL2? And, is this set on all DLM managed lines? I'm assuming it's graded setting... How do you know if you are or not... (Apologies for all the questions, I'm trying to understand all of this)

Have set the margin back to 100% and my stats are:

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9047 Kbps   1085 Kbps
Line Attenuation   37.5 dB   21.8 dB
Noise Margin   9.3 dB   6.3 dB

EDIT: Question added. Info added.

[RandomGeeza]

To add further insult to injury. Having reset everything back to normal, I have given it a few hours to see what the CRCs are etc... in comparison to how it was previously with my tweaks. And, as suspected, under BT's forced settings things have not improved. In fact the error rate is greater p/hr on average.

Which leads me to believe that they [BT] really are a bunch of ......... .........., who have no idea and are happy taking anyone's money, whether face to face or through third parties, simply ripping them off!!!! God, I hate them!

However, I am going to lay patience on this one, as hard as it will be, allowing a few days to pass, hopefully with no random discons (as that will not help my situation) and see if the SNR drops back to 6.

Given all of this, I am sure that I am dealing with cr*ppy external wiring between here and the exchange and that this is a problem I am going to have to live with... or move... The latter option appealing, because other issues with my current location are also beginning to get on my t*ts. Anywho, I rant and I digress.... oooops.       

Total time = 11 hours 1 min 49 sec
FEC:            66148           0
CRC:            259             50
ES:             169             30
SES:            0               0
UAS:            35              35
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0

[RandomGeeza]

If this is normal ((and even more normal when replicated across different routers), see upstream SNR)) then I will happily pay £150 to get it fixed... I suspect it isn't however...

Now, can we finally get it fixed and get my service back to normal.....!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

Today's LOS = 30+

[RandomGeeza]

Have finally found the problem... And it is external. Well, at least it doesn't fall inside of my property and therefore will not incur a charge.

Cutting a long story short; As soon as you plug either the corded or cordless phone into the line, both extension, master and/or test socket, the ADSL goes beserk. As per the screen grab on the previous post and yes, this happens across several different filters, CAT5 cables, two routers (un-tweaked) and a cordless/corded phone. And through all available sockets. I can replicate the problem easily.

Frustratingly for us, it has taken the service to get this bad before it became obvious...

Thankfully, it leaves me 99.99% confident to now arrange for an engineer. iDNet you will be hearing from me at 9am sharp on Monday...

Let's get this fixed. FINALLY!!!



EDIT: Typo.

[Simon]

Good luck!  Hope things get sorted soon.   

[RandomGeeza]

Good luck!  Hope things get sorted soon.   

Thanks...

[RandomGeeza]

Engineer booked for today. However, on trying to replicate the problem, I have been unable too? Although my stats are still questionable and my Up is continually fluctuating, albeit nowhere near as bad as it was over the weekend...?

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9213 Kbps   444 Kbps
Line Attenuation   37.5 dB   21.8 dB
Noise Margin   9.3 dB   30.3 dB

I've also lost 2/3 of my upload capacity as a result of the weekend's mysterious situation, which now seems locked in at 444 Kbp/s?

[RandomGeeza]

Hmmmm.

Engineer has been and took about three hours to sort though the tests etc. And, thankfully, two faults were found. A lower than normal AC and noise on the line. All of which were outside of my remit and therefore charge free! PHEW!

Anywho, he was a pleasant guy, who answered my questions, whilst I enquired into how, what, when and where.

It later transpired that the issue was suspected to be within 30 meters of my property and following him tinkering about in the meter cupboard, and on the roadside, where the apartment block line comes in, he advised that he had changed the wiring and the gel grips and that the noise was now gone. And, that this should result in the broadband correcting itself.

He has reset my Profile and I have seen a slight improvement on my stats. But nothing anywhere near as good as I was getting pre issue / pre this weekend, especially on the Up.

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9575 Kbps   443 Kbps
Line Attenuation   38.0 dB   22.1 dB
Noise Margin   6.9 dB   16.6 dB

I understand that I am back on training for ten days, and I am hoping that my stats will improve with time.

Previous to this situation I was averaging:

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9500 Kbps   1100 Kbps
Line Attenuation   36.0 dB   22.0 dB
Noise Margin   6.0 dB   6.0 dB

I am glad that things have started to improve and glad that it has been charge free. Although, I am still not convinced that everything is optimised. And the engineer's insistence that Up was not considered in any of these fixes, which is a little problematic, as I do upload large files quite regularly... and to lose 2/3's up is annoying...

I suppose time will tell .... I'm also interested to learn of the details of his report via iDNet, during tomorrow's catch up.

[RandomGeeza]

It ISN'T fixed....? 

Three random discons last night... 3.46am, 3.50am and 4.37am...

Here we go again...?

[RandomGeeza]

All has been quiet... Thankfully.

Have achieved 256 hours continuous uptime, a first in ages!!!! And finally, this evening, following a spec request from iDNet to BT today, to correct my upstream SNR, things are back to normal.

It has only taken four months of trial, error, anger, frustration, contempt and ultimately, persistence and the problem is now resolved.

I think we can close this thread now. PHEW!

[Steve]

Marvellous, we never usually close threads but in the words of an old friend, time for dinner!

[RandomGeeza]

Marvellous, we never usually close threads but in the words of an old friend, time for dinner!

More like a pint.... or five... Cheers!