Random disconnections from the internet

[Steve]

I wonder whether the DG834G was popular because of the DGTeam firmware and the ability to adjust the margin.

[RandomGeeza]

Just been looking at this one as a replacement. Understandably a little over spec'd but, if the reviews are anything to go by, and it gets a solid 4.5/5. Then the extra's in spec and cost will be worth it.

http://www.billion.com/product/adsl/BiPAC-7800-11n-ADSL2-Broadband-Firewall-Router-Gigabit.html

Any thoughts, as I am a little out of my comfort zone here... So, any advice would be appreciated.

[Steve]

It is a well regarded router, I've only run it on adslmax and FTTC so no experience on adsl2+, they do come up on Ebay from time to time. My other thought was what Dealz has done is use a hacked Huwaeii HG612 as an adsl2+ modem (Ebay again) but you need a router that accepts a WAN input the DGN2200 I don't think will.

[Gary]

I wonder whether the DG834G was popular because of the DGTeam firmware and the ability to adjust the margin.

Cheap reliable no thrills router, Steve, as well. If Billion did a Dual band adsl router that was as well regarded I would snap one up. I'm trying out the D6300 now and the range and thoughput is fantastic, Justina gets a steady 72Mbps though out the house on her old sensation on 2.4Ghz in Mixed mode (145Mbps) as we still have a few 802.11.g only devices.  I am only using it because it was free.

I would no longer buy a Netgear router the DGND4000 went back after a heat sync fell off which locked 5Ghz, up a known issue I found out about on an Italian board and am seeing more turn up now on the UK boards with the same problem. <sigh> Netgear QC is non existent. The 3700v2, 4000 and 6300 all have wan ports for fibre or cable, I was surprised to find out on the 2200 uses one of the The Ethernet ports as a wan port so it can be done.

[Simon]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid. 

[Gary]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid. 

Lots of them logged on the Netgear site Simon, with that fault. I would use the 7800N, but I use the 5Ghz band to much and mixing and matching routers and modems becomes tedious as every manufacturer seems to have bad points, I have seen complaints of the 7800N failing because one of the joints does not stand the test of time, although Billions support seems to be very good and they will replace sometimes out of warranty which Netgear never would. I'll look at things again when and if my line becomes stable, the Billion BiPAC 7800DXL looks good but at that price with 802.11.ac phones now on the market I'm looking to future proof. Also I can see better things to do with my money, like saving it and not spending it on anything to do with computers right now

[RandomGeeza]

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I also had random disconnections with the DGN2200v3.  I now have a Billion 7800N, courtesy of a friend, and the connection now seems solid.

Your comment has stuck with me, and... I too have found a few threads on NetGear's website re: discons. No real fixes or suggestions on how to bypass/correct/resolve. So, they weren't of much help. Plus, I really needed to drill this down myself. I still not 100% but, I ain't far short of it atm.

Having gone through this, I have certainly learned a hell of a lot. So, ...every cloud, da, da dar...

Defo, getting the Billions too... but not this week. Sadly, my funds don't permit it. But soon, very soon...

[RandomGeeza]

So for the last 100+ hours, everything has been fine and dandy. In fact, I've had a stable few weeks truth be told. I tweaked the SNR and things became stable as a rock. This will be evident on iDNet's records, where they will identify a number of user instigated recon's as I tested the different settings, a week or two ago. I have continually checked the telnet stats since my tweaks, and the CRCs / LOSs have been at an acceptable level. There have been NO reasons to make any other changes (this is on the DGN2200 btw), ergo I haven't.

That is... until today, when the web disconnects... with no reasoning why... I was actually surfing at the time. So I fired up the stats, and found that my SNR has been increased to 9 from a steady 5 - 6 and the attenuation has increased again, from 36 - 38.

I'm wondering if it's to do with the hot weather and the cables expanding or whether BT, in their infinite wisdom, have been tinkering.

I have read that they [BT] are guilty of manually setting the SNR at the exchange if and when they feel like it. In response, I have telnetted back into the router and set the SNR back to 5 - 6db to increase my Sync. And will monitor this going forward.

Any advice would be appreciated on this. As I do not want to **** them off and end up with an 18db SNR and a terrible sync rate.

[Steve]

Honestly I don't know whether you tinkering with the margin has along term affect, however I thought on adsl2+ with BT you couldn't self adjust anyway, only on adslmax and LLU was it possible.

[RandomGeeza]

It is possible using the Modfs firmware for the DGN2200 or using the Telnet enabler commands and using Terminal on the DGN2000 (OSX). I also understand the Billions allows you to do this too, on a hidden menu. And the results have been staggering in all honesty.

When trying it out for the first time, I saw an increase of 3MBp/s from an average of 7-8 on the download throughput up to nearly 11. Although, it did make the line unstable. Hence, I went for a much more conservative adjustment. Which saw a steady line, the steadiest thus far and a small increase of 1MBp/s. And yet, as mentioned above, after almost three weeks of no random discons, a good sync and throughput, it magically disconnects, and my natural SNR is pushed up to 9db from 6db.

It stinks of BT's intervention or their DLM system intervening. I doubt it is the DLM however, as I would have expected gradual rises over a period of time and not a jump of 3db in a moment, as it did yesterday. Especially as the errors were/continue to be low.

CRC's are 21 p/hr on average (DL). And 1.2 p/hr (UL).
There are no LOS errors. IMHO steady as a rock.

This makes me wonder if they [BT] have, all along, been fann*ing around in the background, as I always suspected. Blaming everyone but themselves.

[Steve]

I thought the DLM intervention on adsl variants was in 3db increments.

[Gary]

I thought the DLM intervention on adsl variants was in 3db increments.

You can end up with a snr of 20db not 21 so maybe not 3db increments the higher it gets.

[Steve]

You can end up with a snr of 20db not 21 so maybe not 3db increments the higher it gets.

If the downstream sync becomes 'banded' then the margin will rise to whatever the excess is.

[RandomGeeza]

If the DLM has increased the margin, which in my case it did jump by three, then my question is why...? Given the stats are all fine, and they have been for the last few weeks? In fact, this has probably been the best three weeks I have had this side of late Feb 2013. It doesn't make sense to me?

Especially since, when the proverbial was hitting the fan the SNR was steady at 6db, and yet my router was on an off like a pro's pants. The only difference in stats, during the "on off" period, was attenuation which was up and down, fluctuating between 36 and 41. However, once things settle down and remain settled, the DLM suddenly decides to up the SNR, based on .....?

I also thought or understood the maximum SNR is 18 and that it doesn't go any higher, is that correct...?

[Steve]

The margin shown by the router will go higher than the DLM permitted maximum if the sync is locked ie a banded adsl2+ profile, the sync is lower than it should be therefore there is excess margin available.

Why has it leapt to 9 I wonder, is that anything to do with manipulating the margin at the router, just a guess

[Gary]

If the downstream sync becomes 'banded' then the margin will rise to whatever the excess is.

when my line first went bad I had a noise margin of 20db but my profile was not banded, Steve. Then again even though I have a 5db noise swing and loss of throughput my noise margin wont go up to 9bd 

[RandomGeeza]

Why has it leapt to 9 I wonder, is that anything to do with manipulating the margin at the router, just a guess

Potentially, although, it seems as though the DLM isn't happy unless the line is stressing and unstable. As the last few weeks have demonstrated a stable connection. And then last night, following the DLM's changes a random discon happened again, at around about 6-7pm. Could the DLM be at fault? 

Quick question: what is 'banded' ADSL2? And, is this set on all DLM managed lines? I'm assuming it's graded setting... How do you know if you are or not... (Apologies for all the questions, I'm trying to understand all of this)

Have set the margin back to 100% and my stats are:

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9047 Kbps   1085 Kbps
Line Attenuation   37.5 dB   21.8 dB
Noise Margin   9.3 dB   6.3 dB

EDIT: Question added. Info added.

[RandomGeeza]

To add further insult to injury. Having reset everything back to normal, I have given it a few hours to see what the CRCs are etc... in comparison to how it was previously with my tweaks. And, as suspected, under BT's forced settings things have not improved. In fact the error rate is greater p/hr on average.

Which leads me to believe that they [BT] really are a bunch of ......... .........., who have no idea and are happy taking anyone's money, whether face to face or through third parties, simply ripping them off!!!! God, I hate them!

However, I am going to lay patience on this one, as hard as it will be, allowing a few days to pass, hopefully with no random discons (as that will not help my situation) and see if the SNR drops back to 6.

Given all of this, I am sure that I am dealing with cr*ppy external wiring between here and the exchange and that this is a problem I am going to have to live with... or move... The latter option appealing, because other issues with my current location are also beginning to get on my t*ts. Anywho, I rant and I digress.... oooops.       

Total time = 11 hours 1 min 49 sec
FEC:            66148           0
CRC:            259             50
ES:             169             30
SES:            0               0
UAS:            35              35
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0

[RandomGeeza]

If this is normal ((and even more normal when replicated across different routers), see upstream SNR)) then I will happily pay £150 to get it fixed... I suspect it isn't however...

Now, can we finally get it fixed and get my service back to normal.....!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

Today's LOS = 30+

[RandomGeeza]

Have finally found the problem... And it is external. Well, at least it doesn't fall inside of my property and therefore will not incur a charge.

Cutting a long story short; As soon as you plug either the corded or cordless phone into the line, both extension, master and/or test socket, the ADSL goes beserk. As per the screen grab on the previous post and yes, this happens across several different filters, CAT5 cables, two routers (un-tweaked) and a cordless/corded phone. And through all available sockets. I can replicate the problem easily.

Frustratingly for us, it has taken the service to get this bad before it became obvious...

Thankfully, it leaves me 99.99% confident to now arrange for an engineer. iDNet you will be hearing from me at 9am sharp on Monday...

Let's get this fixed. FINALLY!!!



EDIT: Typo.

[Simon]

Good luck!  Hope things get sorted soon.   

[RandomGeeza]

Good luck!  Hope things get sorted soon.   

Thanks...

[RandomGeeza]

Engineer booked for today. However, on trying to replicate the problem, I have been unable too? Although my stats are still questionable and my Up is continually fluctuating, albeit nowhere near as bad as it was over the weekend...?

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9213 Kbps   444 Kbps
Line Attenuation   37.5 dB   21.8 dB
Noise Margin   9.3 dB   30.3 dB

I've also lost 2/3 of my upload capacity as a result of the weekend's mysterious situation, which now seems locked in at 444 Kbp/s?

[RandomGeeza]

Hmmmm.

Engineer has been and took about three hours to sort though the tests etc. And, thankfully, two faults were found. A lower than normal AC and noise on the line. All of which were outside of my remit and therefore charge free! PHEW!

Anywho, he was a pleasant guy, who answered my questions, whilst I enquired into how, what, when and where.

It later transpired that the issue was suspected to be within 30 meters of my property and following him tinkering about in the meter cupboard, and on the roadside, where the apartment block line comes in, he advised that he had changed the wiring and the gel grips and that the noise was now gone. And, that this should result in the broadband correcting itself.

He has reset my Profile and I have seen a slight improvement on my stats. But nothing anywhere near as good as I was getting pre issue / pre this weekend, especially on the Up.

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9575 Kbps   443 Kbps
Line Attenuation   38.0 dB   22.1 dB
Noise Margin   6.9 dB   16.6 dB

I understand that I am back on training for ten days, and I am hoping that my stats will improve with time.

Previous to this situation I was averaging:

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Link Rate   9500 Kbps   1100 Kbps
Line Attenuation   36.0 dB   22.0 dB
Noise Margin   6.0 dB   6.0 dB

I am glad that things have started to improve and glad that it has been charge free. Although, I am still not convinced that everything is optimised. And the engineer's insistence that Up was not considered in any of these fixes, which is a little problematic, as I do upload large files quite regularly... and to lose 2/3's up is annoying...

I suppose time will tell .... I'm also interested to learn of the details of his report via iDNet, during tomorrow's catch up.

[RandomGeeza]

It ISN'T fixed....? 

Three random discons last night... 3.46am, 3.50am and 4.37am...

Here we go again...?