Help!

daveygravey · Jul 17, 2007, 20:11:15

Hi Guys, I'm new to this forum so you'll have to bear with me

Right I'm looking to migrate to IDNet from Nildram, I have my MAC code and am all set to go apart from ONE tiny problem.

I want to be on the Home 2000 package but to my suprise (when speaking to IDNet) dont have a line that supports 2MB/s this is strange because:

1.) with my current ISP (Nildram) I average ~5.5MB/s dl and ~350-400 KB/s ul
2.) My previous line speed was 2Mb/s

I'm not that clued up on the technical side of ADSL so I'm kinda relying on you guys to point me in the right direction.

I have a BT ADSL filter fitted @ the master socket + the phone cable running from my house is a brand new copper jobby, I saw a BT engineer fit it!

My ADSL status for MAX

I'm not sure if the info above is good/bad, any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Dave P

DorsetBoy · Jul 17, 2007, 20:21:22

Hi daveygravey and welcome to Idnetters,

I don't know why they say that at all,your line should have no problem with 2mb fixed rate service.

At present you have a Max service,the line is a bit noisy which is why you have interleaving on and you could run Max again for the same price as the Home 2000.

Personally I would call them again and ask for an explanation,give the details you posted here and see what they say.

Lance · Jul 17, 2007, 21:09:58

Welcome to the forum, daveygravey

I'm not sure why the line is marked as unsuitable for the fixed rate either!

You sync rate, 8128kbps, is the highest available on a BT line at present and as such you should get a nice stable connection from a ADSL Max package, rather than the fixed speed Home 2000 package.

Basically, if you go for the Home Max package (personally, with your stats you would be crazy not to!) you will get a speed 4 times faster than the Home 2000 package. You will also get the faster upload speed.

The interleaving which dorsetboy mentions above is only an issue if you are a online gamer, and you can request for it to be turned off.

If you have any further questions give us a shout!

Lance

daveygravey · Jul 17, 2007, 21:30:02

Thanks for the advice guys, I think I'll go for the 8meg service - after I've got BT to pull their finger out and amend their database!

Dave P

Lance · Jul 17, 2007, 21:33:15

Hopefully, BT won't need to amend their database to allow you onto a Max service, but best speak to CS to confirm!

DorsetBoy · Jul 18, 2007, 08:59:10

The interleaving which dorsetboy mentions above is only an issue if you are a online gamer, and you can request for it to be turned off.

But combined with an snr of13db on a line of that length and those errors would indicate a fair bit of noise,which if cured would mean more speed.

Lance · Jul 18, 2007, 09:07:38

Quote from: DorsetBoy on Jul 18, 2007, 08:59:10
But combined with an snr of13db on a line of that length and those errors would indicate a fair bit of noise,which if cured would mean more speed.

But would the noise margin not be that high because he is synced at 8128kbps (the maximum) and therefore the margin does not need to be decreased any further?

When it comes to the errors, I don't really know if that is good or bad! I know some error counts can run to over a million counts without there actually being an problem. But you could well be right!

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 09:29:13

Hi Davey

We meet again.

There's a slight conflict in your stats. If you have interleaving on, as the router is indicating, you shouldn't be able to sync at 8128, the max should be 7616. This leads me to wonder if you have interleaving on but without any error correcttion. If you do, it's highly unusual, but it could possibly explain BT getting confused about what your line can handle.

Talk to support, armed with your stats and a BT speed test. I'm sure they will be able to sort things out for you.

daveygravey · Jul 18, 2007, 09:47:38

Cheers fellas,

Out of experience, what would you say was the quickest way to get in touch with BT support, in the past I've been on the phone for hours getting thrown around various different departments!

Cheers

Dave

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 09:59:52

Hi Dave

Are you with BT then? I thought it was Nildram??

From what I've seen here and on TB, you have a database error on the line. I'd go down the road of talking either to IDNet support, explain the problem to them, give them your stats and let them take it up with BT, or drop Mr Saffron (Andrew Ferguson) a PM on TB. He has a contact at BT and can generally get these issues resolved quickly. If you try and sort it direct with BT, I suspect you will have aged greatly before you get them to understand what it is you are asking for.

daveygravey · Jul 18, 2007, 10:12:38

Thanks Rik,

I am with Nildram but have tried to resolve issues via them before... and it's a slow process, I've emailed Mr Saffron and I sent a query to IDNet last night, so hopefully somebody can get the wheels in motion

I have to say the response I have received from both this forum and TB has been excellent.

Cheers for all of the help.

Dave P

DorsetBoy · Jul 18, 2007, 10:14:36

The statement by BT that interleaving reduces the max synch to 7616 appears to have been well and truly proven incorrect.
There are large numbers of users that have interleaving on yet achieve the max synch of 8128 which just adds to the confusion that is ADSL MAX.

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 10:16:23

Hi Dave

Saffy is very helpful in resolving this sort of issue, I wish he'd share his contact(s) with the rest of us.

There's definitely no point in you talking to BT yourself. You'd not only age greatly, but probably have retired before you got anywhere with them.

I'm still curious about your apparent interleaving, though. I'll have to throw a spare router in the car and pop up.

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 10:28:35

Quote from: DorsetBoy on Jul 18, 2007, 10:14:36
The statement by BT that interleaving reduces the max synch to 7616 appears to have been well and truly proven incorrect.

It's still quoted as the theoretical maximum though, Dorset. I am beginning to form my own theory which is that BT are sometimes using interleaving without the underlying error correction. It has always been the latter which actually dropped the maximum sync speed, so it's the only thing I can think of to explain what we're seeing. Of course, I can't explain the why of it...

daveygravey · Jul 18, 2007, 10:29:36

I have a linksys router knocking about somewhere, I think I'll plug that in tonight and see what happens

- haha a cup of tea will be waiting Rik

Just out of interest... I did a BT speed test this morning, the results are below.

'Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 7150 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 6712 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.'

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Dave

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 10:35:11

Thoughts? Well, aside from "You jammy..."

(I have a 2500 profile - lots of aluminium in MK!)

You're getting the correct profile for your sync speed (7150 can only be achieved at 8128), so that would suggest the line is stable. Like Lance, I think your noise margin just reflects the fact that you have plenty of spare. Your throughput is about as high as it can be, which says that you are using an optimum MTU/RWIN setting.

Basically, you can sit back and enjoy it - once BT have sorted the database out. It's a good move, imo, to get out from Nildram before Tiscali take over.

daveygravey · Jul 18, 2007, 11:59:48

Just had a reply from Andrew, he's passed on my info to the relevant BT people and hopefully their database should be updated within the next few days

Dave P

Rik · Jul 18, 2007, 12:01:45

Good news, Dave. We look forward to seeing you amongst us.

daveygravey · Jul 19, 2007, 16:30:51

Guys,

Just out of interest... when we moved over to the MAX service we had all sorts of problems with noise on the line, so much so we could barely hold a conversation via telephone. I've just been reading up about MSR (this being determined over a period of 10days) I'm kinda thinking that my Fault Threshold Rate was set when we were having this 'noise' problem hence the <512 line rating!?

Tell me if I'm talking rubbish!

* daveygravey muses some more :]

Dave

Rik · Jul 19, 2007, 16:34:02

Hi Dave

Nildram used to post MSR/FTR on the accounts page, have you looked. If it is set unreasonably low, you can ask IDNet to instigate a new period of training after your migration. TBH, it doesn't tend to affect anything unless you get a significant fault.

daveygravey · Jul 19, 2007, 16:38:16

Hey Rick,

Am I right in thinking that my email to Mr Saffron will amend this? or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Cheers,

Dave P

Rik · Jul 19, 2007, 17:03:14

Wrong tree, Dave.

Saffy will get the checker database amended so that you can get the 8Mbps connection. MSR/FTR is an 'internal' thing to BTw, and is only, effectively, used to determine whether a fault can be reported.

daveygravey · Jul 19, 2007, 18:51:07

haha I thought I might be, I had this picture in my mind that BT build a profile of your line within that 10day period and log this in a database... I was presuming that the information help within this database was wrong because of my noisey line (it's not noisey anymore) 'n that's why whenever I try and regrade/move isp my line is rated at <512

Rik · Jul 20, 2007, 08:11:19

BT do build a picture of the line and use that to set MSR/FTR, plus target noise margin, interleaving and error correction. That's used to manage the line day-to-day. Separately, there is a simple database used by sales which indicates, sometimes incorrectly, what your line is capable of. That's the one which is causing you problems right now. There is some feedback to that from the DLM software, but I'm not sure what the mechanism is. It's possible that the line fault resulted in the low entry, but it may just be human error.

daveygravey · Jul 24, 2007, 13:07:00

Hi guys,

Just need a quick bit of info... right, given the specs of my line I should be able to get 8meg MAX adsl...

My BT line profile is still incorrect

- If I place an order with IDNet, with my router stats, will they be able to move things along for me? - I'm conscious that my MAC code expires after 30days

Cheers

Dave P

Rik · Jul 24, 2007, 15:15:51

Best bet is to talk to support, explain the problem and quote your stats, Dave. Hopefully, they'll know a way round this.

daveygravey · Jul 25, 2007, 11:47:40

My Migration is underway!

Cheers for all of your help chaps

Rik · Jul 25, 2007, 11:51:51

I take it that support thought they could overcome the database, Dave? Good news, I'll fix you up with a parking space and a recliner in the back room.

Lance · Jul 25, 2007, 12:23:33

Great news Dave!

ps I'll have a new recliner - you can have my old one!

daveygravey · Jul 25, 2007, 12:38:33

I sent an email to support yesterday and they told me I can switch my current MAX connection to IDNet with no problems - from this they can chase BT regarding their incorrect database information.

Interestingly I've just done a 'www.btwholesale.com/getbroadband' check and it's given me the following:

'Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a line rate up to 2Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line should be able to support a potential ADSL Max broadband line rate of 500Kbps or greater.'

Still not quite correct, but I guess we're getting there.

BT seem to think I'm miles away from the exchange, when, in-fact, I'm only 800m away

Rik · Jul 25, 2007, 12:41:49

Quote from: daveygravey on Jul 25, 2007, 12:38:33
'Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a line rate up to 2Mbps.

I suspect that the fixed-rate speed is the important one, the Max figure has always been an estimate and probably isn't used by BT to determine supply.

QuoteBT seem to think I'm miles away from the exchange, when, in-fact, I'm only 800m away

It could be, of course, that you do have miles of cable between you and the exchange...

Your attenuation suggests 2-2.6km.