Increasing consistent small packet loss

[Steve]

I think the issue highlighted by Tacitus is an individual isolated problem rather than the one  experienced by many IDNet FTTC users . It does highlight the difficulty in providing a solution and also shows what a damaging effect a small loss can have.

[Technical Ben]

I suppose. But as said, if BT fail to acknowledge it and the problem is on their side, it's not going to get sorted. If it's due to their own opinion or due to the technical limits (teething problems ), they just fail to accept any reports? If it is on IDNets side of the line, then I guess FTTC demands a rather large infrastructure, and I wonder if the smaller firms can keep up.

[zappaDPJ]

The packet loss seen on IDNet's TBBQMs is just a symptom of a bigger problem i.e. there's currently very little packet loss to be seen but my throughput is so erratic tonight BBC iPlayer keeps reporting that there is insufficient bandwidth to view the content. As far as I recall this is the first time I've seem this happen during the weekend which suggests to me that the problems within IDNet's network are getting worse not better.

[Steve]

Perhaps I'm wrong but you'd expect network usage to be relatively low on a Saturday night, I wonder what BTs upto although I can't see any issues declared anywhere!

[Gary]

The packet loss seen on IDNet's TBBQMs is just a symptom of a bigger problem i.e. there's currently very little packet loss to be seen but my throughput is so erratic tonight BBC iPlayer keeps reporting that there is insufficient bandwidth to view the content. As far as I recall this is the first time I've seem this happen during the weekend which suggests to me that the problems within IDNet's network are getting worse not better.

Speeds have been fine this end tonight, no loss at all, so not sure whats going on Zap  I have found pages are loading faster too, which is a change as things have been slow for well for ages. Downloading an HD movie or playing online has been no issue, thats not to say it wont be though at a later point, and that's another issue, waiting for it to fail again, as it always seems to at some point. Thats not what I am paying a premium for.

I really think a kind of critical mass of FTTC customers and business customers is occurring and juggling bandwidth is getting to be difficult, and who knows but I'm sure you cant keep buying more if the income is not giving enough profit and cash to expand the network at the same time and pay for what you have running. That's just a guess and I could be way offline, but really I'm lost long term with this thread, this issue and customers going in circles when we can't see inside IDNet to know what's happening with them, or openreach...

[zappaDPJ]

If this was something local to me surely it would be affecting other users in my area? My neighbour is on a 40/10Mbp/s BT Infinity infinity connection and while I was having problems he was getting 37.5/9.5Mbp/s. I know this for sure because he allowed me to check his connection.

This was typical of what I was getting at around 10:30pm this evening...



This is what my TBBQM was showing at that time...



This is what I am getting now...



The packet loss visible on my TBBQM is always directly proportional to a drop in throughput. It is 100% predictable.

[Steve]

Looking at the timing of the two speedtest and relating them to the graph, apart from the packet loss previously mentioned the first to me looks like to have been taken when the connection is under heavy use ie streaming the latter when quiet . Perhaps you and Bill have been using your lines continuously for most of the day but the similarity of you both  for the changes in average and maximum latency surprises me.

[zappaDPJ]

Ironically the opposite applies Steve. The first speed test was conducted at a time when iPlayer was continually bailing out and the second when it was running smoothly.

The odd thing is nobody used the Internet here between 8.00am and 3.30pm but blue and yellow rug thing would suggest otherwise. Normally my BQM goes all spiky when I use the Internet. I don't think the 'rug' for want of a better term is anything to do with me.

[Bill]

Perhaps you and Bill have been using your lines continuously for most of the day

Nope.

I d/led a couple of GB around 10am (with a good speed) then, apart from normal email, browsing etc that was it. That blue and yellow on the BQM is nothing to do with me.

Saturday's BQM (the speed in the evening was awful, down around 10-20Mbps from its usual 60+):



There are days when I'm streaming almost continuously... but if Radio 3's 320Kbps is causing  latency increase then IDNet really are in trouble!

[Steve]

Correct me if I'm wrong Bill but hasn't the pattern of the variation in maximum latency been there on and off since the power out at Telehouse a couple of weeks ago. Or was it in existence before.

[Bill]

I can't remember when the outage occurred, but it started to become visible around the middle of November and has steadily been getting more pronounced ever since.

It starts at around 4-5pm (often ~1pm at weekends) and has gone by 11-12pm, so heavy video streaming (BT Sport?) would seem to be the prime suspect, and probably local to my exchange. But I can't be sure of that.

It doesn't correlate too well with the periods of packet loss.

[Gary]

All I can say I I experienced no slowdowns last night, my line was running at full speed, all day and evening., craigs seemed to show nothing major with other idnet BQM's apart from a packet loss spike at 2pm ish on IDNets  dedicated server.

Edit: is it possible that because we have experience on going issues that other issues, possibly down to local problems hardware etc are being blamed on IDNets problem with packetloss? Just a thought, its easy to get to look at the most obvious especially when it has been the culprit for a while. Weekends for me were always when my line was stable during these episodes, no real issues with 'packetloss' which when you do traceroutes and pings shows nothing oddly enough, when that red curtain does descend. It seems yesterdays graphs look pretty clean for the most part. 

[Bill]

I can't be sure whether my speed drops (which normally aren't severe, last night was an exception) are associated with the increased latency or the packet loss... my gut feeling is that it's the latter, but it's hard to tell reliably.

My position is that the increased latency is (probably) something in the hands of BT and my exchange and I just have to put up with it, but the fairly reliable packet loss period shouldn't be there!

[Gary]

but that fairly reliable packet loss period shouldn't be there!

I completely agree, but why does the packetloss BQM show it but pings show none? Thats something I have noticed whenever the speedloss has occurred. Which seems to have been much better since Simon's announcement last week oddly enough.

[Bill]

I completely agree, but why does the packetloss BQM show it but pings show none?

Good question

The obvious difference is that the pings from tbb and the user are going in opposite directions, but whether that's relevant I have no idea.

Which seems to have been much better since Simon's announcement last week oddly enough.

Not sure about that- it had good and bad periods before.

[Bill]

Good question

A purely speculative thought... lost packets quite possibly aren't really "lost", all it means is that after (I think) 500mSec tbb's pingbox got fed up waiting for a reply. If something en route to the target IP were set to drop a ping "in transit" after, say, 250mSec...?

I don't know if ping packets in transit are also low priority to a (non-targeted) router?

[Gary]

I don't know if ping packets in transit are also low priority to a (non-targeted) router?

I'm not sure on that, some ping to IDNet were in the region on 130ms when the slowdowns were occurring, at that point I was down to 20MBps from 67Mbps. I was informed pings to IDNet were low priority and when the server was busy will show ping's in the region of 130ms upwards, a few seconds later though they could be down to 8ms depending on your line and the load at the time.

I have not really had that much trouble since Simon's message. A loss of maybe 2Mbps here and there but nothing like I was having, also pages that were taking an age to load, like TBB now open instantly. The Apple home page had been loading like a 56k modem at times, its nigh on instant now. I guess next week and beyond will be a good test of what's being done to sort the issues, and how effective they are.

[lozcart]

I have noticed the "rug of yellow" on my BQM the same as Zappa has. This has only being the last few days and so I guess is due to the Winter Olympics?

[Steve]

So presumably that's three different exchanges with the same yellow rug.

[lozcart]

My exchange is Erdington Birmingham, when I saw the rug I thought one of my kids had done some major downloading, when I checked they had being out of the house and the idnet portal confirmed my daily download was normal.

[Gary]

I have noticed the "rug of yellow" on my BQM the same as Zappa has. This has only being the last few days and so I guess is due to the Winter Olympics?

I guess no one like sports, or they are all dead or don't use computers on my exchange... 

[Technical Ben]

Ping packet do not have priority IIRC, but I don't know if it applies in this instance (as it's between Thinkbroadband, so their stuff should not be setup to drop them). But it is probably best to check the packet loss is actually happening in use, not just from traces. Say, with games (I could bring up packet info in most of my games to test), or with skype/clients etc (no idea how to get skype to report packet loss).

[andrue]

Well there's 3.4Mb/s of unwanted traffic being aimed at my IP address at the moment. I don't know at what point that stops when my line is disconnected but sometime next week I'll be gone so maybe that will lighten the load. I wonder if it's an isolated issue - if not perhaps IDNet should implement some level of traffic monitoring to stop this stuff at the border.

[Gary]

Seems like a lot of people are leaving IDNet at the moment...

[psp83]

Seems like a lot of people are leaving IDNet at the moment...

Yep, I'll be getting my mac code next week.

It's a shame to leave after 7 yrs but it has to be done.