Increasing consistent small packet loss

[mervl]

If it is exchange congestion wouldn't that be the same whichever ISP you were with?

Having now left iDNet I don't see the same packet loss/speed drop with the new provider. Is that coincidental? BT have been doing some card upgrading on my exchange (01277) in recent days.

I'm on an 01245 exchange with IDNet FTTC and have had no packet loss showing on TBBQM over the last 24 hours too, and this week has had hardly any throughout. I've also had the card reprogramming. I assume in Essex we're both on the Stepney Green PoP (unless you don't have BT Wholesale backhaul) which had a fair few upgrades (presumably for the Olympics a few years ago) - and which itself has several gateways, not all of which will have any problems at the same time. It all makes me think that it's regional/exchange based which is consistent too with the BT troubleshooting approach. And as IDNet explained if the SVLAN is saturated then different people may have different experiences on the same exchange - and BT don't reveal who is on what SVLAN, or the criteria. It means some people suffer horribly, but that's the mend and make do way we do things in this country because we're all addicted to cheap, cheap, cheap.

And BT are a private company so nothing obliges them to reveal their confidential business operations any more than you and I our secrets. Try asking Tesco for how they make up their prices or for copies of their contracts with their suppliers or do any of you hand over all your business knowledge to your customers on request so they can save paying you for the job?

[Gary]

The line cards may not be saturated, but the SVLANs they're part of may be:

So that means that every idnet user showing packetloss is connected to a congested svlan and it all started on the same date for everyone last year which was first blamed on an Apple update, but moving to another ISP corrects this  Packet loss will show on all ISP's at some point but none are as bad as IDNet which has had this issue to a much greater extent, which kinda puts this svlan idea out the window a bit, Mervl  It will be interesting to see what happens after the work on the line cards and svlan for myself next week.

[Bill]

The explanation given by Simon agrees with what little direct evidence I can get (and, tbh, gut feeling), with what I've seen on BQMs from other ISPs and reports from AAISP... they could all be wrong and I could solve my problems at a stroke by migrating.

But I don't think the likelihood is very high and I'm not prepared to take the chance.

Your situation may be different to mine of course, and you must make your own decisions.

[mervl]

Not saying Gary that's it's all the same problem over time and for everyone. IDNet have increased the capacity of their links in the meantime. Do you know that was unnecessary and made no difference rather than just dealing with "only part of the problem"? The whole thing is so complex that we're chasing shadows. BT and IDNet too, possibly. I was referring really to the last 24 hours and the recent history over the last few weeks. Even the reprogramming might help some but not others. Congestion, as with the road network which always seems a good analogy to me, covers many sins. (And in a similar way it's the "junctions" (aggregation nodes) that are always the weakest link). Same with a breakdown, too!

EDIT I suspect that the "boots on the ground" at BT have a very good idea of the what needs to be done, but that's very different from "proving it" to the management and getting the budget from the even more remote accountants. Surely something that none of us can say we've never encountered? As I said in my earlier post, Welcome to the UK.

[Gary]

Your situation may be different to mine of course, and you must make your own decisions.

I have just seen so many different reasons for the issues, Bill. After a while it wears thin. If the work here next weeks corrects this then fair enough. I still think alot of this is down to size of ISP and the capacity it can actually afford. As I said seeing what this work does next week will be interesting, and maybe will cure this problem or at least help mitigate it

[Bill]

I have just seen so many different reasons for the issues, Bill.

Fair enough, but there's no law that says problems can only occur one at a time.. in fact there's one that states the opposite

[Gary]

Not saying Gary that's it's all the same problem over time and for everyone. IDNet have increased the capacity of their links in the meantime.

They increased bandwidth, which you can buy in and then rent out when not needed to help the cashflow, they didn't say they had new pipes just more bandwidth, but who knows really what they have. AAISP seem more transparent in talking about that so it makes it easier to judge what's going on. As you say who really knows, and its a very complex issue and we are not privy to all the info. Its time to watch and see what happens yet again, and that's all anyone can really do.

[Simon]

My understanding is that there were two issues which unfortunately coincided.  IDNet had capacity issues which peaked at certain times of the day, then there was the now disclosed BT issue as well.  Doesn't it therefore follow that the two issues when coupled together, would have more of an impact on IDNet networks than any others, and that IDNet's own issues could have been 'masking' the general BT capacity issues?

We are now seeing less problems for the majority on IDNet's networks (that post here), but similar issues are starting to show up with other ISPs.  To me, that indicates that whilst IDNet have sorted their own capacity issues (or, possibly, are still in the process of doing so), the ongoing BT issues remain, and there is little that IDNet, or any other ISP using BT's networks, can do about that. 

I'll get me coat... 

[Bill]

they didn't say they had new pipes just more bandwidth,

I don't think the concept of "pipes" applies to 21CN, I've always pictured it as more analogous to "quotas".

[Gary]

Fair enough, but there's no law that says problems can only occur one at a time.. in fact there's one that states the opposite

True bill, but if all this is a set of different issues manifesting as the same type of problem, IDnet have to be the unluckiest ISP on the block right now. Here's hoping it will mellow out...

[Gary]

I don't think the concept of "pipes" applies to 21CN, I've always pictured it as more analogous to "quotas".

AAISP if you read had new hostlinks. I guess you can have all the bandwidth you want but if you cant pass it though your network without a bottleneck its no good to anyone.

"We are pleased to confirm that we are extending the links to BT for broadband to a third gigabit hostlink. This means we will actually have six gigabit fibres to them allowing lots of headroom and redundancy. This should be seamless to customers but the LNSs known as "A", "B", "C", and "D" will have a new "E" and "F" added and we will run 5 of the 6 LNSs as "live" and one backup"

On that note im off to see if the fogs cleared from outside, and from my head, and maybe have another coffee too

[Gary]

Well its been a very quite no nasty red curtain (for me) weekend so far. I guess everyone was also taking advantage of the springlike weather. Never seen the TBBQM's so clear.

[Technical Ben]

Well, quiet as a whisper here and nothing more than local interruptions.   

[Baz]

TBB shows mine as having 8 drops since 8pm friday night and still the rest of today to go 

[Glenn]

Baz, as Steve said the other day, yours is most likely local sync/faulty connection issue not related to this ongoing problem, have you reported it yet?

[Gary]

TBB shows mine as having 8 drops since 8pm friday night and still the rest of today to go 

Make sure your router is ok, no harm in re-flashing it with the latest firmware if need be (only as a last resort) or try another router if possible. Also try plugging into the test socket etc etc you know the normal routine, and see if its your equipment, its what support will ask anyway. If not it may well be a local fault but rule out your faceplate and cables as well, as they can get dodgy after a while as well.

[Bill]

Well its been a very quite no nasty red curtain (for me) weekend so far. I guess everyone was also taking advantage of the springlike weather. Never seen the TBBQM's so clear.

Mine was exactly the same as usual

The repeatability of mine, particularly wrt the timings and the way it drops off quite abruptly around midnight, makes me think it's probably one or more pubs, clubs etc which turn on their hi-def BT Sport streams or whatever when the customers start to turn up and leave them running until chucking out time. Or something like that.

[Simon]

Perhaps your best solution is to go to the pub, Bill! 

[Baz]

Baz, as Steve said the other day, yours is most likely local sync/faulty connection issue not related to this ongoing problem, have you reported it yet?

Why is it that Steve and not the same as others are getting? whats the difference with what im getting and every one else,I dont follow.

No I havent reported it yet was hoping it would be corrected by whatever IDNet said they were doing.


Gary...Yeah I will check those out soon but feel ok that its not them,of course I could be wrong.All the other times Ive gone through that routine it has ended up just the same results and faceplates ive changed have been ok, but yeah just for elimination you're right

[Lance]

Baz,

From what you are saying it is your connection dropping between you and the exchange. This thread is for those who have a connection, but are seeing packet loss/increased latency on it.

The difference is your issue may need new equipment/engineer visit/further investigation. The packet loss issue is due to network configurations and capacity.

[mervl]

The problem too is the way things are handled within BT. Not BT's fault but at the insistence of the regulator, Ofcom.

The "local loop" between us end users and the exchange (or cabinet for FTTC data, not voice) is managed and maintained by the OpenReach division. The exchange/fibre cabs and BT backhaul between the exchange and the handover points to IDNet are the responsibility of BT Wholesale, a different division. That's why you need to speak to IDNet, so they get the right people involved for your issue.

The issue in this thread is the same or similar for many people across different exchanges and cabinets. So we're as certain as we can be that it's a BT Wholesale issue, and/or one for IDNet's network. Where you have more or a different problem from others that is a strong indicator that a problem may be in your local loop or at the DSLAM, once you are sure it's not your own equipment or internal wiring  that's faulty which can normally be checked by directly connecting a connected PC to the test socket (or BT VDSL "OpenReach" modem), where BT's responsibility ends.

[mervl]

After last weeks work on the regional network, things seem to have settled down to a weekday 10am-10pm minor 1% packet loss showing on TBBQM, with no significant effect on use. (Doesn't happen at weekends so I put it down to network rather than the router). My non-IDNet service shows absolutely none, though. Could just be down to busy busy IDNet, I suppose; which perhaps means they're doing good business, commercially. 

[Gary]

My non-IDNet service shows absolutely none, though. Could just be down to busy busy IDNet, I suppose; which perhaps means they're doing good business, commercially. 

Or dont have enough hostlinks. But I could and probably am way off. Second part of that work you had is happening here tonight, so it will be interesting to see if things become better. Exchange congestion work was last night. The last few days seem to have been ok, although IDnet still show more packet loss on their networks than others, but is that purely down to their size? Who knows.

[Gary]

My TBB speed test looks much healthier since the work last night, and TBB has the link to Rev K's rant on packetloss on the front page. The continued packetloss being seen by some providers is not getting better at all, and reading into it I doubt it will as the take up of services like BT vision continue 

'The problem appears to be affecting multiple broadband providers, and is not consistent across the United Kingdom. We all know that broadband usage is climbing rapidly as more people switch to OTT TV platforms for their viewing, but as the billing on the WBC network is based around the peak utilisation it is in the interest of BT Wholesale to carry as much traffic as possible, rather than allow congestion'

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6360-no-sign-yet-of-bt-wholesale-congestion-improving.html

[mervl]

There's an interesting comment on TBB forums from a rep for another (big) ISP (nameless, but not a million miles away from BT) tonight:

BTW now provide us with a list of which customers are on which SVLAN within the BTW network so our quality monitoring can now look for congestion down at the SVLAN level.

Should IDNet tackle this point again?? Might be less useful though as they (presumably) have many less customers for comparison.