Internet Filters

[Tacitus]

According to this article in today's Guardian, the Governments 'opt-out' internet filter is about to come into effect: see the start of the third paragraph.  It's not clear from the article whether this applies to all ISPs or just the big outfits.  I believe AAISP have steadfastly refused to implement any filtering.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/03/david-cameron-internet-porn-filter-censorship-creep

Has anybody any more information on this?  Since we have to express a desire to watch porn, will iDNet be asking us to sign a formal request?

[Simon]

I don't know specifically about IDNet, but I would guess that all ISPs will eventually have to comply with the law, if it's applied across the board, even AAISP.  A further guess is that any process to 'opt out' of the filters would be fairly anonymous, but I'll try to find out more. 

[Tacitus]

I don't know specifically about IDNet, but I would guess that all ISPs will eventually have to comply with the law, if it's applied across the board, even AAISP. 

I agree but have long felt that the 'porn' element is a distraction.  What they really want is internet censorship of anything the government of the day doesn't like, which is no better than what the Chinese, the Iranians and others are doing.  If parents or individuals want to block stuff, there are plenty of tools to do it with.

A further guess is that any process to 'opt out' of the filters would be fairly anonymous, but I'll try to find out more. 

"Fairly anonymous" is not the same as completely anonymous.    Personally I couldn't care less about porn, but I do object to being told what I can or can't do perfectly legally in my own home and that's quite apart from the fact that filters are a blunt tool and will block all sorts of other content which may be of use to people. 

[Simon]

"Fairly anonymous" were my own words, and as I said, a guess, but on the other hand, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "completely anonymous" on the internet these days. 

Anyway, I've heard back from IDNet that they have no plans to implement internet filtering, unless they are forced to do so by law, in which case, they will have to comply. 

I wonder if this might actually be good for some of the niche ISPs, who may gather business from the big players, whose customers don't like the idea of filtering? 

[zappaDPJ]

The irony of this nonsense is that those who have had their porn filtered will bypass the filters while thousands of everyday sites such as Imgur, BitTorrent, Tribler, VODO, Fedora,  Linuxtracker, ChildLine, the NSPCC, the Samaritans, the British Library and the National Library of Scotland are being blocked by various ISPs since the filters were introduced. According to an article I read recently in the Independent the filters also deny access to Parliament and Government websites, including that of Claire Perry, the clueless MP who campaigned prominently for the introduction of these filters

[Tacitus]

"Fairly anonymous" were my own words, and as I said, a guess, but on the other hand, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "completely anonymous" on the internet these days. 

I think you're right regarding the Internet, but there should be complete anonoymity as to whether or not you choose to view porn.  As I said the stuff doesn't bother me, it's the principle I object to when there are perfectly workable ways for individuals to block stuff if they so choose.

Anyway, I've heard back from IDNet that they have no plans to implement internet filtering, unless they are forced to do so by law, in which case, they will have to comply. 

Agreed they would have no choice and I can see this being the next battleground when MumsNet realise that not all ISPs are filtering.

I wonder if this might actually be good for some of the niche ISPs, who may gather business from the big players, whose customers don't like the idea of filtering? 

I think it probably will be good for them in business terms, but once the tabloids start labelling certain ISPs as "the ISP for pervs" I'm not sure.  If that does happen it will be interesting to see Adrian Kennard's response.  At least the printable part......   

[Tacitus]

I agree Zap.  As someone that works at a University I'm wondering what stuff is going to get blocked or whether Universities will be exempt.  Given they're full of hormonal young people I've got my doubts.

Someone once said, there is nothing so ridiculous as the British public having one of its periodic fits of morality.

[colirv]

Except it's not the British public, it's failing British politicians trying to find something that they can persuade us is both a problem and something they can solve. All the main parties do this periodically. Luckily for them the Daily Mail has sufficient readers to listen!

[cavillas]

I will definitely opt out of any sort of filter on the basis that the government wants these filters implemented.  As an adult I can choose to see and do what I wish, even if I break the law I have the right to do so but also must suffer any consequences as a result.  As far as these filters go because it is a government requirement then I will opt out as it is an infringement on my personal life choices and anti-democratic.  I don't care if people think I want to lok at porn (which I don't) but it is the wider, future implementation of blocking legitimate sites which future governments don't want people to access.  governments always attack their own people where freedom is concerned and criticism of them is not wanted. Over the past 45 years British governments have proved they cannot be trusted any more.

[talos]

   The more this government wants to hide the more I want to see it. They use the excuse of porn,  to filter everything we see, its big brother all over again 

[Gary]

Many will opt out, many will use it thinking its protecting thier children/themselves not realising it can block links to sexual heath sites etc. As far as the government hiding things, the Conservatives have already hidden about ten years of their own internet history, and I am sure they will continue.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/14/conservatives-website-purge-history-tory-party-speeches-internet

[pctech]

More technically clueless MPs on the hunt for votes.

Presumably these filters are working on aggregate routes as well as domains and IPs which is why lots of other stuff is getting blocked.

My own ISP has taken the 'want filtering? We're not the ISP for you then' approach which I totally agree with because people who want to access the material will know how to circumvent the filters or will definitely know someone who does.

I'd rather see the law makers here and in Europe bringing the full weight of the law down on paedophiles and making it as hard as possible for them to use the Internet.

[Gary]

More technically clueless MPs on the hunt for votes.

I'd rather see the law makers here and in Europe bringing the full weight of the law down on paedophiles and making it as hard as possible for them to use the Internet.

Paedophiles don't google, they have access generally though the darknet to their vile material. These filters seem to me to be a door way to stop access to material that a government may consider a threat to itself or its policies possibly, or to stop access to information about how our human rights are changing, or fact that this kind of censorship is even happening. How long before we have the great firewall of the UK, I wonder? It will happen but slowly, and then it will be to late to stop it. The days of frees speech on the net are crumbling away.

[pctech]

Yep I think you are 100% correct there Gary.

[Lona]

I wish they would filter Facebook and Twitter as they are a blot on society.

[pctech]

Agree with you Lona but I do tend to monitor Jack Dee's twitter feed as he does come up with some real cracking jokes that he posts there.

[Gary]

I wish they would filter Facebook and Twitter as they are a blot on society.

Yes helping the disabled with special forums on Facebook is a blot...sorry no its not. Nor is having twitter which helped a whole country to free itself from a crushing regime.  Not understanding something is not a reason to persecute it, unless you are an avid daily mail reader... and when I say 'you' I mean in general, not you specifically Lona. Facebook lets me keep in touch with friends, talk in groups for people with similar disabilities to myself, and enjoy family and friends contributions from all over the world.

[colirv]

Lona, I hope that was a joke. You don't have to look at Facebook if you don't want to. Our large family uses it a lot to keep each other posted about what we're up to, who's feeling well or poorly, grandchildren's latest drawings and so on. I can't think of a better way of doing that.

[Simon]

Talking of Facebook...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25584286

I have used it to access certain groups, but I'm not 'on Facebook' myself, as I find it just too intrusive.  Even joining a group requires a lot of digging around in settings to avoid constant notifications of this, that, and everything else, all of which seem to enabled by default.  That's just annoying. 

[Gary]

Talking of Facebook...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25584286

I have used it to access certain groups, but I'm not 'on Facebook' myself, as I find it just too intrusive.  Even joining a group requires a lot of digging around in settings to avoid constant notifications of this, that, and everything else, all if which seem to enabled by default.  That's just annoying. 

Its quite easy, you just turn off notifications for a group, its at the top of group pages, Simon.

[talos]

I use Facebook quite a lot, the trick is to learn how it works,  so you use it and not let it use you 

[Lona]

I agree with a lot that has been said here and yes, Facebook could be a really good way of keeping in touch with Family.  The objections I have to it is the fact it is not monitored like this forum is for example.  What would it be like on this forum if folk could type whatever they wanted to bully and abuse people.

When I said filter Facebook and Twitter I meant just that. To stop some of the things that happen regarding bullying and filth being typed.

[colirv]

In general I prefer forums which are not moderated, so people can indeed post whatever they like. I object in principal to being censored. However, for forums that cover specific technical subjects, such as this one for customers of IDNet, I'm content to accept censorship as the price for technical help and discussion.

[talos]

I've been on Facebook almost from its start and I have to say I've not seen or heard from other users any bullying or filth,   have you any personal experience of this Lona ?  If you meet somebody you would not like to associate with you simply filter them out, and as far as I can see this option is available on most forums.  Twitter, I joined two years ago likewise no problems although I don't use it much so I don't really feel qualified to comment on it.  If I joined any forum or any other interactive service on the web and don't like the content or the way it runs I don't get wound up by it I simply delete it from my system.

[talos]

Talking of Facebook...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25584286

I have used it to access certain groups, but I'm not 'on Facebook' myself, as I find it just too intrusive.  Even joining a group requires a lot of digging around in settings to avoid constant notifications of this, that, and everything else, all of which seem to enabled by default.  That's just annoying. 

I'm sorry but I think its rather naïve to think messages are not monitored, I firmly believe that there is no such thing  as a "private" message be it an Email, Tweet or comment. If you want privacy use a landline or a letter.  In my radio days we were taught never to send sensitive or private information over the air, and I consider mobile phones and Wi-Fi as radio .

[Gary]

I agree with a lot that has been said here and yes, Facebook could be a really good way of keeping in touch with Family.  The objections I have to it is the fact it is not monitored like this forum is for example.  What would it be like on this forum if folk could type whatever they wanted to bully and abuse people.

When I said filter Facebook and Twitter I meant just that. To stop some of the things that happen regarding bullying and filth being typed.

I think you read to much into what the papers have to say, Lona. I see no 'filth' which in itself is subjective, and have never been bullied, I have a circle of friends, I have never been bullied within that circle by my friends freinds because I choose my friends carefully to people I know I don't collect thousands of people on facebook, just real life friends. I don't have the thing set to public and in that respect it operates like a small forum of like minded people, yes discussions can be more heated as others friends join in, but if it gets a bit flamy you can just dial someone out and never see them again. Its self moderating and you are the person that has that decision.

If you are dumb enough to post publicly to the whole of facebook yes maybe it will get picked up, but you can even limit each post to certain friends only, setting up facebook to get the settings set up of as much privacy as you can ever expect on facebook is easy, Sophos has a page to show people how to do that (not that its complicated) and Bitdefender has a app to scan your thread and others for dumb little scams and spam etc just like on the internet at large really. Twitter is much the same you can be public or private, I have public blog, but if you are dumb enough to say something hate/race inspired or libellous you get you just deserts.

I feel the biggest blot on society is ignorance tbh, which these days seems to come from believing everything you read in the cheap rags. They are designed to get people believe some absolute rubbish tbh. The Daily Mail being a prime example which is run by a Tory millionaire, posting exactly the rubbish the Tory's want people to read and then get enraged about. Generally with no further knowledge on the subject because they think what they read is gospel. Every Newspaper is tainted to one party and spews that political parties rubbish out to get the votes it wants.

If you think what is typed on this forum is not 'monitored' then you would have to be very naive, every email every text every phone call can be listened in to or read, most of the time they never are as they are just boring, but there is no such thing as privacy on the internet and its getting worse, when as seen recently products from Amazon have been intercepted by GCHQ/NSA and have had added extras put in to monitor individuals. Now that is something to worry about far more than facebook or twitter...

[cavillas]

I have no objection to my private messages on facebook being monitored, after all they are full of banality and rubbish and as far as targeted adverts, I ignore all adverts on the interne anyway.  As far as bullying etc. goes, most is done vie schoolchildren and even they can be filters out by the person receiving the rubbish, you don't have to accept anything online if you don't want to.  Too many people are making too much of a fuss over things that can already be  addressed.

[Lona]

I am neither dumb, naive nor ignorant regarding Facebook, Gary.  I have my page set to only me can view.

Perhaps, you don't come into contact with very young teenagers and at the moment I am looking into posts on Facebook for a friend who does not have a computer, as her grandson is being ridiculed by many.  Teenagers can be cruel and find it difficult to ignore vile remarks typed in Facebook for the world to read.

You must think I sit at home doing my knitting. If you did your research better, you would be able to see some real shocking things that go on in Facebook but nobody seems to do anything about it.

It's all very nicey nicey for folk like you who only chat to your friends and family but there's a darker side to Facebook which needs addressing.

I'm thinking of changing my name to Lona Mary Whitehouse.

[Lona]

I have no objection to my private messages on facebook being monitored, after all they are full of banality and rubbish and as far as targeted adverts, I ignore all adverts on the interne anyway.  As far as bullying etc. goes, most is done vie schoolchildren and even they can be filters out by the person receiving the rubbish, you don't have to accept anything online if you don't want to.  Too many people are making too much of a fuss over things that can already be  addressed.

I agree totally but where kids are concerned it can carry over to the playground and their lives can really be affected by it.  When I was at school and had to read what other kids were saying about me it would be devastating.  I also blame the parents for allowing some of the things that go on in Facebook.

[mervl]

More optional regulation in the politicians' never-ending quest to make us good. In our consumerist society we just pick and choose what laws to obey anyway. Bullying though has always been endemic; for all of us it's the most popular way of getting what we want and winning an argument. We forget that it's a sign of weakness, not strength. Ignore them and make the bully face up to what they cannot face: their own inadequacy. But that won't happen, and nor can the bully do without the approval they need from others. I don't think cyberbullying is any worse, it's just that the internet is the natural home for cowards. And marvellous how the politicians answer to bullying is to do the bullying themselves. Unfortunately kids suffer, they always have; I think that all of us adults have to ask ourselves the question why that's the sort of world we create for them. It's not someone else's problem. 

[pctech]

I agree totally but where kids are concerned it can carry over to the playground and their lives can really be affected by it.  When I was at school and had to read what other kids were saying about me it would be devastating.  I also blame the parents for allowing some of the things that go on in Facebook.

Kids should not be on Facebook.

[Lona]

Kids should not be on Facebook.

Totally agree, I just wish there was a way to keep them out.

[Simon]

Why not?  That's like saying they shouldn't go outdoors.

[Lona]

Why not?  That's like saying they shouldn't go outdoors.

They don't go outdoors now, Simon, they're too busy typing filth on Facebook.

[Simon]

[pctech]

Not really the same.

Nice idea but alas open to abuse.

[Baz]

Kids on facebook?    what age are they kids?

How can you blame the parents Lona....they cant sit over the kids all the time.If they dont see it on internet they will see it out side or TV. Its an unfortunate part of life now isnt it

[Gary]

They don't go outdoors now, Simon, they're too busy typing filth on Facebook.

Define filth? Oh and in terms that apply to this century please...

[Gary]

I am neither dumb, naive nor ignorant regarding Facebook, Gary.  I have my page set to only me can view.

Perhaps, you don't come into contact with very young teenagers and at the moment I am looking into posts on Facebook for a friend who does not have a computer, as her grandson is being ridiculed by many.  Teenagers can be cruel and find it difficult to ignore vile remarks typed in Facebook for the world to read.

You must think I sit at home doing my knitting. If you did your research better, you would be able to see some real shocking things that go on in Facebook but nobody seems to do anything about it.

It's all very nicey nicey for folk like you who only chat to your friends and family but there's a darker side to Facebook which needs addressing.

I'm thinking of changing my name to Lona Mary Whitehouse.

I didn't say you were dumb no idea why you thought you were. I have a wife that nanny's so I come into contact with children on Facebook via her page alot actually. I don't see any of what you are taking about. Its alot of  fear mongering again from the daily rags. Yes cyber bulling can occur, and that needs to be stepped on I agree, but common sense is not hard to come buy and all the teens I see on Justina's pages are all having fun and nothing bad is going on and no so called 'filth' what ever that may be. The media focuses on something to sensationalise it and sell its rotten pages, causing some parents it seems to go into a spiral of panic thats just not warranted.  If these parents actually did some real research and didn't read this one sided rubbish that might help. Becoming the modern version of Mary Whitehouse, Lona is not the answer, she was despised for good reason...

[Technical Ben]

Totally agree, I just wish there was a way to keep them out.

I'd take the phone and PC off. It's hard, but it's right. I've got friends that do. The kids don't get mobiles till their old enough. They don't get unrestricted access to the PC. Their the most polite and kind kids ever. Some get to use Facebook to talk to friends, supervised (only friends/family, anyone who would be abusive would get blocked). Alternatively, I do know of some who get anything and everything they ask for. From the games consoles their behavior plummeted, thankfully not to anything beyond normal teenagers. But still, they "imitated" the people they were playing with/against in the games. They did not learn good examples, but the one or 2 bad ones that made the most noise. :/

In reality, yes, tools are dangerous. This is true for all of them. We can complain spray paint is dangerous, or methylene spirits. But as a kid I used airfix and painted/cleaned the models. Unlike the horror stories of others taking on chemical abuse. So, we could demonize the tools, or we could help young ones avoid the dangerous ones (saws, chemicals, knifes and the internet) until they know how to use them well.

[Lona]

Well said Ben.  It makes sense to limit who our kids talk to on Facebook and other interactive websites.

Gary, you should come up to Scotland  .  I could give you a few Facebook names and it would change your mind about what young folk put up on their pages.

[Technical Ben]

When it comes to online bullying though, there is no better "cure" then people knowing they can leave. I've left gaming forums etc in the past, as it's just not worth it. Unlike face to face bullying, at least online we can choose who we interact with (less so at school/work etc).

With that in mind, even the telephone becomes harder to prevent bullying through. But what people fail to see, is that the facebook/internet forum they are using becomes a "need" that they don't realize they can leave if bullying appears.

[Den]

If everybody could be trusted to behave properly then Facebook would be great but sadly some people don't know how to behave and only know how to bully when hiding behind Facebook therefore are cowards. I registered on Facebook as I required to be able to contact someone who had gone missing but I get fed up with all the requests to be a friend from people who I do not know just because they are friends with someone who I know slightly. Imagine my surprise when I had a automatic request from my ex-wife.

I assume Gary that you don't vote Tory as you always have a go at the Mail and never at the Mirror or the Sun or is that just me jumping to conclusions again.  I only read the newspapers on the internet and never buy them and therefore tend to read them all (except the Times and the Sun as you have to pay now) so my tastes vary quite a bit. 

[pctech]

Anyone sensible avoids the mail

[colirv]

Most newspapers aim at a particular subset of the population, including the Mirror and the Sun. The Daily Mail, however, is in a class of its own when it comes to distortion and the invention of "news". I think even Tories recognise that!

[Simon]

The Daily Express seems to be in a class of it's own too these days, especially when scaremongering about the weather!

[Den]

I like to read The Sun so that I can keep abreast of the news.    The weather reports in the Express are something to behold indeed. The Mirror is in a class of it's own for publishing rubbish about so called famous people. I think the best way is to look at them all on the internet and try to wade through to the truth. 

[Lona]

I get the Daily Record which is a Scottish paper and all they ever do is knock Alec Salmond.

[talos]

I would read them all, but believe none of them.  Like all people they all have their own agenda.

[mungo]

I like to read The Sun so that I can keep abreast of the breasts. 

[pctech]

Ok time to roll out the Welcome Wagon   

[pctech]

I get the Daily Record which is a Scottish paper and all they ever do is knock Alec Salmond.

Alec Salmond? Alex hasn't got a relative he's brought into the SNP has he?

[Simon]

I like to read The Sun so that I can keep abreast of the breasts. 

Blimey, it's taken him nearly three months to think of that one!   

[zappaDPJ]

 

[Lona]

Alec Salmond? Alex hasn't got a relative he's brought into the SNP has he?

I hope you don't mean me? I'm definitely undecided.

[Lona]

I didn't say you were dumb no idea why you thought you were. I have a wife that nanny's so I come into contact with children on Facebook via her page alot actually. I don't see any of what you are taking about. Its alot of  fear mongering again from the daily rags. Yes cyber bulling can occur, and that needs to be stepped on I agree, but common sense is not hard to come buy and all the teens I see on Justina's pages are all having fun and nothing bad is going on and no so called 'filth' what ever that may be. The media focuses on something to sensationalise it and sell its rotten pages, causing some parents it seems to go into a spiral of panic thats just not warranted.  If these parents actually did some real research and didn't read this one sided rubbish that might help. Becoming the modern version of Mary Whitehouse, Lona is not the answer, she was despised for good reason...

"If you are dumb enough" were your words Gary not mine!!!

[Lona]

I like to read The Sun so that I can keep abreast of the breasts. 

  Mungo.