Discons (AGAIN!), They Never Really Went Away!

[RandomGeeza]

It seems like the discons are back... Well, in all honesty they never went away, I just learned to ignore them. However, having just bought a Billion 7800DXL, in the hope this would finally put the discons to bed, I noticed (today) a very slow connection, courtesy of BT's sh*tty DLM system, checked the stats and noticed another random discon. SNR pushed up on both DL and UL. So, reset the unit manually and will continue to monitor.

Ahh it would seem my old thread from days gone by is now active again. http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,30647.0.html

And, oddly enough, it is almost a year to day this issue reared its ugly head. What I also noticed in December was... whilst out of the country for a month and with remote enabled, there wasn't a single drop, not one. So, I have a full month stable connection. But, as soon as I get back and start to use the connection as I normally would, within a few days they appear again. It appears as though when the traffic is heavy the line can't/doesn't cope and discons. Although, the discons do not happen in conjunction with heavy use, if at all...? It just seems when the line is in use, the discons are more likely to happen, randomly.

I can foresee a call into Nick or Simon and another BT line test/engineer visit.

Edit: Typo/Add info

[Gary]

My ADSL Issue was never resolved, I went for FTTC and the problem vanished the day it was installed. Maybe FTTC would be an option for you now?

[RandomGeeza]

Frustratingly, because the street on which I live is too new... yup, too new??? We don't and are not likely to get FTTC. And yet less than 100 yards down the road, on the old street, it is enabled.

As it is... to troubleshoot, I have turned off my 2.4Ghz channels and moved to 5Ghz, whereby eliminating any chance of interference, which having spoken to Brian at iDNet about this yesterday and given the experience I had when out the country, is the suspected source.

So, if it drops whilst on 5Ghz, I know that it isn't appliance interference and that it will most likely be a line issue.

Time will tell...

[pctech]

So I take it you completely lose sync when this happens?

Have you spoken to support again?

The patch leads supplied with routers (between the filter and router) tend to be pretty dire so have PMed you with details of what I replaced mine with (I'm using a Billion 7800N on my connection)

If would pursue it with support as that is what you are paying for.

[RandomGeeza]

Hi, cheers for the heads up... will have a ganders and see if things improve.

Yes, sync is lost completely.

As for support, as polite and attentive as they are... I totally appreciate that their hands are as tied as mine, given the BT strangle hold. Their records always report a 'user instigated' loss of connection. I.e. the router has initiated the re-sync. Odd though that this has happened over four different routers in total. As bad as my luck can be, I find it highly unlikely that all four units have been defective. Likewise, I am extremely confident that my settings and set-up are solid.

Previous to February of last year, which is when this debacle kicked off, I never suffered any issues whatsoever and had/have been using the same setup as I am now. TBH, it will either be interference, which could possibly be ruled out in a two weeks given my current troubleshooting config. Or, it's a dodgy line leading into my property, or it's further afield. One thing I have noticed when things go t*ts, it's normally cold/wet/snowy outside.

[RandomGeeza]

Even on 5Ghz, I am getting disconnections. So that rules out any interference.

Had a least three since 2am this morning. Was sat here, phone in hand about to call iDNet, and one happened as I dialled the number. Needless to say, Nick is testing the line right now. However, as per, I suspect that will come back clean.

This is all pointing to an issue further afield. One that has been on and off for bloody months. Also, as per my earlier post, it does seem to been in conjunction with bad weather, given the gales and rain outside.

[Gary]

The patch leads supplied with routers (between the filter and router) tend to be pretty dire so have PMed you with details of what I replaced mine with (I'm using a Billion 7800N on my connection

I agree modem RJ11 cables are dire, I use a shielded adsl nation CAT5E (0.5m) between my FTTC socket and modem, it wont increase speed much but it does cut down on errors compared with 2m of flat twin pair.

[RandomGeeza]

As so it starts again, and again, and again.

Had a fairly quiet few days, no disconnection, no issues. Replaced the flat cable with a Cat5e, moved into the test socket, set up my whole network again, as the test socket is in another part of my property. And as of yesterday, the random drops are happening again. Talked with Simon, who advised that, given the random nature, a resolution would be difficult, which TBH felt like a fob off. Went to bed with an SNR of 6, have woken up to find the most recent drop was an hour ago and my SNR has now increased to 9.1 resulting in a 2000 KB/ps drop in speed.

Am at the end of my tether with this situation now, with no FTTC in the area, I am tied into a sh*tty service with an expensive price. And I am aware that moving to another provider most likely won't make a difference, other than price. But it may feel a little better as I will be getting what I pay for as opposed to paying for something I feel I am not getting.

Apols for my small rant, am stuck now with no options other than gambling with a BT engineer (again).

[Gary]

As so it starts again, and again, and again.

Had a fairly quiet few days, no disconnection, no issues. Replaced the flat cable with a Cat5e, moved into the test socket, set up my whole network again, as the test socket is in another part of my property. And as of yesterday, the random drops are happening again. Talked with Simon, who advised that, given the random nature, a resolution would be difficult, which TBH felt like a fob off. Went to bed with an SNR of 6, have woken up to find the most recent drop was an hour ago and my SNR has now increased to 9.1 resulting in a 2000 KB/ps drop in speed.

Am at the end of my tether with this situation now, with no FTTC in the area, I am tied into a sh*tty service with an expensive price. And I am aware that moving to another provider most likely won't make a difference, other than price. But it may feel a little better as I will be getting what I pay for as opposed to paying for something I feel I am not getting.

Apols for my small rant, am stuck now with no options other than gambling with a BT engineer (again).

Can you run routerstats at all? If it was like my situation and its REIN then its not a fob off but the truth, as I have a close friend thats a BT engineer he and his mates who are part of the team that works on these faults were baffled. If its  a dodgy line card BT wont replace it in a hurry until it fails more than likely. If its REIN well thats really hard, but an RF3 (REIN filter) may help, an engineer could install one. A lift and shift is possible but maybe a new E side could help as that may move you away from the source of the REIN, if it is that of course. The thing is try talking this though with a BT call centre... thats why good support is important. If you could get FTTC you would lose the E side. (E-side is from the cabinet to the exchange, D-side is from the cabinet to you) Loosing the E side cured my issues with FTTC so maybe that's worth pursuing with support as a good engineer would see if they could move you onto another E side to see if it helps..

[RandomGeeza]

Seems strange though, given that I have lived in other apartments in this block and never suffered like I have in this particular property. I would think it reasonable to assume that other apartments are attached to the same cabinet/wiring path and yet they do not suffer the drops that I have. Likewise when I have canvassed other flats to see if they have had issues, most if not all report steady lines.

As for BT, I doubt they will talk to me, I don't have a service with them, my phone and BB are through iDNet, and therefore it really is their responsibility to action a remedy as best they can.

I am convinced the matter is outside of my four walls, the evidence is mounting in favour of that assumption. Whether it be REIN or bad wiring. The latter is suspected here. When the BT engineer visited in mid 2013, he found issues in the junction box in the communal area/metering cupboard. I am wondering whether this issue has resurfaced.

As for FTTC, if it was available I would have already jumped on it. However, my street is too new and as a result our cabinet (no56 - so I am led to believe) is not listed in foreseeable BT phases. Which as I understand, means that it will be along time before that option is made available, if ever...?

[Gary]

Seems strange though, given that I have lived in other apartments in this block and never suffered like I have in this particular property. I would think it reasonable to assume that other apartments are attached to the same cabinet/wiring path and yet they do not suffer the drops that I have.

Each person is connected in the cab individually, if you are next to a connection say thats having REIN issues it does not follow that anyone else in your block would get that. Bad wiring means the engineer should go and check the E side and D side for bad connections as well as the cab and your flat. As far as BT I meant if you were with them, try having this conversation with their support! Hope you get a resolution. Having your E side moved could help, as I said each pair in the cab can act very differently even if they are from the same block of flats.

[RandomGeeza]

Cheers for the explan. If anything, I am slowly becoming knowledgable in phone and BB workings. Every cloud, blah blah blah.

Likewise, I hope it is fixed soon too.

[Gary]

Cheers for the explan. If anything, I am slowly becoming knowledgable in phone and BB workings. Every cloud, blah blah blah.

Likewise, I hope it is fixed soon too.

def dont give up. Ask support if it sounds like REIN, if so and its not your equipment as before if an engineer comes out ask if he could try fitting an RF3 filter. It may help it may not but it means work was done to your line at least  You can buy them yourself but you are not allowed to fit them as thats on the BT side of your NTE5 which you cant touch.

[RandomGeeza]

def dont give up. Ask support if it sounds like REIN, if so and its not your equipment as before if an engineer comes out ask if he could try fitting an RF3 filter. It may help it may not but it means work was done to your line at least  You can buy them yourself but you are not allowed to fit them as thats on the BT side of your NTE5 which you cant touch.

I feel like giving up... Might be quicker/cheaper to move to TT or BT, pay £5 a month and expect the drops and cr*p service. At least that saves me £30 p/m.

Although, I won't. I am like a dog with a bone and will eventually get to the bottom of this.

It just feel like when things are good they are good, but when things don't work, iDNet and others appear powerless to really do anything except pay lip service, which frustrates the hell out of me.

Am currently waiting for Brian to report back today, after having BT run some diagnostics, which I suspect will report 'no fault found'...

[Gary]

Am currently waiting for Brian to report back today, after having BT run some diagnostics, which I suspect will report 'no fault found'...

I had that all the time Still was an issue though.

[RandomGeeza]

No word from iDNet as to the diagnostics, so I am betting I am in a queue and will have to wait the wait the weekend out. Oh well it's only been a year... a day or two more ain't gonna break me.

And thanks to dobber for his PM. Hopefully my suspicions will be confirmed and the problem fixed sharpish!

[RandomGeeza]

4 Day and 8 hours constant uptime. Until... yep another random disconnection.

SNR is at 9 but I suspect it will rise again, as one of these discons is normally followed by any number of them. Slower speed, further instability. All for 100% of the price. I ask you this, would you go into a shop and pay full price for 90% of the product... thought so.

Due to BT's SLA the current fault has been closed. So another one is now open and an engineer visit imminent (once iDNet get back to me) which, incidentally they didn't, following Friday's diagnostics. I had to chase up the results.

Simply put, this is not on and unless a remedy is reached swiftly, Simon Davies will be getting a sharply worded email/letter. In a last ditch attempt to resolve this matter before I re-evaluate my choice of ISP. If my service is sh*t I might as well pay less for it.

Rant: End
Mood: 
Stats:

Line Coding (Trellis)   On   On
SNR Margin (dB)   9.0   6.2
Attenuation (dB)   38.0   21.2
Output Power (dBm)   0.0   12.8
Attainable Rate (Kbps)   10548   1220
Rate (Kbps)   9018   1199

[RandomGeeza]

Sure as, damn it...

Another one, SNR 12... GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!

Oddly enough, a rain storm has just passed over also. And I've now lost ADSL2+ and have been dropped to ADSL.

Stats:

Line Coding (Trellis)   On   On
SNR Margin (dB)   11.1   8.0
Attenuation (dB)   34.5   22.5
Output Power (dBm)   19.7   12.4
Attainable Rate (Kbps)   9380   1256
Rate (Kbps)   7840   1120

[Gary]

Did yiu leave the snr lower after you twiddled with it? It's best with unstable lines to not play till they are stable sadly.  The issue is with BTOR not IDNet really, yiu will get this from any isp as it's a weird line issue. You need to capture data doublely make sure yiur equipment is not at fault then get an engineer out. Show them speed tests get them to check your line really carefully. That's really the only way round it. 

[RandomGeeza]

I have not tweaked any settings on the router, because I did not want to aggravate the situation. They have been and are all set to auto and default.

iDNet's logs and the number of calls into Nick, Simon, Brian all constitute as evidence likewise the posts on here.

And although, I know this won't help but a power cycle of the router a minute ago has pushed the SNR down to 9 (albeit, it should be 6) and my ADSL2+ is back. But I am fully aware that this is a short term solution, which may catch me up in the long term.

I am almost certain that it is wiring outside and I am sure that it is environmental. Possibly exposed wiring, bad connection.

Will chase with Nick tomorrow and get BT in. Either that or cancel it and give up ...because, fingers crossed and everything permitting, I might be moving... So, I will gladly bequeath the flaky internet to the next poor sod that fancies his chances in this god forsaken hole I call home.

EDIT: With regards to whom is at fault... If I pay iDNet, then regardless of how it works in the background they are the people who are gonna get it in the neck when they don't deliver the service that is expected. I worked for BG complaints for years, and even though we were at the mercy of the distributors, operators, networks; when the sh*t hit we had to sort it. I expect nothing less of any service provider to whom I pay money. I don't care how it works, just make it work!

[Gary]

It isnt IDNet, BTOR only can do so much remotely, if their copper line test does not see a fault then you don't have one! You need BT speedtests over several days, pings etc all to show its not your router or anything else your end. IDNet cant fix the issue when they don't own the line, or have engineers to fix it of thier own. No offence, but attitude goes a long way, IDNet cant control water ingress, or exchange faults, bad joints and battery faults etc. You are given tests to do and that's down to you to as it helps diagnose whast going on for the team, or if BTOR turn up and the fault is your end you get charged. That's why you are asked to do tests and it helps to show the engineer your results as well so he can get a clue if the line tests fine his end too, if you give he/she attitude they will not want to stick around to listen to it, let alone be moaned at. Just saying 

[RandomGeeza]

I acknowledge everything you say and I am sure you can appreciate that a venting of frustration is inevitable given the time this situation has continued on.

I have followed to the letter every step advised to me, re: iDNet support. I have spent a small fortune on router, after router, to ensure that it is not a faulty unit(s). I am no longer broadcasting wifi on a frequency that is troubled with interference and I am the only one in the street/vicinity that has a 5Ghz network. I have wired and rewired my whole network on a number of occasions, moving it from one side of my apartment to another. I haver walked around with a AM radio. I have and am still using the test socket to connect to the WWW. The logs I have show nothing more than a loss of sync and as Nick advised would not be of any help, given that their records show the same details and would suffice as evidence.

What riles me, is iDNet do not seem to have my back on this. I would like them to push a little harder than they are doing. If they say I will call you back, I expect them to do so. I do not expect to wait all weekend, no reply forthcoming and then have to call them on Monday, repeating myself to another voice on the phone. If they say a fault has a 5 day SLA, I expect that to be the case and not for it to close on day 4, although again I understand that it is a BT SLA. Rendering the current investigation closed and having to start the process all over again. However, why have they not challenged this.

With all due respect; My 'attitude' is as a result of what I perceive as a poor, yet premium priced internet service, and sheer frustration. And as I said earlier, the processes in place are for those companies to follow and not hide behind or use as an excuse as to why something does not work, whether that be BT, iDNet or whomever. It is unfortunate that iDNet are on the frontline. It is nothing personal, but they take my money, they take my praise, they also take my critique.

I have fulfilled my obligations as such and I hope that moving forward everyone else, from whatever company, process, department does likewise.

And of course, when said BT rep turns up... I will co-op fully. I want the matter resolving!

[Technical Ben]

I have found with 3 friends (2 on BT, 1 on Virgin, so I've not seen anyone get better/worse when dealing with openreach) that checking everything first means they/you/we are not going to get charged for the engineer fixing a phone/router.

These experiences were bad enough to cause voice line drops though. Troubleshooting just broadband is much more difficult.

After everything has been checked, it's then taking the plunge and asking the engineers to look at the wiring outside. 2 of the problems friends had above, were completely dead lines. When we called BT they soon changed to "there is a fault after all". Apparently the automated system found it, only after I talked to BT, but could never when my friends called (yeah right, more like they could not fob me off with excuses ). I've never had that experience with IDNet though.

I hope you and IDNet find enough information to make a decision and find the right solution.

[RandomGeeza]

Engineer booked for Monday AM.

iDNet haven't as such fobbed me off. I wish that they had pushed a little harder on my behalf. They can see I have an ongoing issue, and that it has been months in the making, in fact over a year now. My concerns are with BT not finding anything (albeit the evidence points to the contrary), and a levy being imposed on me as a result. After all, if I had faith in BT, I'd be with BT. However, I don't... so I'm not.

In my previous role I had to deal with complaints/issues/faults and I also had to deal with a number of different organisations in order to get a badly oiled machine to work. However, if SLA's were missed, or the appropriate action wasn't taken, it was my role to challenge, feedback, escalate, process amend... ATEoTD it is not the customer's responsibility to understand internal/back-end processes regardless of whether they do or not.

However, without raking over old coals... Fingers crossed that the issue is finally identified and a fix implemented. There was another discon earlier today even with the higher SNR in place. Something is definitely amiss here.

[Technical Ben]

Sadly I think The days of Openreach/BT working with companies/resellers is gone. At least it seems to be the indication from this side of the invoice.
It would be nice if one of the companies (IDNet or whoever) would post on one of their blogs to let us know how things have changed on the services openreach offer (there have been a lot with FTTC etc). Though I guess most of that is back office private stuff.

[RandomGeeza]

Agreed.

Although that gives BT/OR resellers even more reason to challenge. BT is already reputably bad, it's a shame that the smaller yet more customer friendly ISP's are risking their own reputations by not doing so, whether they are met with a brick wall or not.

I personally think it is laughable, the state of communications network in this country, a free market...? My ar*e! Just like water and other services... but that's a whole different story and very off topic. 

Actually looking forward to Monday... Hopefully the eng will turn up and that will be the end of it.

FYI: Another three discons today... no bad weather, so that pattern seems irrelevant. My sync is up and down like a pair of ***** pants.

[RandomGeeza]

Mr BT turned up. Young, friendly, informative guy. Seemed to know what he was doing and what needed to be done. Took approx. four hours.

Following enhancement of the line, he also sorted out the pairing... which means nothing to me. Went around the street with his radio tuned into MW... fitted an iPlate, did some more tests which actually demonstrated the dropouts and concluded that a REIN investigation be opened. He based this assumption on the fact that several houses in the area are all suffering the same situation as me. But, he could not understand why others in this block or building (30 apartments in all) were not experiencing drop outs? He was hoping that it was more hardware than REIN, because trying to find the source of REIN is an almost impossible feat. BT/OR agreed to open the REIN case, so another appointment has to be arranged.

So, as it happens there were some issues, and still are... Case ongoing.

[RandomGeeza]

Checked my stats this morning, as I now do every morning over my cuppa T. Sure enough another discon, 1am on the head. Long after I was asleep and all appliances in this flat turned off. Can't think of anything outside that may have turned off/on. It's a quiet street full of families, so most are tucked up long before 11pm on a school night.

GRRR! 

[Lance]

1am is right in the window for BT work which could have been the cause. Unfortunately they don't always advise in advance they are doing it, nor do they admit afterwards

[Gary]

Stick your area code in here, it will hopefully show any work going on. http://status.zen.co.uk/broadband/

[RandomGeeza]

No such luck... BOO!

Edit: Although a helpful link, will keep an eye on that one.... Cheers Gary. And a pre-warn for a drop out on the 7th...

[Gary]

No such luck... BOO!

Edit: Although a helpful link, will keep an eye on that one.... Cheers Gary. And a pre-warn for a drop out on the 7th...

No worries, it is useful for keeping an eye on things. Good luck with the REIN 

[Bill]

Stick your area code in here, it will hopefully show any work going on. http://status.zen.co.uk/broadband/

Useful link that... if I put my area code in I get (for 7th March):

As part of BT?s ongoing capacity activities, which maintains best possible customer service, the following exchanges will be impacted by change (Abingdon). The capacity work in question is (SVLAN moves for capacity - programme number 6) within the exchange to move service from a heavily loaded device to one with spare capacity. There will be one service outage to End-Users of approximately 60 minutes within the period 01:00 - 07:00.

Strictly speaking I'm not on the Abingdon exchange, but I've no idea where the fibre goes. It will be interesting to see if I get any effect on my BQMs when they've finished

[RandomGeeza]

No worries, it is useful for keeping an eye on things. Good luck with the REIN 

Mr BT REIN turned up unannounced, just as well I'm always in.

Anywho... he did his tests, also randomly checked other properties in the block and is convinced that it is not REIN. He is seeing huge error rates across most of the connections but not all. As a result, he suspects cabling... it was also error-ing at the CAB. He has REIN checked the block and my apartment and it ain't us or our kit.

So, that's a load off, as it will be much easier to isolate, identify and fix. He's coming back on Friday afternoon to give it the works.

We might finally have some light at the end of the tunnel.

[Glenn]

  Hope it's not the train coming

[RandomGeeza]

Hope it's not the train coming

Likewise.... 

[Lance]

Glad you're getting somewhere with this!

[Gary]

REIN does not need to be from your block though it could be from anywhere, thats the thing. We turned the power off to our home and just ran the PC from the smart UPS so no REIN from our bungalow, but it could have been be from anyone that's attached to the cab in theory or something that's picking up RFI, say like a pump. Southern water put new pumps in to stop the floods and one of them was emitting a ton of RFI that my engineer mate found, and was close to our cab not sure if that got sorted as by then FTTC was soon to be on. Hope its not any of that, and its an easy fix for you.

[Baz]

Stick your area code in here, it will hopefully show any work going on. http://status.zen.co.uk/broadband/

so is it possible to check even closer and see whats happening in your local exchange

[RandomGeeza]

Mr BT called on Friday as promised, which was encouraging. To know someone has taken ownership is a relief.

Anywho, because we haven't had a drop since his tweaking and re-pairing on Wednesday, he has diarised to call, end of this week coming.

Having checked the stats this morning, up to 4 days uptime with no loss, and the SNR appears to be lowering as the DLM steadies the settings.

Could he have fixed it? I hope so... Although, experience has showed that this could be a lull before the storm, so to speak. Fingers crossed though.

He also mentioned that it was not REIN and that he was 99.9% sure it was a wiring fault.

Shame I can't bill BT for £140+VAT as a result of bettering their network. 

[mervl]

Shame I can't bill BT for £140+VAT as a result of bettering their network. 

You probably could if we all paid much more than the tenner or so they get of the share of line rental and half or whatever of that for broadband! But sorry, I'll pass on that one.

Name me one area of life where you don't have difficulty in getting the "right" person you need? Why should BT be different? I suspect that it's worse now than ever (in every walk of life); and that customers and the ISPs know more about the network performance than BT does (after all they're the ones that suffer it). Your doctor is an expert too, but does he/she know what you're experiencing better than you do? Even if they think they do. And neither broadband nor the body are perfect, they're both a mish-mash and very prone to disorders; and too often don't obey the rule book, however hard you try.

[RandomGeeza]

11 days uptime...

Need I say any more, I don't want to tempt fate.

[RandomGeeza]

A profile reset went through this morning. SNR is now stable at 6. Both on the up and down.

*Touches some wood*

Thus far we haven't had a single random drop out. And I think it is safe to say that the problem is now fixed.

It has certainly taken a long time, too long IMHO. And, accordingly to BT it was a wiring, pairing issue where the poles were too far apart, hence the connection was dropping... However, all's well that ends well.

[RandomGeeza]

OMG 

And it starts again...

Two months of solid service and today, 5 random discons this morning. I noticed one late last night, but put that down to an erroneous event. However, to learn of this morning's issues, puts me right back to square one.

And before anyone mentions interference, it isn't. It never was. BT confirmed that it was a pairing fault at the Cab.

I suspect, given the quick succession of the disconnections this morning, that an engineer has been in the Cab and has been faffing about. And has potentially undone the fix applied a few months ago for me. Such was the case a few weeks ago when an engineer was in the junction box in my apartment block, and didn't realise he was disconnecting my line and not the other apartments line. Apologies were quick to follow, however my confidence in BT waived further.

I can't help but feel like a Gerbil on a wheel.

Back to monitoring and logging. *Tuts*

[RandomGeeza]

A weekend of disconnections.

SNR is way up, upload sync speed is way down. What the ........