I need help but I am not tech-minded

[MrsGrey]

Hallo, I have tried to find the answer to my question in FAQs and I expect it is there but I don't understand the answers.
I Have the regular, not Max connection, and until recently all has been fine, though often very slow, even by my non-gaming standards. Now however (forgive the simpleton terminology) the little "i" light on my router flickers constantly and often goes out  --downloads impossible, speed is snail from which I take it that my connection is dropping. The wireless light also flickers constantly. I have tried connecting my PC to the router using the wired  connection to the router, but it is just as bad.
I have changed the filter that does the first split at the face-plate, but not the ADSL/phone filter. Could that be it? My router is quite old, a netgear DG834G. Should i replace it?
Any ideas? I don't really know about pings and sync speeds and snr, so please keep it simple!
Thank you for your help for a greying lady! 
MrsGrey

[Rik]

Hi

If I slip into jargon, feel free to whack me round the ears.

If the light on the router is merely flickering briefly, it's a sign of the connection being used, ie the router is talking to the exchange. If the connection drops, the light will go out, then start flashing amber before turning solid green again, are you seeing that happen?

Can you get into the router interface and take a look at the stats? To do this, you need to type http://192.168.0.1 <enter> in your browser. You should be asked for the user name and password, this defaults to admin and password, but you have have changed the password. From the screen which appears, click on 'Show statistics'. That will then display a window something like the one below. Can you either paste an image of that screen, or tell me what the figures are please? The ones I need to know are in the column marked Downstream.

Once we have some figures, we can try to work out what's happening. How do you connect to the phone line, ie are you using an extension lead, a permanently wired extension or are you plugged in to the master socket? What other equipment do you have connected to the line, eg phones, Sky box etc, and what connects to which filter (you say you have two)?

It's possible that you have a filter problem, but I don't have enough information to say at the moment.



Edit: typo

[attachment deleted by admin]

[mrapoc]

If its flashing like that and downloads etc. seem to be slow - Could somebody be "stealing" the internet?

Is your machine (and anything else for that matter) connected to the router, turned off? Make sure your wireless is passworded and if it is already - change it  to something only you know

[Rik]

Good thinking, Sam, I hadn't got round to wireless security yet.

[MrsGrey]

OK I have looked for the stats, but the table you have circled is not there, only the one above, ie the one showing Port x Status, Pkts etc. However, on the first page I have at least the Downstream figure, at 2272 kbps.
Answers to the other questions:
I'm used to the light flickering briefly, but now it is constant and sometimes goes out.. the numbers, showing the connection ports to the PC are also flickering worse. It varies-- yesterday i could not have posted here at all.
The router is password-protected and I'm sure no-one else knows the password.
The connection to the phone line goes: either "soap on a rope" which I take it means a microfilter on a short wire, splitting into Phone/Modem, or a filter that plugs directly into the socket -- makes no difference which I use. the only other equipment on the same socket is an analogue phone/fax-- not cordless. No Sky or anything else.
This is quite a new problem.
There is also one laptop connecting wireless, or wired, to the router, sometimes 2 or even 3, but this has never been an issue.
Hope that helps, and thanks very much for your time and knowledge.

 

[Rik]

OK I have looked for the stats, but the table you have circled is not there, only the one above, ie the one showing Port x Status, Pkts etc. However, on the first page I have at least the Downstream figure, at 2272 kbps.

Very odd, that screen shot was taken from a DG834G. Did you see figures anywhere for downstream attenuation or noise margin?

Answers to the other questions:
I'm used to the light flickering briefly, but now it is constant and sometimes goes out.. the numbers, showing the connection ports to the PC are also flickering worse. It varies-- yesterday i could not have posted here at all.

Do all the lights flicker together, ie could it be an issue with the router's power supply? Is the router running unusually warm to the touch? Using the supplied brackets to turn the router on its side might help.

The router is password-protected and I'm sure no-one else knows the password.

There are two possible passwords in the router. The first is the one you use when you log into the router. The other one is the wireless key, which is entered in the router and again on every machine that connects to it wirelessly. The one that Sam was thinking of is the second one, is that the one you mean?

The connection to the phone line goes: either "soap on a rope" which I take it means a microfilter on a short wire, splitting into Phone/Modem, or a filter that plugs directly into the socket -- makes no difference which I use.

Are you talking about the one-piece plug-in filters? They are generally not as good as the "soap on a rope" type. You should have received two of the latter type with the router, so it would be worth swapping the one-piece if you are using one.

the only other equipment on the same socket is an analogue phone/fax-- not cordless. No Sky or anything else.

Try unplugging the fax/phone - sometimes, analogue modems can cause problems.

[MrsGrey]

Very odd, that screen shot was taken from a DG834G.  Did you see figures anywhere for downstream attenuation or noise marginI failed to paste in a screen-shot-- sorry. but that table is missing-- there is a just a gap where it should be, above the 'Poll interval' box at the bottom. I have looked everywhere for the attenuation and noise margin-- nothing.
Do all the lights flicker together, ie could it be an issue with the router's power supply?
The internet light and the wireless llight DO flicker together. the router is always warm -- I don't think it is especially warmer, but that could be it. Also, I have had to keep turning it on and off, as the connection often needs to be re-set and I tend to unplug at the router-- that was particularly so when I was with plusnet! So I guess I may have damaged the connection that way. Ooops. If we did have any brackets they are long lost...
Are you talking about the one-piece plug-in filters? They are generally not as good as the "soap on a rope" type. You should have received two of the latter type with the router, so it would be worth swapping the one-piece if you are using one.
I did have "soap on a rope" and just swapped it for a one-piece connector I happened to have-- just the same with either.
Try unplugging the fax/phone - sometimes, analogue modems can cause problems.
I have unplugged the phone/fax-- no change.
Password is the network key.
I am wondering if it is just that the router is getting really old. Not sure how old, but must be at least 5 years

[Rik]

One possibility regarding the stats is that you're running an old version of the router's firmware, iirc, the early implementations didn't offer much in the way of stats.

The internet light and the wireless llight DO flicker together.

That's normal behaviour, so it's probably not an issue.

the router is always warm -- I don't think it is especially warmer, but that could be it.

Mine is 'gently' warm to the touch, but I could leave my hand on it all day without discomfort. Unless you feel that the router is unduly warm, it's probably not anything to worry about. If you have a compressed air spray, it would be worth blowing through any vents you can access.

Also, I have had to keep turning it on and off, as the connection often needs to be re-set and I tend to unplug at the router-- that was particularly so when I was with plusnet! So I guess I may have damaged the connection that way.

Unless you've been pulling the power lead out from the router, that shouldn't be a problem. It's probably easier to re-boot the router from within the browser interface though.

Ooops. If we did have any brackets they are long lost...

If you can use rubber or felt feet to give a little more air circulation under the router, it will help.

Password is the network key.

OK, so it's not likely to be anyone piccybacking your connection then.

I am wondering if it is just that the router is getting really old. Not sure how old, but must be at least 5 years

It may be, but I'm reluctant to get you to spend money when it might be the line that's the problem.

Try downloading Routerstats from here and see if you can get the missing information that way.

[Scottyboy]

I am having very similar issues which I will post a new topic about rather than sidetrack MrsGrey's problems. But out of curiousity. Where are you in the country?

[MrsGrey]

Scottyboy-- I am in London, East Finchley.

The router is only slightly warm although I have come home sometimes to find it covered by stuff-- not me!
Shameful admission-- I have been pulling out and re-inserting the power lead to re-set the connection.
I am quite proud that I have configured Routerstats. However, I get the same page without the relevant table with the Downstream  info. So no use.
What can I do without up-to-date firmware so i can get these stats from Netgear site?
Maybe i should borrow someone else's router, or would it work to use a USB non-wireless modem to test the line?

[Rik]

You have three choices, update the router firmware (download from here making sure you choose the appropriate model), borrow a router or use a USB modem. The latter two options will tell us what we need to know about the line, but won't tell us anything about the router.

[MrsGrey]

The latter two options will tell us what we need to know about the line, but won't tell us anything about the router.
Good point. I will update the firmware first. Watch this space!
Thanks

[MrsGrey]

Success! Actually managed to upgrade with no major glitches. The stats are there-- so congrats--well diagnosed!
Here are the stats: ADSL Link, Downstream 
Connection Speed 2272 kbps
Line Attenuation 38 db
Noise Margin 19 db

What does that mean?
NB today is a very good day, comparatively-- last night was impossible.

[Rik]

For that attenuation (38db), I'd expect a healthier noise margin, 25db or better. I suspect, therefore, that your wiring might benefit from some attention, eg removing the ring wire from all sockets, possibly simplifying the wiring, removing unused sockets (if any) etc.

With those figures, if you wanted to move to Max, you should be able to get 4.5Mbps or better.

Keep an eye on the figures using Routerstats, and see if you get much fluctuation in the noise margin.

[john]

Rik, Although I'm not having any particular problems I've been following this thread and I've looked at the Router  Stats screen image you posted in your first reply. In this the downstream noise margin as 9db.

As I am also using a Netgear DG834G wilreless router (firmware version V4.01.20 ) I decided to see what figures I got too. However when I did this my figure for the downstream noise margin is 2147483645db ! I'm therefore a bit concerned that it's not giving the right value as it's a factor of about 238 million times different from yours (I presume yours is typical figure).

My stats are as follows :


ADSL Link              Downstream           Upstream
Connection Speed   6464 kps               448 kps
Line Attenuation     42 db                    11.5 db
Noise Margin          2147483645 db        22 db

Should I be concerned about this ?

Although I'm not having any problems I expect I could tweak some settings to optimise things and intend to get round to doing this soon. It's just that I've been so grateful that I have a connection that works compared to when I was with Orange that I've been a bit reluctant to mess with it.

[MrsGrey]

I THINK I have configured the Routerstats to record and save graphs round the clock. it is recording and I hope it will save. We will see.
Meanwhile, do you think that that noise/attenuation would account for the poor downloading /surfing speed? I am wondering how to go about those wiring overhauls which seem pretty radical, when until recently things were pretty OK, then suddenly not. My son said it may have been when they dug up the road to repair a water pipe, but I pointed out that the phone wire is above ground...
I have been wary of going Max after all the horror stories when Plusnet was having a lot of issues with it.

[Rik]

Hi John

The Netgear is trying to tell you that you have a negative noise margin, unfortunately, they didn't allow for this in the software. You are on the point of re-sync when you see a large number like that. You only need be concerned, however, if it happens frequently - Max is designed to work 'on the edge' and starts with a 6db target (unless it's been changed for some reason. I had mine increased from 6 to 9db, as a result I rarely drop the connection.). Netgear's regularly 'slide' the noise figure, ie it will decrease over a period, but they tend to hang onto the connection down to about -3db. As noise occurs around you, the figure will drop and recover (I see a 2db fluctuation for most of the day, but a peak swing of around 7db, hence my 9db target).

One thing which can make a big difference to the noise is to remove the ring wire from terminal three of all sockets.

[Rik]

I THINK I have configured the Routerstats to record and save graphs round the clock. it is recording and I hope it will save. We will see.

It should record for as long as the computer is on and the program is running.

Meanwhile, do you think that that noise/attenuation would account for the poor downloading /surfing speed?

Noise could well be causing errors on the line, and this would potentially need re-transmissions, hence the slow down.

Have you tried pinging? Hit Start > Run > type CMD and hit <ENTER>.

In the resulting window, type ping www.bbc.co.uk, see what figures you get.

I am wondering how to go about those wiring overhauls which seem pretty radical, when until recently things were pretty OK, then suddenly not.

They sound worse than they are. The biggest improvement most people get is from removing the faceplate and lifting the wire from terminal three at each socket. Always start with that and see what needs to be done after it.

I have been wary of going Max after all the horror stories when Plusnet was having a lot of issues with it.

I think Max was greeted by over optimistic expectations. Now, we have a much better idea of what it can deliver, and more experience in identifying problems. I could only get a 1Mbps fixed-rate connection here, but I have a perfectly stable 2.5Mbps Max connection, 3MBps on a good day. I think it's worth going for, but you have to assess your needs.

[john]

Hi Rik,

Thanks for the quick reply, I'll keep an eye on the stats. Removing the ring wire from the sockets is something else I've got to get round to as well.

[MrsGrey]

OK ping results:

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.224.85] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.58.224.85: bytes=32 time=259ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.85: bytes=32 time=169ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.85: bytes=32 time=142ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.85: bytes=32 time=295ms TTL=251

Ping statistics for 212.58.224.85:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 142ms, Maximum = 295ms, Average = 216ms

Good? Bad?

[MrsGrey]

BTW I don't have a new-style NTE5 ( I have been reading your wiring guide). Does trhat mean I should not unscrew it?

[Rik]

Bad.

Mine:

ping www.bbc.net.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.224.115] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.58.224.115: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.115: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.115: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=251
Reply from 212.58.224.115: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=251

Ping statistics for 212.58.224.115:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 21ms, Maximum = 24ms, Average = 22ms

That's with interleaving on, which reputedly adds 20ms.

Try pinging www.idnet.net, if that gives similar results, I suspect you have a high error count on your line. To find out for sure, in Routerstats, click on the cog, select the Netgear Telnet tab, check the 'enable' box, hit 'Save' then 'Close'. Click on the Telnet Router tab which will now be showing in the main screen, hit Connect, then look at the error count. Note that and check it again after an interval, the speed of change is what matters.

It's possible that the ping time is being affected by other things. What do you have MTU and RWIN set to?

[Rik]

BTW I don't have a new-style NTE5 ( I have been reading your wiring guide). Does trhat mean I should not unscrew it?

You would still potentially benefit from disconnecting the ring wire at every socket.

[MrsGrey]

It's possible that the ping time is being affected by other things. What do you have MTU and RWIN set to?  I'm sorry I haven't been paying attention in class and i don't even know what these are!. In fact I don't know what a ping is either. It seems to be the time a byte of data takes to go there and back, so less is better. I see yours is very different!
Here are the results with idnet:

C:\Documents and Settings\Jinny>ping www.idnet.net

Pinging www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=887ms TTL=61
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=892ms TTL=61
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=850ms TTL=61
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=516ms TTL=61

Ping statistics for 212.69.36.10:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 516ms, Maximum = 892ms, Average = 786ms

Awful!! It is getting to be evening so maybe things are getting worse in terms of noise? I am expecting a grind to a halt like last night.
I will try the netgear telnet thing. Phew, many thanks i really appreciate this. I think my teens should be helping here.

[Rik]

Mmm. You have a significant issue with those ping times. Check the telnet info on the router and see if there are high error counts. If so, it would pay you to check your wiring, removing the ring wire and minimising the number of attached devices, albeit temporarily.

MTU = Maximum transmission unit
RWIN = Receive window

They should really not affect ping times, as these are tested with 32 bytes of data, but they can seriously affect throughput. Have a read of the sticky on optimising your connection, that explains the issue in more detail and has links to enable you to get the software to modify MTU/RWIN and sites to test the result on. See if that helps at all.

Let me know how you get on and we'll see what else you can explore for yourself, after which it will be the time to involve support, and possibly BT.

I'm off now as Sue is indicating she can't keep dinner much longer without it spoiling - and I hate to let food spoil!