New Deals Buyer Beware

[Independent]

Hi all

Been with Idnet over ten years, dont use forum much as have had very few problems, decided to look at the new packages on offer as on old ADSL Max with restrictive download limit but good call package.

After deliberation took new pro package with extra dowload, no problem, however the £6 surcharge for keeping my old "special phone package " seemed wastefull so decided to change to new standard line with anytime + mobile instead of my old international package, this at an increase of £3.15 a month overall but should be worth it (I thought). "Big mistake"

As a lay person in this world I read that all O2,Vodafone, 3 and EE calls were included, however MVNO calls are not.

MVNO calls meant nothing to me so I ordered, then an epiphany so I Googled and found that MVNO includes in the UK alone 123 other mobile providers including Tesco, Sainsbury, Virgin, BT-yes BT mobile, Asda, Go mobile, Lebera, The Post Office, Talk Talk just to name a few. even though these MVNO (alternative) providers work through O2, Vodafone, 3 and EE networks.

After phoning Idnet it has become apparent there is NO WAY of knowing if the mobile number you are dialling is directly with a main provider or an MVNO as they all begin with 07, so you could easily get a huge monthly bill without warning. Idnet also say they are not prepared to go back to my old package so I am left £3.15 a month out of pocket as I can only revert to the "NEW" international call deal.

Although I can make this work by asking each person I phone what provider they use (really clever)after ten years of loyalty to be told I should have read the small print is to me not customer service but a pure "CON" to make money, having endured Idnet's balls up's such as the World Cup it would seem they have now lowered their standards to match others by not making clear the pitfalls of MVNO mobile calls in order to profiteer from the unwary.

My rant is over please feel free to add "usefull" comments although I will not be around to answer.

[Simon]

Have to admit, this is the first time I've heard of MVNO, but it sounds a bit iffy all round. 

I suspect the reason IDNet won't revert to your old package is due to the recent changes (increases) in BT line rental charges, but that's only a guess. 

Perhaps the lesson learned here is to avoid calling mobiles from a landline, but it's a shame that the information isn't displayed more clearly. 

[Steve]

Must admit I've started getting a little cross with SWMBO if she calls a mobile from a landline, hopefully I'll get the message home eventually.

[Gary]

Due to the compression of mobile signals I prefer landline to landline for voice quality, (HD mobile calling is only used within the same network) so I don't have to strain to hear the other party so clearly. But I always call mobiles from mobiles never from landlines, to me that's always been common sense.

[Steve]

It's a 30 day contract for both phone and adsl broadband so it maybe worthwhile looking around as there's no point wasting money.

[Technical Ben]

Were mobile calls included previously? If not, have we lost anything, or just gained half of the mobs for free(ish)?

[pctech]

I suspect the reason IDNet exclude MVNOs is that these companies may levy a higher interconnection charge than their host network.

In some cases the MVNO company may operate it's own infrastructure (interconnects. subscriber management servers, etc) and only rely on the host network for access to their radio access network (the masts).

But yes, if am calling a mobile I'll tend to use my mobile as it's cheaper than what I'd pay on the landline.

[Gary]

It's a 30 day contract for both phone and adsl broadband so it maybe worthwhile looking around as there's no point wasting money.

Wouldn't it just be easier to get a cheap pay as you go mobile...

[Clive]

Thanks for the heads up on this because I have a package that supposedly includes mobile phones and I've told my SWMBO she can now call mobiles for long chats with friends and family.     Presumably EE is Orange so that will cover most of her calls.  But our own mobile is Tesco so that's not free. 

[Tacitus]

Have to admit, this is the first time I've heard of MVNO, but it sounds a bit iffy all round. 

Although I have heard of them, I'd be interested to learn how they work.  AFAIK they are virtual networks that piggy back on the main suppliers but offer cheaper call rates particularly for international calls.  I think Lebarra makes this its main selling point.

I suspect the reason IDNet won't revert to your old package is due to the recent changes (increases) in BT line rental charges, but that's only a guess. 

It would be useful to know if this is the case and how the charging system of these MVNO networks affects iDNet.  I doubt you'd get anything specific out of them, but it would be helpful to know in what way calling via these networks affects iDNet's charging

.........it's a shame that the information isn't displayed more clearly. 

I agree - it should be given much more prominence as increasing numbers of people use these.  I wonder if it includes GiffGaff?

As for the OPs claim that iDNet are deliberately trying to con customers I think this is plain rubbish.  Given their past record of good service, I feel it is unwise to attribute to malevolence what may be explained by error.

[Simon]

It does actually state under the call package:

Unlimited Anytime + Mobile also includes calls made to O2, Vodafone, Three & EE (Orange/T-Mobile). Calls to personal numbers and MVNO providers with numbers starting 07 are not included.

But would an average customer be expected to know what MVNO actually means?  Then again, is it really IDNet's job to explain?   

Also, what are 'personal numbers' in this context?

[Technical Ben]

Well, Tesco is not O2, so the small print is clear, that only O2/voda/three and EE (orange/T) are included.

[Simon]

Yeah, but the point is, how do you know which network the person you're calling is on?

[nowster]

Yeah, but the point is, how do you know which network the person you're calling is on?

It's totally impossible as numbers can be ported between any of the carriers by requesting a PAC reference. My own mobile number is an Orange one, but I'm on a T-Mobile SIM (I know they're all part of EE, but their network still differentiates and they do operate separate network MNCs even now).

Personal numbers usually start 070 and have always been expensive to call.

[Simon]

It's totally impossible as numbers can be ported between any of the carriers by requesting a PAC reference. My own mobile number is an Orange one, but I'm on a T-Mobile SIM (I know they're all part of EE, but their network still differentiates and they do operate separate network MNCs even now).

Yes, that's the trouble, so the 'small print' is effectively irrelevant, as there's no way of telling if you'll be charged for the call or not.

Personal numbers usually start 070 and have always been expensive to call.

The only numbers I've seen starting 070 are those displayed on phones you see in TV programmes. 

[Gary]

It seems wrong that Virtual Mobile networks are not included considering they piggy back on the main networks anyway  Tesco is O2 so is giffgaff etc (which may all soon be BT as it looks like telefonica is selling O2 to them)

[Glenn]

BT are looking at both O2 & EE, with Three circling to buy whichever one is left.

[Gary]

BT are looking at both O2 & EE, with Three circling to buy whichever one is left.

Be interesting to see which way it goes especially since they bought Spectrum in the  2.6GHz band and O2 4G is in 800Mhz. Having O2 back would give them about 26% of the UK market. EE would cost about a billion more than O2 at £10 Billion for EE. I think O2 is probably on the cards as Telefonica really want to get shot of O2, just as long as BT dont call it Cellnet again  ;)Three have deals with EE so maybe they will go after them.

[Tacitus]

......is it really IDNet's job to explain?   

Strictly speaking no, but don't forget most posters on here are reasonably clued up and iDNet is really aiming at the B2B and SME markets.  OTOH anyone reading that it doesn't include MVNO operators and doesn't understand, might at least pick up the phone and ask what it means. 

On balance, I'm inclined to think a little more explanation would be a good idea. 

[Glenn]

Be interesting to see which way it goes especially since they bought Spectrum in the  2.6GHz band and O2 4G is in 800Mhz. Having O2 back would give them about 26% of the UK market. EE would cost about a billion more than O2 at £10 Billion for EE. I think O2 is probably on the cards as Telefonica really want to get shot of O2, just as long as BT dont call it Cellnet again  ;)Three have deals with EE so maybe they will go after them.

Three have recently bought O2 Ireland, so there is potential there. Three & EE jointly run MBNL and have done for the past 7 years (first with T-Mobile then Orange), most of their masts are now consolidated between the companies.

[pctech]

Tacitus, see my explanation above.

In some cases at least the MVNO only relies on the host network for radio network access.

[Technical Ben]

Yeah, but the point is, how do you know which network the person you're calling is on?

I don't. I can understand that's a problem, as we usually know with local rate numbers and their prefix.

No easy solution IMO, as mobile operators can (in theory?) charge what they like... 

[Simon]

TBH, it seems to me that it would be clearer if IDNet either included calls to ALL mobiles, including MVNOs but excluding 070 numbers, or none at all.

[zappaDPJ]

I think it needs regulating on. It's an utterly ridiculous situation.

[Simon]

Does the same apply with other ISPs, I wonder?

[zappaDPJ]

I don't know Simon, although I believe some don't include calls to any mobile numbers. It could be that IDNet are offering something more than other providers but it's somewhat irrelevant as there's no way to identify a MVNO number.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting this is an issue with IDNet, it needs regulating so that it can't occur. It's Russian roulette, pure and simple.

[Steve]

Looking through BTs price list is a nightmare but I can't see any differentiation of price costs for landline to mobile

[MisterW]

Likewise for PlusNet

Edit: I remembered seeing something a while ago regarding EE/TMobile charging for calls to MVNO operators Lyca and Lebarra, here it is http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2011/07/05/t-mobile-and-lycamobile-trade-insults-over-charges/

[nowster]

Looking through BTs price list is a nightmare but I can't see any differentiation of price costs for landline to mobile

It is indeed a nightmare.

https://www.bt.com/pricing/current/Call_Charges_boo/0016_d0e5.htm  lists standard residential charges.

https://www.bt.com/pricing/current/Call_Charges_boo/1631_d0e5.htm  lists dialling codes.

fm1 = Telefonica O2 Ltd
fm2 = Core Comms Services, Flextel Ltd
fm3 = EE (and former T-Mobile numbers)
fm4 = Orange
fm5 = C&W, TalkTalk and Vodafone
fm6 = Three
fm7 = TalkTalk
fm8 = C&W, Core Telecom Ltd
fm9 = Magrathea
fm10 = 24Seven Comms Ltd, Citrus Telecomms Ltd, Core Telecom Ltd, Jedillon Grant Ltd, Magrathea, Oxygen8 Comms Ltd, QX Telecom Ltd, Swiftnet Ltd, Telecom Media Ltd
fm11 = C&W, Core Telecom Ltd, Swiftnet Ltd
fm12 = Magrathea, Mundio Mobile
fm13/fm14/fm15 = no longer active
fm16 = C&W

No mention of the likes of Giffgaff, Asda, Tesco or Virgin Mobile.

[peasblossom]

Apart from VM, the others in that list use existing networks not their own. Giff Gaff is owned by O2, and Tesco Mobile is partly, for example, and The People's Operator uses EE's network though it's independent of them. Would they need to list these companies specifically?

[Independent]

Hi All

Nice to see so many comments on my post and the fact that IDnet have responded so well.

After my rant on Friday ( 05/12/14 ) my hat is off to Simon and staff at Idnet , looked on the website today ( Tue 08/12/14 ) and found they have produced a complete list ( 42 pages ) of Mobile/MVNO and private numbers that are and more importantly are not included in the "UK anytime + mobile" phone offer, so no more guess work.

Now that is more like the Idnet I know and use because of what I call customer service, excellent work guy's.

(Pity my account is still adrift as now being charged for calls on anytime, nevermind sort that tomorrow)

Well done IDnet

[pctech]

In some cases MVNOs only use the host network for transmission which probably explains the price differences as I explained earlier.

[Simon]

Hi All

Nice to see so many comments on my post and the fact that IDnet have responded so well.

After my rant on Friday ( 05/12/14 ) my hat is off to Simon and staff at Idnet , looked on the website today ( Tue 08/12/14 ) and found they have produced a complete list ( 42 pages ) of Mobile/MVNO and private numbers that are and more importantly are not included in the "UK anytime + mobile" phone offer, so no more guess work.

Now that is more like the Idnet I know and use because of what I call customer service, excellent work guy's.

(Pity my account is still adrift as now being charged for calls on anytime, nevermind sort that tomorrow)

Well done IDnet

That's excellent.  Thanks for letting us know. 

[Simon]

Sorry for the thickness, but what do the chargebands mean?

[MisterW]

and found they have produced a complete list ( 42 pages ) of Mobile/MVNO and private numbers that are and more importantly are not included in the "UK anytime + mobile" phone offer, so no more guess work.

Sorry for the thickness, but what do the chargebands mean?

The FM1-FM6(albeit not 2?) are the codes for the main networks since they could(but don't I think)make different termination charges. As for the others, well I've no idea.
Interestingly, my native Giffgaff no is shown as FM1 (O2) and an Orange no ported to Giffgaff is shown as FM4(Orange) and so both would appear to be included  in any mobile package.

[nowster]

Sorry for the thickness, but what do the chargebands mean?

You look them up in the other table here: https://www.idnet.net/voice_products/view_callrates.php?callrate=2012_LINEONLY

They don't actually mean anything. They're just labels.