What latency should I expect?

[Foddy]

Hi,

I switched from BT Infinity to IDNet earlier in the year, both BT and IDNet are/were the same 80/20 FTTC service.

Initially, I was impressed with the latency I was seeing - with BT it was around 10ms, but 7ms with IDNet. However, in March something happened, and it dropped all the way to 22ms at about 5am. It's been like that since, all the latency is on the first hop.

Here's a graph from thinkbroadband from the time it happened:



I use the Internet connection for home-working and latency makes a big difference with remote desktop access. Is 22ms acceptable, or should I put an enquiry in? Clearly it can be better as it was between 20th Feb and 11th March.

Thanks,

Richard

[zappaDPJ]

22ms is fine. One thing I would say from looking at your BQM is after the re-sync there's some noticeable packet loss which is not so good. If that was a one off then I wouldn't worry about it but if it's a regular occurrence I would be a little concerned and it might account for the re-sync and increase in latency.

[Steve]

I agree with Zap however just wondering if the line management has upped the interleave state, it may come back down but can take several weeks.

[Foddy]

Thanks, both, I will leave it for now and see what happens. It's just a bit frustrating as it was previously three times the speed.

Ta,

Richard

[Gary]

If you are on a Huawei cabinet and have an ECI modem or non complaint router/vdsl modem speed drops and latency increases have been seen. The ECI modem needs an update to work with G.inp which is being rolled out and has now been finished on all Huawei cabs, (in theory) ECI cabs come next, and that sounds a lot like what's happened to you. See Thinkbroadband for details http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4399541-ginp-and-eci-modem-problem.html?fpart=all

[Foddy]

If you are on a Huawei cabinet and have an ECI modem or non complaint router/vdsl modem speed drops and latency increases have been seen. The ECI modem needs an update to work with G.inp which is being rolled out and has now been finished on all Huawei cabs, (in theory) ECI cabs come next, and that sounds a lot like what's happened to you. See Thinkbroadband for details http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4399541-ginp-and-eci-modem-problem.html?fpart=all

Thanks for that, it looks promising. I'm pretty sure I have an ECI modem (I'll check tonight) but how do I find out if it's a Huawei cabinet?

If it were you, would you try and speak to IDNet/Openreach about it, or buy a Huawei modem on eBay?

Thanks.

[Tacitus]

The ECI modem needs an update to work with G.inp which is being rolled out and has now been finished on all Huawei cabs, (in theory) ECI cabs come next, and that sounds a lot like what's happened to you. See Thinkbroadband for details http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4399541-ginp-and-eci-modem-problem.html?fpart=all

It's also worth mentioning that together with G.INP, Vectoring is also being rolled out.  Again Huawei cabinets appear to be first in line and my (Huawei) cabinet has recently been enabled for both.  I'm not sure whether Vectoring would affect Ping times - it's  more likely to affect the SNR - but if you have got an ECI modem with a Huawei cab, it could be having some effect.

Take a look here http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/street_cabinets_etc.html and see if the nearest cab to you matches any of these.  It's not a foolproof way of deciding your cabinet, but support should be able to give you the cab no you are connected to.

[Gary]

It's also worth mentioning that together with G.INP, Vectoring is also being rolled out.  Again Huawei cabinets appear to be first in line and my (Huawei) cabinet has recently been enabled for both.  I'm not sure whether Vectoring would affect Ping times - it's  more likely to affect the SNR - but if you have got an ECI modem with a Huawei cab, it could be having some effect.

Take a look here http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/street_cabinets_etc.html and see if the nearest cab to you matches any of these.  It's not a foolproof way of deciding your cabinet, but support should be able to give you the cab no you are connected to.

Vectoring is still in trial and BT has only announced 100 out of 61,000 cabs are to be enabled, so you must be one of the lucky ones. It does seem as you say its Huawei first. I imagine we will see a full vectoring roll out towards the end of the year if G.fast is to start in the next two years.

[Gary]

Thanks for that, it looks promising. I'm pretty sure I have an ECI modem (I'll check tonight) but how do I find out if it's a Huawei cabinet?

If it were you, would you try and speak to IDNet/Openreach about it, or buy a Huawei modem on eBay?

Thanks.

As far as I'm aware ISP's cannot see G.inp on lines, Zen cant for example. You need a HG612 with SP08 firmware (SP08 is the latest firmware SP010 is old SP06 I think works, avoid SP10's) Instructions on how to update it are on thinkbroadband. Ebay are selling modems at sill prices right now. Talk to IDNet and send them some links. BT are aware of the Lantiq chipset Broadcom chipset issue on Huawei cabs, but getting a bod who knows this may be hard.

[Foddy]

Take a look here http://www.robertos.me.uk/html/street_cabinets_etc.html and see if the nearest cab to you matches any of these.  It's not a foolproof way of deciding your cabinet, but support should be able to give you the cab no you are connected to.

Thanks, no luck with identification - I'm now doubting that the cabinet I thought was BT is actually BT (there's Virgin on the street as well). The nearest cabinet is black with AL141-03 stencilled on it, but the next two (AL141-02 and AL141-04) are exactly the same except they're green.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74438,-0.330589,3a,36.9y,248.49h,68.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1syU9GR2AMn5PyReXSXOQxww!2e0

If that's not the BT cabinet, I can't think of another type anywhere close-by.

[Tacitus]

BT are aware of the Lantiq chipset Broadcom chipset issue on Huawei cabs, but getting a bod who knows this may be hard.

That's interesting.  I'm currently running a Draytek 2760 which uses Lantiq and I know my cab is a Huawei with a Broadcom chipset. Note that this is plugged straight to the line - it's not using PPOE via a BT modem.  I'm on the capped 40 Mbps service so it's probably not making a huge difference to me at present but these are the stats I'm getting:

> show vdsl
  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 40000000 bps   US Actual Rate       : 10000000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 52199312 bps   US Attainable Rate   : 16950000 bps
   DS Path Mode            :  Interleave    US Path Mode         :  Interleave
   DS Interleave Depth     :        0       US Interleave Depth  :        0
   NE Current Attenuation  :       18 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        5  dB
   DS actual PSD           :     7. 9 dB    US actual PSD        :    13. 1  dB
   NE CRC Count            :        0       FE CRC Count         :        0
   NE ES Count             :        0       FE  ES Count         :        0
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        3
   ITU Version[0]          : b5004946       ITU Version[1]       : 544e0000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-04-08-00-00-06
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :        0 dB    Far SNR Margin       :       10  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004244       CO ITU Version[1]    : 434da485
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < BDCM >

> vdsl optn status
trellis      [US] =     ON, [DS] =     ON.
bitswap      [US] =      0, [DS] =      0.
              [0: default(ON), 1: ON, 2: OFF]
sra          [US] =      0, [DS] =      0.
              [0: default, 1: MANUAL, 2: AT_INIT, 3: DYNAMIC , 4: DYNAMIC_SOS]
retx         [US] =    ---, [DS] =     ON.
aelem        ON
G.Vector     ON

It is worth noting that the max attainable rate dropped from some 56000000 bps to its current 52199312 bps following the implementation of G.INP  Like I say as I'm capped it's not making a difference.  Since interleaving is 0, presumably I'm on Fastpath, although my Pings are around 30 which is pretty much what they've been for years.

[Gary]

Thanks, no luck with identification - I'm now doubting that the cabinet I thought was BT is actually BT (there's Virgin on the street as well). The nearest cabinet is black with AL141-03 stencilled on it, but the next two (AL141-02 and AL141-04) are exactly the same except they're green.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74438,-0.330589,3a,36.9y,248.49h,68.04t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1syU9GR2AMn5PyReXSXOQxww!2e0

If that's not the BT cabinet, I can't think of another type anywhere close-by.

put your number in here, https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html it should tell you what cab you are on. Then go hunting

[Gary]

It is worth noting that the max attainable rate dropped from some 56000000 bps to its current 52199312 bps following the implementation of G.INP  Like I say as I'm capped it's not making a difference.  Since interleaving is 0, presumably I'm on Fastpath, although my Pings are around 30 which is pretty much what they've been for years.

its now fastpath with G.INP enabled, if there is no firmware update for your router (later Lantiq chipsets are more capable of G.inp than earlier ones even the HH5 A is having issues as it uses Lantiq the B revision uses broadcom) G.inp should reduce latency and help on noisy lines, 30ms is quite a lot tbh my ping is about 7ms at present. If you stuck a HG612 updated to SP08 your latency should be much better in theory. Most compatible modems have seen drops in latency and speed increases since G.inp went live.

[Gary]

This just up on TBB http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6921-g-inp-roll-out-receives-mixed-reactions.html Seems BT were surprised that HG612's were used on ECI cabs and vice versa...

"ECI modems need a firmware upgrade to work with G.INP and the way this should work is that ECI hardware connected to a ECI cabinet will see the firmware update pushed to the modem before G.INP is turned on. Of course if someone is away on holiday for a couple of weeks, or the hot-spare modem that a home worker might keep will not see this firmware update and at this time what would happen is that the modem simply refuses to sync. It has been reported on our forums that a DLM reset will resolve the problem and push the new firmware once more, but apparently this is not the correct procedure for providers to use with Openreach saying 'the ISPs should be aware of this and how to deal, because the product spec was communicated and the effect on some lines anticipated'. So what exactly is the correct procedure we don't know - maybe a trade secret"

[Foddy]

put your number in here, https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html it should tell you what cab you are on. Then go hunting

Ah! Cabinet 60, apparently - thanks. I've found one on google street view, and it's definitely a Huawei. I'm not certain it's 60, but seems likely.

[Tacitus]

its now fastpath with G.INP enabled, if there is no firmware update for your router (later Lantiq chipsets are more capable of G.inp than earlier ones even the HH5 A is having issues as it uses Lantiq the B revision uses broadcom) G.inp should reduce latency and help on noisy lines, 30ms is quite a lot tbh my ping is about 7ms at present. If you stuck a HG612 updated to SP08 your latency should be much better in theory. Most compatible modems have seen drops in latency and speed increases since G.inp went live.

Sounds as though a router with anything but a Broadcom chip, is in trouble.......   Draytek do offer alternative firmware, with different modem codes and alternatives to take advantage of Vectoring, but I do wonder whether it's simpler to buy a Broadcom based router.  Some of the Zyxels use Broadcom but I'm not keen on either their UI or their rather haphazard way of releasing firmware updates.

I can borrow a Zyxel SBG3300 so it could be worth a punt or I suppose I could try unlocking the HG 612 that BT supplied.  Unlocked ones on eBay fetch silly prices - £60 for an unlocked one with the latest firmware.

[MisterW]

Looks like TP Link have got a f/w upgrade for their W9980 to support G.INP http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,138451.0/topicseen.html

[Foddy]

Well, fascinating. I've read the forum posts, looked at the latency and download speeds other people with ECI modems have, everything fits (22ms vs 7ms, 62Mbps vs 76Mbps, packet loss). It's clear that's the problem ...

Then I double-checked my modem, and I have a Huawei ... oops!

I've not hacked it, so have no idea what firmware it has. How safe is it to do? I really can't afford to brick it and be without an Internet connection...

Or is there another way of forcing an upgrade, if it has missed one?

Thanks,

Richard

[Tacitus]

Then I double-checked my modem, and I have a Huawei ... oops!

I've not hacked it, so have no idea what firmware it has. How safe is it to do? I really can't afford to brick it and be without an Internet connection...

Use at your own risk, but the instructions for how to unlock it are here:

https://huaweihg612hacking.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/hg612_unlock_instructions_v1-3.pdf

My understanding is that if you're connected to a BT line then firmware updates should eventually be pushed to the HG612, but someone more knowledgeable than me will be along soon to explain it all.

[Glenn]

Also take a look at Bald Eagles posts here on idnetters http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,32173.msg731385.html#msg731385

[Steve]

I guess I'm wondering what software version I've got , not that I have any concerns over my connection, latency is as low as it's ever been and throughput is close to the sync level.

[zappaDPJ]

To keep this thread on topic, the posts referring to IDNet's current network issues have been moved to a new thread here: http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,32697.0.html

[Foddy]

Hi,

I just thought I'd let you know that I've purchased a cheapish replacement modem on eBay, upgraded it to the latest version and switched them over. Results look good so far:



So, either the modem hadn't been upgraded for some reason, or it was a hardware fault. Either way, I'm happy now.

Thanks for all the help,

Richard

[Steve]