Decisions, decisions...

[Simon]

I am coming to the point where I will need more data storage.  I don't want to use Cloud services, so I am looking for local solutions.

My main computer is probably 7 or 8 years old now, and I guess the easy answer to this would be to get a new one.  However, I really don't want the hassle of having to move and reinstall everything onto a new machine at this stage, especially as, to all intents and purposes, this one is still working well, plus, I want to keep Windows 7 as I know some of my older programs will run on it.

So, what to do?  I could carry on buying bigger external hard drives, but I'd then also need to get another powered USB hub as the current one is full.  I've also been considering a NAS, but I'm not exactly sure what these do, and whether they can just be used for lots of storage (the 'server' side would be largely redundant).  I'd also quite like to neaten things up a little, as I've currently got three external drives sat on the top of the computer case, which isn't really a problem in itself, but makes the area look a little cluttered.

Ideas?

[Simon]

Having said I don't want a new machine, I've just seen this, which looks a reasonable deal, and put together by CCL, a company I have used before, and have found to be very good:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-multimedia-Speed-A25231uH-Windows/dp/B00EE5552K/ref=pd_sim_sbs_147_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1YEYA9ATRXN36JABVKFQ

I could add extra internal hard drives to this, to save on some of the clutter.

[Glenn]

On the NAS side of things Synology make a very good range of products, one being http://www.expansys.com/synology-ds215j-2-bay-nas-270340/ it just needs a couple of HDU's adding.

The feature set can be found here https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/5.2/features

[colirv]

I've also been considering a NAS, but I'm not exactly sure what these do, and whether they can just be used for lots of storage (the 'server' side would be largely redundant).

That's the way I decided to go, although I use a couple of these, which are a bit cheaper. I just use them for storage, preferring the Serviio media server in my PC for streaming.

[john]

I bought a Synology DS213J NAS nearly a couple of years ago now together with 2 x 3tb drives. I can't remember exactly which drives they were but I think they were these Western Digital Red drives which are recommended for NAS drives. Synology make lots of NAS drives and the one I bought may have been superseded now.

They were easy to set up and together they have worked faultlessly since I installed them. I have downloaded music, photos and movies onto them and can access them from my laptop, tablet or smart TV. The only problem I have is that my Samsung TV won't let me fast forward movies but my older Sony TV does. However the Samsung TV has an app called DSVIDEO which displays the artwork and description of movies (although it sometimes gets this wrong) when selecting them from the remote control.

I've very pleased with the Synology NAS and I'm sure it has other features that I haven't investigated yet. I get e-mails every so often suggesting I do an update but it seems to do this all by itself anyway. In fact it sits next to the router and I leave it on continually and never touch it but it does go into a sleep mode after a period of non-use.

If you are looking for additional storage space I think it's an option you should consider unless you really want to buy another PC.

[Simon]

That looks a good bit of kit, John.  But, to add a couple of 3Tb hard drives brings it near to the cost of a new PC. 

I still can't quite get my head around what a NAS is / does.  As I said, I don't want to go down the Cloud storage route.  Could I, for example, have iTunes on the NAS, and be able to access it via any device on my home network?  As I said, it's mainly storage I need, so I'm not really looking fo a much more complex solution.  If it would just act as a bank of hard drives, that's really all I need, but is that the most economical option?

[john]

I don't use iTunes but I suspect it would and no doubt somebody on here could confirm it or not. You don't have to buy 2 x 3 tb drives as one drive is an automatic backup of the other but it's safer to do so. You could buy smaller capacity drive(s) but I think it's less cost effective.

If it's just for storage then presumably the most economical option would be to buy a single hard drive that has the capacity to handle your foreseeable requirements but a NAS does have greater functionality that I think you would find useful especially if you would like to access data, particularly media, on other devices on your network. With my NAS being on continually I don't have to boot my laptop up if I want to watch a movie on my TV or play music files on my Network media player. I can also access music that's on my NAS through my TV which plays through my HiFi system. All in all it's very convenient and works well. You can use a NAS as your local cloud storage.

[Simon]

You don't have to buy 2 x 3 tb drives as one drive is an automatic backup of the other

You've lost me there.  One drive would be for backups, but what do you mean by the above?  Do you mean they automatically clone each other?

[colirv]

Could I, for example, have iTunes on the NAS, and be able to access it via any device on my home network?

The drive I linked to lists functioning as an iTunes server amongst its features. I imagine most NAS drives will be the same.

[pctech]

If you want local storage Simon I've been using one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=my+cloud&sprefix=Mycloud%2Caps%2C176

Does have the benefit of being remotely accessible if you want it to be.

[john]

You've lost me there.  One drive would be for backups, but what do you mean by the above?  Do you mean they automatically clone each other?

Yes, you can configure them using Synology's default RAID array which is essentially RAID 1 where the second disk is a backup of the other.

There is a review of it here : http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/storage/nas-drives/52780/synology-diskstation-ds213j-review and it mentions this near the end.

[Simon]

The drive I linked to lists functioning as an iTunes server amongst its features. I imagine most NAS drives will be the same.

Thanks Colin.

If you want local storage Simon I've been using one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=my+cloud&sprefix=Mycloud%2Caps%2C176

Does have the benefit of being remotely accessible if you want it to be.

Thanks Mitch, I have looked at those but the word 'cloud' put me off, and the reviews aren't all great for them.

Yes, you can configure them using Synology's default RAID array which is essentially RAID 1 where the second disk is a backup of the other.

There is a review of it here : http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/storage/nas-drives/52780/synology-diskstation-ds213j-review and it mentions this near the end.

Thanks John.  RAID is another mystery to me, but I'll take a look.

[john]

This article may explain RAID arrays in sufficient detail:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2849289/supercharge-your-pcs-storage-with-a-raid-setup-everything-you-need-to-know.html

[Simon]

Right, so, if I understand it correctly, with a RAID set up, two 3Tb hard drives will only actually offer 3Tb of data storage in total?  That's kind of an expensive way to defeat the object of creating more storage space.  I have 3Tb now, if I combine the capacities of my existing drives, so unless I also carried on using the old drives as well, I wouldn't be gaining anything with the Synology RAID system.  I guess I could use the NAS purely as a backup, which would free up one of my other drives, but again, it seems expensive as an option to achieve that.

What I want is at least 2Tb of space for music, another 2Tb to back that up, plus at least another 2Tb for everything else, including backups.  That would then free up the computer drives for the 'everyday' stuff.   

[john]

You are correct that 2 x 3tb drives in a RAID 1 array will only give you 3tb of storage (although with backup) however if you are prepared to risk not having backup or wish to arrange your own backups I think you can configure the drives in a RAID 0 array which I understand writes the data across both drives and uses the full 6tb but without the backup facility.

[Glenn]

It all depends on what raid level you want to use, Raid 0 will write data across all the disks fitted, the dis advantage is no backup, Raid 1 with give you a backup, Raid 5 can be configured to provide an redundancy but at the cost of some space, but if one drive fails, the remaining drives have the data to rebuild the replacement.

https://www.synology.com/en-us/dsm/5.2/features

I use a HP Microserver running XPenology, a reverse engineered version of Synology with the data stripped (Raid 0) across 3 drives.

[colirv]

Why not do what I did and get two separate single disk stations, mapped to two different drive letters. If you don't fancy the cheaper WD ones, go for something pricier. Then you can duplicate/backup as much or as little as you like.

[Simon]

Why not do what I did and get two separate single disk stations, mapped to two different drive letters. If you don't fancy the cheaper WD ones, go for something pricier. Then you can duplicate/backup as much or as little as you like.

It's certainly a consideration.  The one issue being that they take up quite a bit of space. 

[colirv]

Not much more than one double station. Presumably they'll be by the router, wherever that is - the hall table in our house!

[Simon]

What about this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N2N3A4K/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_cvK0vbW4NQMFB

[john]

Not much more than one double station. Presumably they'll be by the router, wherever that is - the hall table in our house!

My router and NAS are on a shelf under the hall table too, is this the norm do you think? 

[colirv]

What about this?

Looks impressive! I'd never buy from Amazon, though - hate their business practices.

[colirv]

My router and NAS are on a shelf under the hall table too, is this the norm do you think? 

Wouldn't be surprised!

[Simon]

This one is a little cheaper:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N2N3A4K/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_cvK0vbW4NQMFB

Given that these are empty drive bays, I'm not quite sure why there is such a price difference between one which can take up to 12Tb and one which can take up to 20Tb, as surely they essentially do the same thing, and it's the actual drive capacities one is paying for?

[john]

That appears to be the same one as your previous link Simon

[stevenrw]

If I understand you correctly Simon, you are happy with the machine you have at the moment, its running well, its just a storage issue.
I may be missing something here but why are you adding external caddies instead of just putting one (or more) bigger drives in your existing box? WD Green drives will also save you a bit on energy costs.
I use an external caddy for backups and keep it at another location (just in case of fire/burglary etc - perish the thought)
If a lot of your data is music you really will not even notice a hit in speed if your mobo doesn't have SATA 3, using a SATA3 drive on a SATA 2 mobo will give you plenty enough speed, I do it all the time.
I think considering RAID options is just over complicating things.

[Simon]

That appears to be the same one as your previous link Simon

Oh right, but you can choose the sizes, which are different prices.

[Simon]

If I understand you correctly Simon, you are happy with the machine you have at the moment, its running well, its just a storage issue.
I may be missing something here but why are you adding external caddies instead of just putting one (or more) bigger drives in your existing box? WD Green drives will also save you a bit on energy costs.
I use an external caddy for backups and keep it at another location (just in case of fire/burglary etc - perish the thought)
If a lot of your data is music you really will not even notice a hit in speed if your mobo doesn't have SATA 3, using a SATA3 drive on a SATA 2 mobo will give you plenty enough speed, I do it all the time.
I think considering RAID options is just over complicating things.

That indeed would be an easier option, Steven.  I need to take the case off my PC and check to see if I have a spare SATA connector, because when I built the machine back in about 2007, I managed to break one or two connectors while installing the current hard drives, as they were so fiddly to get to.  If I do have a working spare SATA connector, would there be any issues as to drive capacity and compatibility with the motherboard?

[Glenn]

How do you get 20Tb in there?

Compatible with 3,5" SATA I/II/III-HDD and 2,5" SATA HDD/SSD up to 4 TB

so it can take 4 x 4Tb drives, now I only got an O'level in maths but that is 16Tb.

[Simon]

It says it can take 4 x 5Tb drives, Glenn. 

[stevenrw]

I see three options here Simon.
Assuming worst case scenario, that you do not have further working SATA ports on your board, as you are only using the drives as data storage not system drive you could gain a couple more sata ports with a PCIe sata expansion card.
You could replace the drives already in there with larger capacity and look at putting the smaller drives in one of these.http://www.amazon.co.uk/ORICO-Tool-free-Drive-Enclosure/dp/B00JX7XTOK. I use one of these and it works well, however I do think that for smaller files the USB 3.0 facility is not as fast as eSATA. I believe they also do a 3 bay version but the price rises sharply.
3rd Option would be, instead of buying a new rig, you might consider a preassembled bundle. Aria do a few options and I've gone down this route a couple of times. http://www.aria.co.uk/Systems/Bundles/Intel+Value+Next+Day+Bundles+/. You'll get all  the sata ports you need plus latest technology and can reuse any other stuff like graphics card, other expansion cards etc you want from your old rig.
A call to their sales team will clarify if its good for the larger size drives (and who knows, maybe they will do you a deal if you get everything from them?) The bundles are also customisable, so you can get a price for extra RAM for example.
The downside of this route is that you will need to reinstall Windows 7 plus any software. Its a bit of a faff but you'll end up with a nice clean new install ready for W10 if you go that route, but even if you don't a clean install of Windows after a few years is no bad thing.

[Simon]

Thanks Steven, that's food for thought.  As soon as I get a moment, I'll whip the lid off the current PC and see what's what.  A simple additional internal drive would certainly be the most straightforward move.

[Simon]

The motherboard is an Abit IP35.  I've had a quick look on Google and can't see any limitations on drive sizes. 

[Simon]

Just to update this, I've decided on the easy route, as I've got too much other stuff going on at the moment to be fiddling about too much.  I've ordered these two items:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006TTA75Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006L0XE7O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The hard drive will act as a backup drive for everything, and I can then use the space on the existing smaller backup drive(s) to spread stuff out a bit, and can have one as a dedicated music drive.  The only thing I'm a little wary of is having a single backup of everything all on one drive, but I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

What I'm looking for now is a decent backup program.  I currently have Acronis True Image, but it takes several hours to do a weekly backup, and that's just documents, without several hundred Gb of music.  I thought it was supposed to do incremental backups, which I understood to be only files which had changed or are new since the last backup, but each backup file is about 150Gb, so I can't see that it's working like that.  If I was to backup all the music each week as well, it would take, at a guess, around 8-10 hours.  Is this normal? 

[Ray]

I ditched Acronis a while ago, Simon, I've been using the Home version of Macrium Reflect, they also do a free version with slightly less features, details of the various versions here:-http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx
I've found it to be fast it will backup 270GB of my photos in about 1 - 1.5 hours. I also do a daily image of my OS drive which is around 100GB takes around 18 minutes.
A full restore of the system disk takes about 10 minutes

[Simon]

Thanks Ray, that might be worth a try.  I'm just wondering if there's a setting in Acronis I've missed.  It isn't the most user friendly piece of software I've ever used.

[stevenrw]

I believe only the paid for version of Acronis is supposed to do incremental backups. If you have the free Western Digital edition you have to overwrite the backups and do it over completely. However, it does seem a long time even for that amount of music.
The hub you've purchased is USB3 but it requires a USB3 port on your machine to connect to. If your machine is as old as you say, then you'll only have USB2 connections. Its backward compliant but you'll be limited by USB2 speeds anyway.Furthermore, I know from experience that with small files (like music tracks for example) USB3 really does not do what it says on the tin. Its faster than USB2, but not by a huge margin.
You would (have) been better served by a caddy with an eSATA connection, faster than USB3 by a sizeable margin when backing up music (again from experience), and you can get an eSATA bracket that just plugs into your mobo SATA port. I use something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Port-External-eSATA-to-Internal-SATA-PCI-PC-Extension-Bracket-Slot-Motherboard-/400952009119?hash=item5d5a9a219f
I've not used it but EaseUS ToDo backup is another option although the free version will give you headaches with nag screens.
TBH I don't use backup programs. They produce files that you can't read so you have to trust that they have backed up everything correctly. I took the pain of doing a full backup manually, just by physically copying the folders across. You then just need to come up with a system where you create a "pending" folder and back that up manually whenever it gets big enough for you to be uncomfortable.
I'd think carefully about a single backup however. Remember what I said about risk of breakins/fires etc. You have a very large collection of music and for the cost involved I'd be uncomfortable with that level of risk.
So if it was me, being ultra conservative (and I've been in the similar situation to you albeit with a bit less music) I'd get a second caddy, something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORICO-Aluminium-USB-3-0-eSATA-3-5-SATA-Hard-Drive-Case-Caddy-HDD-Enclosure-Dock-/252042788719?hash=item3aaeebbf6f and fill it with a WD Green drive sufficiently large to accommodate all your music perhaps, http://www.ebuyer.com/567310-wd-green-4tb-3-5-sata-iii-64mb-cache-hard-drive-wd40ezrxand just copy stuff to it, then stash it somewhere off site, like a friends house, at work, or anywhere secure really.
THEN you are safe. Sounds like a lot but music is a very important medium for you, as it is to me so you really (I mean really) don't want to jepardise it for that sake of a few quid.

[Simon]

Thanks Steven.  The problem is, I checked inside my machine this morning, and I don't think I have a spare working SATA port, as I managed to break some of them when building the PC.  I can't think of a poorer design than having to try to get a connector over 4 extremely thin and delicate pins without bending or breaking them, when they are stuck behind already installed drives, making the workspace very constricted.  In hindsight, of course, I would have done it differently, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

I think, in the long run, I'm going to have to replace this machine within the next year or two, so I've just opted for the easiest 'plug and play' solution for the time being.  In reality, I may have over-estimated the amount of music I have, as much of it is duplicated, but it's at least 150Gb when I add up all the various folders.

I do see what you're saying about a single backup.  I do actually have a separate unattached drive which also has backups of my music and other essential documents, but as it's unattached, it's easy to forget to update it regularly - perhaps a discipline I should enforce upon myself more strictly. 

[stevenrw]

Aria have some good value machines as well as bundles. http://www.aria.co.uk/Systems/ and here
http://www.aria.co.uk/Systems/Home+and+Office/Next+Day+Systems/
Good luck!
BTW what do you use as a soundcard to listen to all this music? Do you use speakers or headphones?

[Simon]

I usually have what I want to listen to on my phone or an iPod, and listen to it either in the car, or at home through the hi-fi via a Bluetooth receiver.  I know I'm not getting the ultimate in sound quality that way, but it's perfectly listenable to.  I have most music stored on the PC in FLAC or AIFF formats, hence the size, then I convert them via iTunes to smaller AAC files for transfer to phone and / or iPod.  This is where a lot of duplicates arise as the iTunes folder itself is about 35Gb.  The main music folder is 94Gb, then I have other music folders for Amazon downloads, etc, so it soon mounts up.  Once I've got this new drive, and more capacity to work with, I can organise things a bit better. 

[colirv]

I revised our backup system a couple of years ago. I decided not to back up the OS, simply to back up data and program files. I use Genie Timeline Home to backup to an NAS and a Livedrive account for online backup. Everything's taken care of automatically every half hour or so and I can relax!

[stevenrw]

http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/   Just a little temptation for you...

[Simon]

 

[stevenrw]

Ray - regarding Macrium Reflect Free. I have some questions you may be able to answer:
For making an ISO copy to restore Windows - is the Macrium Free product significantly better than the utility built in to Windows7/8/8.1?
I have several machines all running different versions of Windows (eg W7 (32 and 64bit) and a laptop with W8.1). When creating ISO images to backup the OS's on an external drive do I have to create each image on a separate partition on the external drive or can they just be in separate folders?
Do I assume each separate OS will need its own boot CD or will one do all, since it will just prompt you for the folder (or partition?) that you need to restore from.

[Ray]

Ray - regarding Macrium Reflect Free. I have some questions you may be able to answer:
For making an ISO copy to restore Windows - is the Macrium Free product significantly better than the utility built in to Windows7/8/8.1?
I have several machines all running different versions of Windows (eg W7 (32 and 64bit) and a laptop with W8.1). When creating ISO images to backup the OS's on an external drive do I have to create each image on a separate partition on the external drive or can they just be in separate folders?
Do I assume each separate OS will need its own boot CD or will one do all, since it will just prompt you for the folder (or partition?) that you need to restore from.

Yes I would say it is better than the built in Windows utility I have always found the built in system unreliable whenever I've used it and if your system disk fails your only option is to do a fresh install on the replacement HD and then reinstall all your applications. Whereas with Macrium you just need to boot from the recovery disk and restore to the new disk and you are make to a fully working system with everything installed.
Yes it would be best to create a different recovery disk for each version of Windows to ensure the right drivers etc. are on the recovery disk.
You only need to create a separate folder on your external disk for each operating system, in the recovery environment you would then just navigate to the folder for the Pc you are recovering and select the image you want to use.
Macrium also gives you the ability to add a recovery option to the Windows boot menu so that if you can't get Windows to start for any reason you can recovery your system without the need for a boot disk.

[stevenrw]

Thanks for the prompt reply Ray, much appreciated. Gonna investigate the free version for sure.

[Ray]