0845 0870 call no longer inclusive?

[davej99]

I was looking at moving phone over to IDNET with Anytime inclusive calls. With the BT Anytime package 0870 and 0845 calls are free and still seem to be. I was surprised to learn this is no longer the case with IDNET. Perhaps BT is not or no longer IDNET's call carrier The web site is confusing but IDNET Sales say the call set up charge is inclusive but the additional charge levied by the party called is no longer inclusive. Given the number of times I call these numbers it makes moving away from BT more expensive. Would appreciate any guidance because I really have a problem with these charges.

[Simon]

I wasn't aware of this, and I wish they would communicate changes better to customers, who can't be expected to check the T&Cs every five minutes.  From the website:

084, 087, 09 and 118 Numbers

The regulator Ofcom has changed the way you're charged for these numbers. The changes are designed to make the cost of calls clearer, and they're being shared through a campaign called UK Calling.

The cost of calling any of these numbers is split into two parts:

The access charge - this is what we charge you, per minute, for connecting the call. This will be free for anyone on one of our current call packages, our access charge for line only and legacy call packages (sold prior to October 2012) will be 5p ex.vat (6p inc. vat) per minute. The per minute access charge will apply even if the service charge is priced per call.

The service charge - this is the rest of the call charge. The organisation you're calling decides the service charge, and must communicate it. For example, if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you're calling might say "Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company's access charge".

By adding together the access charge and the service charge, you'll know exactly what the call will cost you.
0845 & 0870 numbers will no longer be provided free within packages. Companies you already have a contract with are legally obliged to use a 01/02/03 number rather than 0845/0870 or other higher rate numbers. (Government cuts off costly calls)

http://www.idnet.net/voice_products/specialcalls.php

[Simon]

So, I guess the answer is to use 03, or geographic numbers.

www.saynoto0870.com can be useful. 

[Tacitus]

My reading of that, is that it will make no difference to anyone currently on one of the phone packages.  Or do they get let off the access charge but have to pay whatever the other end charge them?

Usual badly thought through Ofcom b.......s

I did look at Vonage, but for a domestic user that's even more expensive

[Edit]  One other point is that if I ring iDNet to report a fault, do I get charged a premium rate on 0800 331 7000  Best to use one of the other numbers although I'm not sure they transfer out of hours.

[davej99]

Thanks Simon.

Do not see how Ofcom has caused IDNET to charge the service portion of 0845/0870 if BT can keep it inclusive.

Ofcom has capped the charges and banned vital public services and post-contract customer service lines  from using them. (Financial services from October). It is still lawful for organisations to use them for sales, technical or information lines and there is often no alternative. That is why I have used BT Anytime which included them any way.

Some companies like Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk, Virgin and it now seems IDNET exclude all or part of the charge. Disappointed with IDNET if they have just joined the pack. I guess it means I will have to move my broadband to BT who are offering incentives to keep my line with them.

[Simon]

One other point is that if I ring iDNet to report a fault, do I get charged a premium rate on 0800 331 7000  Best to use one of the other numbers although I'm not sure they transfer out of hours.

Calls to numbers starting 0800 and 0808 are free of charge, according to the website.

My reading of that, is that it will make no difference to anyone currently on one of the phone packages.  Or do they get let off the access charge but have to pay whatever the other end charge them?

My reading is that for 0845, etc, you'll be charged 5p per minute access fee, plus whatever the company decides to charge you for the call.

http://www.idnet.net/voice_products/callrates_packages.php

I can't see how this makes it simpler for customers to work out call costs, as it largely depends on how long the companies deliberately keep you queueing for in the first place.  That's what OFCOM should be clamping down on. 

[Simon]

Thanks Simon.

Do not see how Ofcom has caused IDNET to charge the service portion of 0845/0870 if BT can keep it inclusive.

I can't comment on BT packages as I'm not on one, but I'm sure they'll be charging you for the services somehow - perhaps just not as transparently as other providers?   

[davej99]

I can't comment on BT packages as I'm not on one, but I'm sure they'll be charging you for the services somehow - perhaps just not as transparently as other providers?

Really disillusioned with IDNET now they have joined Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk, Virgin and others in making these less than obvious charges. Good will lost for a few quid. With me it's a point of principle. I will not succumb to the 084/087/09/118 industry rip off even for a penny.

There are 5.8% BT  line rental increases in the pipe with free 0870 0845. Now I have got to work out what IDNET charges  for 084/087 will cost and whether line rental will be frozen. Why should I bother when I can move broadband to BT and save a lot?

Very disappointing. Very inconvenient.

[Tacitus]

Really disillusioned with IDNET now they have joined Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk, Virgin and others in making these less than obvious charges.

Don't think they've got much choice since it's an Ofcom ruling.  Where they have slipped up badly is in not being sufficiently transparent and drawing current customers attention to the changes.  Simply posting it on their website is inadequate IMHO, as it would have been easy to paste it into a bulk email to all customers.

In the end though I don't think it will make a great deal of difference to me.

As for:

Why should I bother when I can move broadband to BT and save a lot?

Because when things go wrong as they did with me over the weekend you get someone on the phone who knows their stuff, gives good advice and who then follows it up a day or two later to ensure the problem has been solved. 

[davej99]

Don't think they've [IDNET] got much choice since it's an Ofcom ruling. 

Ofcom have ruled that charges for 0845/0870 numbers must be divided into two parts as opposed to a single call charge and they have set maximum charges. They have not ruled that part of that charge cannot be included in inclusive call packages.

Ofcom says, "For numbers starting 084, 087, 09 and 118, the new system makes the cost of calls clearer than at present. The actual cost of each call is determined by the level of the access charge set by your phone company, plus the service charge. There may be some changes to the cost of individual calls, as telephone companies adapt to the new charging system."

So it is a matter for phone companies how they charge calls for inclusive packages, not Ofcom. BT don't charge, IDNET do. Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk and Virgin historically charge. So far as I can see it is a commercial decision not Ofcom's.

My commercial decision is not to migrate phone to IDNET and review broadband.

[Tacitus]

In your earlier post you say:

IDNET Sales say the call set up charge is inclusive but the additional charge levied by the party called is no longer inclusive.

So it appears the call setup charge which is controlled by iDNet is included, but the addtional charge isn't.  Since the additional charge appears to be entirely outside iDNet's control, it's unreasonable to expect them to absorb it.

So it is a matter for phone companies how they charge calls for inclusive packages, not Ofcom. BT don't charge, IDNET do. Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk and Virgin historically charge. So far as I can see it is a commercial decision not Ofcom's.

BT are probably thinking of group profit rather than simply BT retail.   

My commercial decision is not to migrate phone to IDNET and review broadband.

Entirely up to you of course.  I still think iDNet were remiss in not contacting existing users to make the position clear.  But TBH, whilst their support is generally good to excellent, ongoing communication with customers has never really been their strong point.   As I said earlier a simple copy/paste into a bulk email with a few words of explanation would have been sufficient.  An alternative would have been a msg in the customer portal.

[nowster]

BT can charge itself what it likes. It all comes out of the same pot of revenue. The smaller players don't have that luxury.

[davej99]

BT can charge itself what it likes. It all comes out of the same pot of revenue. The smaller players don't have that luxury.

BT wholesale has to trade with BT Retail, IDNET and other resellers on the same terms. However BT Retail can absorb increases if it wishes.

So it appears the call setup charge which is controlled by iDNet is included, but the additional charge isn't.  Since the additional charge appears to be entirely outside iDNet's control, it's unreasonable to expect them to absorb it.

IDNET made this point, but I am not sure I understand it. So far as I can tell Ofcom have not increased the total 0845/0870 charge. Instead of a single call charge the consumer now get two parts. IDNET is a reseller so maybe they are getting hit with a bigger total wholesale charge, which they cannot absorb. The anomaly is that non-inclusive 0845/0870 calls seem unchanged but "inclusive" ones are more.

IDNETs inclusive call package is very competitive so it might have been better to increase it a little and save the inconvenience of using to saynoto0870 to avoid big charges. All I know is having waited for BT advance rental expiry for 10 months and battled to get out of a CLID related contract, I now have to pay more than I expected to move voice to IDNET. After 8 1/2 exemplary years with IDNET, I am very disappointed that they are applying these charges like Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk and Virgin.

[nowster]

BT wholesale has to trade with BT Retail, IDNET and other resellers on the same terms. However BT Retail can absorb increases if it wishes.

Yes, but BT plc as a whole doesn't lose out if BT Retail makes a loss because it absorbs an extra cost that BT Wholesale charges it.

BT's current telecoms infrastructure should really be a separate, not-for-profit, company, whose shareholders should be all the individual "customers" (the retail companies), with no more than one share per "customer". This is how most internet exchange points work.

[Tacitus]

BT's current telecoms infrastructure should really be a separate, not-for-profit, company, whose shareholders should be all the individual "customers" (the retail companies), with no more than one share per "customer". This is how most internet exchange points work.

I agree, but somebody will be along soon to point out what a disaster the nationalised BT was etc, etc. 

A week or two ago I read an interview with the former head of (I think) the BT Research place at Martlesham(?), who was telling of the research they did on fibre optics during the 60s/70s.  They'd developed some world leading expertise and together with some private companies a couple of factories had been set up to bulk manufacture fibre cabling.  They proposed to Maggie that they would completely replace the copper infrastructure provided they could run TV across the fibre, so the whole thing would stack up financially.  IOW they had the sense to see the network was the platform on which competition would take place in the provision of services.

In her infinite wisdom St Margaret decided they should be privatised and competition would come from the (US owned) cable companies.  As a result the fibre factories were shut down and the expertise and talent shipped abroad. 

Unfortunately I can't find the link, but it was clearly another triumph for UK plc.

[Clive]

I'm on a calls package and can confirm that 0845 calls are now chargeable again.  Slightly annoying because they don't seem to have informed me.  I've only used 0845 once this week and it only cost 8p + VAT but when you are a pensioner struggling to make ends meet....   I guess it's back to Say No to 0870.   

[Simon]

    The access charge - this is what we charge you, per minute, for connecting the call. This will be free for anyone on one of our current call packages, our access charge for line only and legacy call packages (sold prior to October 2012) will be 5p ex.vat (6p inc. vat) per minute. The per minute access charge will apply even if the service charge is priced per call.
   
    The service charge - this is the rest of the call charge. The organisation you're calling decides the service charge, and must communicate it. For example, if the service charge was 20p per minute, the organisation you're calling might say "Calls cost 20p per minute, plus your phone company's access charge".

So, to correct my earlier understanding, it seems the access charge IS free, but only if you're on one of the new call packages.

I have made several 0845 calls recently, and I don't recall ever being told how much the charge rate is, only that they've changed to an 0345 number which is cheaper.

[davej99]

BT's current telecoms infrastructure should really be a separate, not-for-profit, company...

I agree with your general sentiment. BT should be broken up. The break-up of US AT&T in the 1980's and the formation of the independent Baby Bell local loop providers was generally reckoned to be a success because it ended a virtual monopoly and created competition among national carriers. Local service prices rose and national charges fell. I was there at the time, and whilst things did not turn out as planned they got a whole lot better.

Compared with countries like Korea the UK infrastructure is laughable beyond measure. Government and regulation seem powerless to act against BT and should hang their heads in shame. Nationalisation is not the answer but break up is a stick that should be taken out. The donkey is getting fat and idle from too many carrots

[davej99]

According to MoneySavingExpert, many people will end up paying more:

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/phones/2015/06/0845-and-0870-number-price-hike-warning-as-ofcom-changes-rules-on-call-pricing

Have not posted on the forum for ages. It has been good chatting to you all again. Thanks, everyone, for responding to my post. At least we have highlighted the need to be up to date on the matter of non-geographic call charges. Clearly I was not and I do not think there has been much publicity. My instinct is that not all customers will be winners, especially when you need to call a non-geo tech support line using an inclusive calls tariff.

Thanks and cheers, Dave.

[Tacitus]

So, to correct my earlier understanding, it seems the access charge IS free, but only if you're on one of the new call packages.

That was my understanding - by 'new' call package I assume you mean one of the current ones. 

I would have thought the access charge is determined by BT Wholesale and is therefore a (more or less) predictable monthly cost to iDNet.  The other part of the call cost is determined by the service provider - 118, weather line, whatever - and is entirely outside iDNet's control.  Also it will vary by provider and again the total monthly cost is dependent on what services the individual user uses.  I think it would be unreasonable to expect iDNet to absorb that element as well as the access charge.

[mervl]

I wasn't aware of this, and I wish they would communicate changes better to customers, who can't be expected to check the T&Cs every five minutes.  From the website:

http://www.idnet.net/voice_products/specialcalls.php

I did get a notification e-mail about this a few months back. Have you all kept IdNet up to date with your current e-mail address?

[Simon]

Well, they should know mine, and I don't recall receiving anything. 

[Clive]

I've used the same e-mail address for 20 years or since Win 95 first appeared.   

[Gary]

I was told about this, and its been mentioned on Thinkbroadband and various other sites as well. The fact is there are alternative numbers to use instead of 0845 and 0870 numbers, like Simon has mentioned. I get free 0800 on EE and now no longer use my landline for calls at all, and have found 0345 etc or geographic numbers which are all in my call plan for all the 0845/0870 ones and so don't get charged. Its not hard work, and the info was out there well before July.

[MisterW]

Really disillusioned with IDNET now they have joined Sky, Plusnet, Talk Talk, Virgin and others in making these less than obvious charges.

0845 & 0870 calls are STILL included in PlusNet packages.

[nowster]

0845 & 0870 calls are STILL included in PlusNet packages.

PlusNet is BT with a Yorkshire accent.

[Gary]

0845 & 0870 calls are STILL included in PlusNet packages.

Companies have to provide a alternative number now, under new regulations. Going http://www.saynoto0870.com/ will get you pretty much all of them.

"Dialling a number that starts 0870, 0845, 0871 or 0844 should ring alarm bells. They generally cost far more than a call to a normal 01, 02 or 03 number – but you can slash the cost to zero.

Thanks to regulations introduced in 2014, these expensive numbers are less common than they used to be, yet you may still find them in certain cases – such as a bank helpline or a sales line for an energy company or travel firm. Not only do you have to pay, the company you're speaking to may profit from the call – even if you're calling to complain"

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/0870-say-no

[Tacitus]

I did get a notification e-mail about this a few months back. Have you all kept IdNet up to date with your current e-mail address?

I've just done a search of my emails over the last 12 months and can't find anything about the revised charges - iDNet do have my address.

[nowster]

Customer service lines nowadays are forbidden to use numbers that charge more than a normal call to a landline (in all respects).

[mervl]

I've just done a search of my emails over the last 12 months and can't find anything about the revised charges - iDNet do have my address.

Well, this is a copy of what I received:

Sent 10th June 2015 0004 from IDNet Phone [support@idnet.com]:
Price Change Notification For 08/09/118 Numbers
From 1 July 2015, the regulator Ofcom is changing the way you're charged for numbers starting 084,087,09 & 118 (including 0845/0870). The changes are designed to make the cost of calls clearer, and they're being shared through a campaign called UK Calling. Details of how IDNet are implementing these changes can be found on our Special Services page [linked in the e-mail].
If you wish to discuss any matter concerning this email or your phone service please contact us at support@idnet.net or on 0800 331 7000
Kind regards,
IDNet

For some reason though MS do put IDNet e-mails into my junk folder! 

[sparky]

Well, I have an idnet email address and have had since I joined idnet years ago.

I never received such an email, but I now know why my phone bill this month was more than my inclusive package, it would appear that one of us dialed an 0845 number.



Thought they were included when I changed my package. This sucks.

[Gary]

Thought they were included when I changed my package. This sucks.

How does it exactly suck, you just need to find the alternative numbers and use them from now on, which are still free, it means doing 5 mins of legwork online, hardly a disaster 

[davej99]

How does it exactly suck, you just need to find the alternative numbers and use them from now on, which are still free, it means doing 5 mins of legwork online, hardly a disaster 

That is a useful workaround. However, it requires everyone using the house phone to go on-line and find alternative numbers if they are not provided on the stationary. That is not so easy for some elderly and for busy mums and teenagers, which is why I have always bought voice from fixed line carriers that include 0870 and 0845 numbers in their inclusive packages, and why I have not moved voice over to IDNET, much as I would like to. Some tech support geographic alternative numbers are very well hidden and frequently changed to prevent use. But it is a personal choice.

[nowster]

Some tech support geographic alternative numbers are very well hidden and frequently changed to prevent use. But it is a personal choice.

This is now illegal. After-sales support has to be on a non-premium number. 08xx numbers (except 0800 and 0808) are effectively premium rate numbers now for the purposes of that legislation.

[mervl]

Any one tried the Android app WeQ4U? I've had it on the mobile for several months but have never yet found an excuse to ring an 08xx number. The say no to 0870 app too, acts an an aide memoire, but is more basic.

As with so much it's OK making regulations on everything but how are they enforced? Your phone service provider is normally the "innocent" victim bill payer as much as the end consumer. The regulator will make you amend your stationery . . . yeah, right. Or give you a fine, yeah wait for the bill then (and the default notice and the representations and the appeal the case law and and so on ad infinitum . . . ). I'm afraid we all think the law is an ass, and treat it accordingly.