Packet Loss/Low Throughput

[zappaDPJ]

I've recently moved house and moved from one rotten copper pair to another. Engineers have looked at the line and declared it fit for purpose even though it drops out on a very regular basis.



Aside from the drop outs, high latency and packet loss, I don't have enough throughput to stream content which is now the only real reason we have broadband apart from for general browsing. I'm trying to determine if that's due to the problems with my line or if it's more general. Speed tests vary from 0.5 mb/s to around 15 mb/s but even when I get 15 mb/s we still get buffering or more usually, low bandwidth messages.



I'm considering getting a second line put in and taking an all you can eat service with Sky in the hope that the new line will fix the existing issues but in the short term I'd like to try and work out exactly where my problems is. So is it just me or is anyone else having issues? I should mention that I have seen a lot of packet loss in various IDNet BQMs but as nobody has complained I'm assuming it's been of little or no consequence?

[Adrian]

I'm getting lots of line drops today, but it is a tad wet n windy which may account for it.

[zappaDPJ]

Rain is certainly a factor in my case, a line drop is guaranteed within seconds of it starting to rain. Although it's hard to tell but there does seem to be a similar pattern of packet loss on your graph.

[jane]

A similar pattern here as well. I just checked in to see if anyone else was seeing the same.

[jane]

Same again today

[zappaDPJ]

Judging by the complaints I'm getting from the rest of the household here, it's pretty dire.



[EDIT] It's taken me the best part of 15 minutes just to retrieve that graph and post here so yeah, dreadful.

[jane]

It's not one of the business customers up to their shenanigans again is it? Didn't we have something similar a while back?
Upload speed is okay but download is down to just over 5 Mbps.

[zappaDPJ]

It's not one of the business customers up to their shenanigans again is it? Didn't we have something similar a while back?
Upload speed is okay but download is down to just over 5 Mbps.

I honestly don't know. IDNet have suggested various possibilities, including Apple updates and problems within the BT Network. At the moment I can't see any issues at all with BQMs set up by users with providers like Plusnet. On the other hand the packet loss is appearing on all the IDNet BQMs I can see.

[nowster]

It does seem only to be happening during office hours.

(Of course, not noticing it here on the end of the wet string in NW Wales as the sync speed is 3.1Mbps but the current IP profile speed is 1.75Mbps.)

[jane]

Maybe it will stop over Christmas then though that doesn't help people with kids on holiday now does it.
Maybe it's an office hours call-in centre for Santa Live updates. Or the staff are streaming him live.

[mervl]

Since the second week of December I've had the same sort of packet loss as Zap (but on a better line) on weekdays noon-6pm (sometimes starts from 10am). Browsing can be a bit sluggish and streaming buffers a bit. In Essex, though and Stepney Green PoP. No BTw local fault reported, so I'm putting it down to congestion, though it looks as though the local loop is OK from what the modem reports, but anywhere else at the cab/exchange, across the BTw network or IDNet's own network. Just have to wait, someone will get "a round tuit" eventually. It's regular so I work around it and just schedule a dog walk instead. At least he's happy.

[jane]

It certainly looks like an IDNet  phenomenon. I am in Cornwall on a usually good line 40/10 -speed is right back up in the evenings. During the day though I even have problems with Ancestry UK loading pages. Happy dog here too despite the weather.

[Gary]

I've had random speed drops and buffering during late afternoon 2-5 ish period same as before a few years back. This is on a usually great performing 80/20 line.

[jane]

Here?

We have traced the cause of this problem to a corporate customer who supplies video content to marketing kiosks installed at several large supermarket chains. The kiosks are connected by broadband lines, supplied by us, back to their content server. Whenever new content is 'published' on the server several hundred kioks all start to immediately download the new content, at the same time!

With thier consent we are going to rate-limit the content server so that the content is installed at a more measured pace.

Thanks Simon. Amscreen by any chance?

[Gary]

Here?

That was it. I cant see it being Apple updates etc, but this happens to all providers it seems, Plusnet went though a stage of slow traffic, Zen had a hiccup as well I saw on Think Broadband a while back, I think its the nature of the beast unless you are with say BT, or Sky etc who have huge network capacity to begin with. Also when 4K streaming takes off I'll have to move on as IDNet would become to expensive for the data that's needed for IPTV. Right now IDNet are pretty good really and I'm not using that much data at all, but internet data usage is changing and people will will need unlimited at lower cost than niche ISP's can provide, as they are not set up for massive consumer demand but cater more for business clients

[jane]

Sad but true Gary. I don't want to think of having to move yet but it may be inevitable.
Today has been abysmal. No web, no emails, not funny!

[jane]

Have only just been able to get back here. Am I the only one?

[Simon]

It's been fine for me here and everywhere else tonight, but I'm only on ADSL2+, not fibre.

[Wobbly]

Have only just been able to get back here. Am I the only one?

No you're not the only one, I had nothing or very low downspeed last night from getting in from work to about 11.30. When I did get chance to test, upload was normal. I'm in East Dorset.

[Ray]

No problem here in Leicestshire on Fibre.

[mervl]

Almost insignificant packet loss yesterday afternoon (23rd) 2-3pm, none so far today, Xmas Eve. Can only think whoever/whatever was causing the December afternoon packet loss issue for me has packed up early and gone off for the holidays. Hopefully they'll make the desired New Years resolution to make themselves less of a menace please.

[zappaDPJ]

No change here, continual disconnects, packet loss and low downstream.

[mervl]

Our old friend the slight packet loss (2-3%) and random speed loss/buffering has reappeared for its daily exercise from 2pm-5pm-ish from Monday 4th, after his Christmas break. Almost certainly a business user hammering the network I should think. Doesn't affect the use of my connection though except the occasional buffer/loss during streaming after lunch. I've got better things to do, though! 

[zappaDPJ]

I'm seeing the same.

I also have an update on my connection status. We now live by the sea in the middle of nowhere. On Christmas Eve the railway line started to collapse into the sea so we now live in the middle of nowhere not connected to anywhere. The other half has no choice but to work from home which will require an Internet connection that doesn't continually drop.

So, this morning just after 7.00am I got an unexpected call from an OpenReach engineer just as I was about to start a rather long drive up to London. I literally tossed a coin and told him I'd wait in. He arrived in the middle of a monsoon but did his job nevertheless and found a fault between the pole and my master socket. He spent nearly two hours conducting tests and I've finally got the fault recorded in OpenReach's system.

The next hurdle to overcome is the pole is on private property to which OpenReach have no access so now we know why my faulty line was never faulty enough to fix. I've got another engineer booked for Monday, I have no idea what he'll be able to do.

[jane]

Sounds like a cop out. They must have had access to the pole at some time surely.

Yes, our old friend is back but on a much smaller scale and at different times so possibly not the same thing as before. The last lot stopped suddenly just before Christmas so probably was business related.

Brian said this when I pointed IDNet to this thread:

"We had seen some packet loss on the links out to some BT Wholesale. We have installed new links on the network to add more capacity so we can send them more data as required, these links should be operational in January and prevent issues like this in future."

Still too early in January to tell.

[zappaDPJ]

Sounds like a cop out. They must have had access to the pole at some time surely.

It does seem odd. It's fenced off in the corner of a garden. The only direct access would be through the owner's house. The engineer said it could be reached from a cherry picker but they only have access to three and there's a long waiting list.

[jane]

Of course, I forgot, it's the height of the cherry picking season isn't it?    Like I said -cop out.

[Simon]

 

[Adrian]

I am sure BTO would have a way leave for the pole. They pay a notional rent to the land owner and have right of access when required.

[zappaDPJ]

I think the problem might be the only access is though the house. I'll have a word with the owner over the weekend if he's at home.

[zappaDPJ]

I've just found out via IDNet that the OpenReach engineer was unable to gain access to do the job so he buggered off without even knocking on my door. I have a meeting with my Member of Parliament on Thursday night, I intend to make full use of it

[mervl]

I've just found out via IDNet that the OpenReach engineer was unable to gain access to do the job so he buggered off without even knocking on my door. I have a meeting with my Member of Parliament on Thursday night, I intend to make full use of it

It's a sad reflection, but although I've so far resisted the temptation, I think increasingly the MP route is the only way to get things done. (I have a different case, not involving telecoms but a licensing authority, where I'm told after an 8 week wait, they can't even read a letter for at least another 9 weeks because they're "busy"). I can understand too, where MPs get their prejudiced view of the world from. They must have endless complaints. But they do make it difficult for us, for ever passing laws that conflict with each other, and never for one moment thinking of the practicalities. Human Rights was a bright idea, supported by academics since time immemorial, but it means no-one can "just get on with it", without forever protecting their back. The management will insist on it, even if no-one else does. Who, really, can blame them? Even if they got rid of it, they'd have to replace it with something else (and worse?). The judges would make sure of it. As ever, we always want these things when they suit us, and not when they don't.

[Gary]

Anyone having issues this morning, my speeds are awful  Download should be about 63Mbps

[Terryphi]

Yes. Terrible speed reduction here too. I hope it is temporary congestion from Windows Updates. However speed has been worryingly erratic for last few days.

[Gary]

Yes. Terrible speed reduction here too. I hope it is temporary congestion from Windows Updates. However speed has been worryingly erratic for last few days.

Windows updates should not bring a network to its knees in any way whatsoever as I see it. Also it always seems to be fibre that suffers 

[Ray]

Yes, my download speed is down from 49Mbps to 33Mbps at the moment, also seems to be a lot of packet loss starting just after 9:00am. 

[Adrian]

Mine is much the same. Speeds are reasonably good but erratic on TBB Speed Test. Browsing is a bit slow.

[Adrian]

Oh dear, 80% packet loss at

ae-2-6.ear1.Amsterdam1.Level3.net

Also, to Idnet
Host                                                                                                      Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
1.                                                                                                          0.0%    34    0.5   1.2   0.5  21.3   3.5
2.                                                                                                          0.0%    34    7.7   7.7   7.3   8.7   0.3
3.                                                                                                          0.0%    33    7.3   9.7   7.0  47.4   8.4
4.                                                                                                          0.0%    33    7.3   7.6   7.1  17.9   1.8
5. bruce.idnet.net                                                                                    6.2%    33    7.1   7.3   7.1   7.7   0.2

[colirv]

I've been getting 2Mbs instead of my normal 38Mbs for several days, and a couple of drop-outs,but haven't had a chance yet to do the BT speed tests IDNet ask for.

[zappaDPJ]

As previously mentioned, neither myself or my wife can get to work because the railway line here has collapsed into the sea. Today we've both had our first day from hell trying to work via the Internet from home. It seems the problems I already have are being compounded by the problems everyone else seems to being having. OpenReach have just rang to make another appointment for tomorrow. I also have a meeting with the local Member of Parliament

[zappaDPJ]

The engineer called spent around 15 minutes explaining why my line isn't 'fit for purpose' and why there's nothing much OpenReach can do about it.

The line between the telegraph pole and my master socket is between 40 and 60 years old. The outer sheathing has gone brittle and disintegrated. The telegraph pole is in a neighbour's garden to which OpenReach have no access. They won't climb the pole without testing it at ground level first. They have two hoists/cherry pickers of which one is out of service and the other is booked out indefinitely. According to the engineer the only way forward is for me to get a key to the neighbour's property which is not going to happen.

[Simon]

That's a bugger. 

[zappaDPJ]

It's ridiculous. I don't like being lied to and it's now clear that the original diagnosis of 'it's faulty but not faulty enough to warrant a repair' was a lie to cover for the fact that the engineers can't get access to the poll. I asked the engineer today why the cable was so thin compared to all the others. I'm trying to get a second line put in and I obviously don't want to use another pair on the same cable. I was hoping it's thin because there's only one pair but in fact it's because it has no sheathing which is why it barely works. And now I have no dial tone on the phone

[mervl]

Any fixed wireless in your area zappa? The best list I know is on ISPReview, though are you in the area of the Welsh government? Or there's satellite I suppose. Now you can report a voice fault, does that help? Maybe not if BT deem it beyond economic repair, which is a risk with all the utilities. None of them have an absolute obligation, but the voice fault obligation is much stronger than that for broadband only, which is still stuck at dial up speeds. Voice too is a different division within OR, even if the same engineers actually on the ground.

Lots of phone infrastructure is old or was shoddy work done from the 50s to the 70s, often done by developers (in my area they just threw the cables in the ground, no ducting, nor access and when they had too much - it was cheap then - just looped it around making it impossible to locate a fault, which relies on measurements). The best thing that happened here in the east was the 1987? hurricane, which blew over so many poles that BT had to replace nearly all of them in the countryside. The coverage stats ignore the state of the infrastructure, as usual lies, damned lies and statistics. No consolation but what utility does renew their local network - only gas where it's a safety requirement imposed by the regulator (and that's taking 34 years or something so a lot of mains could rupture in that time) or where new tech is rolled out as with FTTC, and that's where it's commercially viable since they can charge more for it, or there's a subsidy to be had? Out of sight, out of mind, as they say. OR engineers are as furious as you, I expect, but as always in this country the accountants rule the roost, and they see the customers merely as money-making machines.

[zappaDPJ]

I'm a long way from anywhere I'm afraid, including Wales, there's a hint of a WiFi signal from a distant neighbour and that's about it. I rarely use the phone for voice communication but there's a fault. We get intermittent, deafening static on the line.

Talking of infrastructure, there's been problems here with the drainage and gas pipes in an adjacent road which are currently being replaced. The work started on the 16th November and is due to finish 13th May. Five months for approximately 150 yards of pipework?

[Simon]

Are you starting to wonder why you moved there, Zap?   

[zappaDPJ]

The train track collapse has certainly made life difficult. Four days a week the other half has to leave home at 5.15am and doesn't get back until 8.15pm. If we can get a reliable Internet connection she can work from home. I'm currently working (and living) at a recording studio about 80 miles from home. My only real problem is having to take days off to wait in for OpenReach engineers who either don't turn up or turn up without the necessary equipment. I've passed the whole sorry story of to my MP tonight. Maybe he can get something done.

[nowster]

Crackling on the line will have frequencies that extend well into those that DSL uses. Definitely report a voice fault. BT have an obligation to provide a working voice service.

[syserr0r]

Back to the original issue, I'm seeing the same packet loss at the same time across all (5) of our FTTC lines on both IPv4 and IPv6.

It seems mostly to be business hours.

[Gary]

Back to the original issue, I'm seeing the same packet loss at the same time across all (5) of our FTTC lines on both IPv4 and IPv6.

It seems mostly to be business hours.

I was gaming yesterday and noticed no problems my end, but it does keep causing issues, I had a PS4 download of 250MB and it took 3 hours the other day when the packetloss seemed to go on all day. Tbh my useage right now is not huge but when Apple wanted to do a screen share, because my iMac has issues we could not even get that going, that's pretty Cr*p tbh.

[mervl]

The January packet loss doesn't seem to have affected the use of my connection. But this (Saturday) morning I noticed a couple of network (not local loop) 10-15m and 5-10m outages from 9.15am to 10.15am. I'm just wondering if this is the promised additional BTw capacity/connections at last being made? It's not usual (for me). I suppose BTw don't let anyone know, so advanced warning (or even to find out) is out of the question.

[Gary]

Hopefully my issues will stop soon as im being moved to Zen by IDNet for backhaul, not sure if thats at their end or via my main exchange which is Zen enabled as mine is a satellite of that one. Happening on the First of February so we will see 

[zappaDPJ]

I'm still seeing packet loss on the majority of IDNet BQMs, here's mine.



Just to draw a line I hope on my disconnection issues, I had notification that OpenReach had booked a hoist to try and fix my line today, the one day when I absolutely had to be in London so I cancelled their visit. Needless to say there was a knock on the door at 8.00am this morning plus a number of phone calls which I ignored. On my way out it was somewhat harder to ignore the two OpenReach vans plus hoist and the gaggle of engineers gathered close to the telegraph pole looking slightly perplexed. Long story short, I let them get on with it.

I did get both praised and chastised for my rather obvious D.I.Y. fix (Yes I know I'm a bad, bad man) on the now replaced drop cable which had actually proved to be around 90% successful. Anyway as you can see from the above BQM my latency has dropped. In addition my sync rate has gone up somewhat plus my actual throughput is now around 5 times what it has been. In addition the modem now takes a lot less than a minute to sync instead of the 5-30 minutes it was taking before.



The ultimate test will be when it rains which it hasn't done here for a while.

[Simon]

 

[Ray]

 

[Steve]

Well apart from the typical packet loss it looks like you've had a result.   

[mervl]

Just to draw a line I hope on my disconnection issues

Good. The English queue, as ever; but, once it gets bad enough, often good when they get a "round tuit". I don't think whatever initiative the politicians or management dream up next, or ever, it'll ever change. I never criticise anyone for a bit of self-help, though!

With the network "issues" my download speeds still veer about wildly, mostly during the working day, though uploads look more consistent. I can live with it.

[Gary]

Glad to see things are looking better your end Zap Typical packet loss today is making downloads so slow, roll on being put onto Zen by IDNet to see if it cures this. 

[Adrian]

I have been having dreadful web browsing issues last night and today, so bad in fact that I can barely even run a speed test on thinkbroadband or speedtest.net, and when I can, my speeds are all over the place. Pings look fine and  there is a tiny bit of packet loss on TBB. I have eliminated computer issues as both my iMac and Macbook give the same results, I have also done a hard reboot of my Billion AXL8800 router.

Anyone else having problems?

[Gary]

I have been having dreadful web browsing issues last night and today, so bad in fact that I can barely even run a speed test on thinkbroadband or speedtest.net, and when I can, my speeds are all over the place. Pings look fine and  there is a tiny bit of packet loss on TBB. I have eliminated computer issues as both my iMac and Macbook give the same results, I have also done a hard reboot of my Billion AXL8800 router.

Anyone else having problems?

Yep its like paying to be made to wade though treacle for fun 

[Adrian]

OK, it looks like I need to downgrade to carrier pigeons again. What's going on IDNet?

[lozcart]

I'm getting the packet loss every weekday but not at the weekend which makes me think it is a business user causing the problem.

[Gary]

I'm getting the packet loss every weekday but not at the weekend which makes me think it is a business user causing the problem.

yes it does look like that, IDNet are a business provider really with residential tacked on, so I guess business users take precedent, also the amount of bandwidth they can buy is limited due to cost I'm guessing, but I could be wrong.. No matter what this should not be happening though. 

[Gary]

Well IDNet transferred me over to Zens PoP rather than their BTw one and things are looking much better  Pages open faster I dont get the lag with BBC homepage etc and throughput is flying.

[zappaDPJ]

Well IDNet transferred me over to Zens PoP rather than their BTw one and things are looking much better  Pages open faster I dont get the lag with BBC homepage etc and throughput is flying.

I've had intermittent problems with various BBC websites recently, particularly getting streamed content to start. I thought it was something their end but maybe not

[Simon]

I have too, Zap.  It seems to take ages to load videos, and on my laptop, Shockwave Flash keeps timing out, but I'm not sure if the two events are connected.

[Clive]

I've also been having terrible problems with slow internet speeds and websites refusing to open.  When I run speedtests I'm getting pings of 483 ms and download speeds of 4Mb which is a joke.  But when I run the same speedtest five minutes later I'm getting a ping of 240 and download speed of 18Mb.  It's sheer torture.  I assumed it was my local exchange to blame.   

[Adrian]

My speeds are all over the place again tonight. I normally get a steady 65Mb/s +, but this is useless


My current BQM is


OK, I have had a few line drops probably due to the wind (outside, not inside!) but the packet loss is a regular occurrence these days.

Interesting, speedtest.net to a server about 15 miles away shows

[Gary]

I don't use Flash any more, and tbh I don't need it and did not install it on my new iMac. iPlayer has a beta HTML5 player which I use and I get my news from other sources. No speed loss tonight at all.

[Gary]

Things still seem on this morning too. The lag on BBC pages and with game playing has gone and other sites  use open much faster now than hanging as they did before.

[Adrian]

It's still very wet 'n windy here which is causing line drops, and probably contributing to packet loss. It's hard to tell what's going on when it's like this.

I have ditched flash, but I keep a copy of Chromium for the rare occasions I have to use flash.

[Gary]

I keep a copy of Chromium for the rare occasions I have to use flash.

I have not found a reason to yet, if asked for a BT flash performance test then tough sadly, as I wont have any flash on my computer, whether its built into a browser or not.

[Ray]

Well something must have changed the packet loss and low speeds seem to have disappeared this week!   

[Steve]

Well Gary's moved to Zen back haul , must have been his fault.

[zappaDPJ]

 

[Ray]

 

[Gary]

Well Gary's moved to Zen back haul , must have been his fault.

My 60GB a month must have really been pushing the limits. Saying that at least when it went down the other day IDNet didn't say one router caused my issue, unlike BT on Tuesday to hundreds of thousands of people...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/03/bt_blames_faulty_router_for_mass_internet_outage/

[Ray]

Has anyone else been seeing this during the late afternoon and evening up to midnight? started for me on the 25th Feb and seems to occur every day at around the same time.

[zappaDPJ]

I'm not seeing anything like that on my graph Ray.

[Adrian]

Nothing unusual here either.