(Still) thinking of buying a new PC

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 10:02:48

I've been considering buying a new PC for a while now, but it goes in phases. When my current machine is running well, all is fine and thoughts of replacing it are forgotten, but the occurrences of it failing to start from cold without a reboot or two are increasing, as is the time it needs to become functional after starting up. I also experience more 'freezes' than I would like, and occasionally get a (overheating?) warning 'siren' from the tower itself (not through the speakers), which always requires a reboot. Further to this, I struggle to retain space on my C drive, which quite frequently goes into the red, despite regular 'cleaning', and as the computer is now at least 7 or 8 years old, I'm guessing that the internal hard drives may be reaching the end of their working lives anyway.

So, I don't have the time, interest, or patience any more to build a new machine myself, which is what I have always previous done, so have been casually browsing for a new 'off-the-shelf' desktop (tower only), and came across this, following an ad in Computer Active magazine. I'd probably want to tweak the spec a little, with a second hard drive and perhaps a more powerful CPU, but other than that, does this look OK?

http://www.meshcomputers.com/Default.aspx?PAGE=PRODUCTCONFIGPAGE&USG=PRODUCT&ENT=PRODUCT&KEY=1351102

colirv · Jun 06, 2016, 10:34:50

I've no idea how that compares for vfm with the rest of the market, but if I was buying it I'd want to include the SuperSpeed USB 3.0 Internal Card Reader. And, if I didn't already have one, a 22" monitor!

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 10:41:52

Yes, the card reader would be one of the add-ons.

zappaDPJ · Jun 06, 2016, 11:33:05

I can't comment on Mesh as I've not had any dealings with them for years. The only thing that really stands out to me is the lack of an SSD for a boot drive which I would consider essential these days. The cost of the base unit looks about right to me.

Glenn · Jun 06, 2016, 12:40:22

Try spec'ing what you want on here and see what the price comes out at.

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/intel-computers/

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 12:49:46

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Jun 06, 2016, 11:33:05
I can't comment on Mesh as I've not had any dealings with them for years. The only thing that really stands out to me is the lack of an SSD for a boot drive which I would consider essential these days. The cost of the base unit looks about right to me.

I believe Mesh went through a troubled period, but they have since sorted themselves out.

What you said about an SSD goes to show how not well up I am on latest specs. What is the big advantage of SSD over a regular hard drive, and why are they so bloody expensive?

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 12:52:53

Quote from: Glenn on Jun 06, 2016, 12:40:22
Try spec'ing what you want on here and see what the price comes out at.

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/intel-computers/

Doesn't work on my phone, so will have to look later, but thanks.

zappaDPJ · Jun 06, 2016, 13:45:45

Quote from: Simon on Jun 06, 2016, 12:49:46
What you said about an SSD goes to show how not well up I am on latest specs. What is the big advantage of SSD over a regular hard drive, and why are they so bloody expensive?

The advantage is the same as buying a faster processor or higher spec graphics card or upgrading to fibre over ADSL. There's really little point in upgrading to a faster processor or a more powerful graphics card if your hard drive is using old technology. SSDs make everything you do on a PC run significantly faster. My PC cold boots in under 15 seconds and all the software that I use loads in less than 2 seconds.

I wouldn't say they are particularly expensive, it's just that conventional hard drives are reaching the end of their reign and they are now ridiculously cheap by comparison. A 256GB SSD should be more than enough to store your OS and primary applications. You can still use conventional drives for backup purposes or storing large amounts of data.

Clive · Jun 06, 2016, 13:51:19

I've bought two laptops from PC Specialist this year, both with good specs and I've been delighted with both. My only gripe is that they charge if you use a credit card. But there is a £15 discount code in Computer Active machine and it's CA297 if my memory serves me right. I bought the second machine for my grandson and his dad is very impressed with it.

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 14:22:54

I've tried the PC Specialist website, and the trouble is, I'm not up to speed on what's good and what isn't, so configuring a spec from scratch is quite a challenge. I'm soon finding myself well over my budget with only half of the components selected! At least with the Mesh one, what you see is what you get, and the only configuration is the add-ons.

Clive · Jun 06, 2016, 17:17:01

Do what I did. Make up a spec from the website and post it on here. Wait for everyone to fall about laughing then adjust it until the laughter stops. It worked very well for me!

Simon · Jun 06, 2016, 18:52:11

Glenn · Jun 07, 2016, 08:23:17

http://outlet.euro.dell.com/Online/InventorySearch.aspx?brandid=1&c=uk&cs=ukdfh1&l=en&s=dfh

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 10:03:07

This looks pretty good, but the VAT pushes it quite a bit over-budget (I didn't really want to spend much more than £500), and would 32Gb be big enough for the SSD? My current setup has 80Gb for the OS and programs, and that keeps getting full.

http://outlet.euro.dell.com/Online/SecondaryInventorySearch.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=dfh&cs=ukdfh1&key=dTpy%2bRZFSAZHm5VEh1fLaQ%3d%3d&puid=c80f075b

Steve · Jun 07, 2016, 10:12:50

I'm out of touch with PCs but some form of SSD drive would be a must for me, I would possibly look at hybrid drives as well. As Zap says the speed difference between HDD and SSD is astounding. Certainly I'd want OS and frequently used applications on SSD as a minimum but with the price of SSDs coming down I'm not sure of the future role of hybrid drives (Hybrid drives have an smallish SSD incorporated into a larger mechanical drive and are therefore cheaper than the equivalent larger SSD i.e..1TB)

zappaDPJ · Jun 07, 2016, 10:23:43

Quote from: Simon on Jun 07, 2016, 10:03:07
This looks pretty good, but the VAT pushes it quite a bit over-budget (I didn't really want to spend much more than £500), and would 32Gb be big enough for the SSD? My current setup has 80Gb for the OS and programs, and that keeps getting full.

http://outlet.euro.dell.com/Online/SecondaryInventorySearch.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=dfh&cs=ukdfh1&key=dTpy%2bRZFSAZHm5VEh1fLaQ%3d%3d&puid=c80f075b

The link doesn't seem to be working but regardless I don't recall seeing a 32GB SSD before. I think the smallest I've come across is 120GB and I've just been looking at the price of them, £25! Three years ago they were 5 times that price.

Glenn · Jun 07, 2016, 11:55:58

240 - 256Gb SSD's can be had for less than £60 now

http://www.ebuyer.com/712133-sandisk-plus-240gb-sataiii-2-5inch-ssd-sdssda-240g-g25?mkwid=s4QEt2UBG_dc&pcrid=51482419619&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CjwKEAjw4dm6BRCQhtzl6Z6N4i0SJADFPu1nZtyvTlfYWXP_HCMg_nKNBIeExLk0X0nlS-U3USu0iRoCVMnw_wcB

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 14:10:08

Not sure why the link isn't working, but from Glenn's link above, it's the XPS 8900:

XPS 8900
Processor: Intel® Core™ i7-6700 Processor (8MB Cache, up to 4.0GHz)
Windows 10 Home (64bit)
16GB (2x8GB) 2133MHz DDR4 Non-ECC
2 TB 3.5inch SATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
32 GB Solid State Drive
16X DVD +/- RW DRIVE
4 GB DDR3 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 745
460W Chassis
Dell Wireless-N 1801+ Bluetooth 4.0
Heatsink

Glenn · Jun 07, 2016, 15:04:11

It's a good spec but as said above add a larger SSD. Would you be doing anything graphics intensive FPS games etc, as the graphics card may struggle a little?

nowster · Jun 07, 2016, 16:08:14

Be aware that SSD lifetime may be less than the equivalent conventional hard drive, and they definitely do not make for good long term storage. SSDs may have drastically lowered data retention times if left unpowered for months.

As always, backups are advised.

Clive · Jun 07, 2016, 16:22:16

I understand that there is a big difference in SSD manufacturers with Samsung coming out by far the best. But 32Gb? Really Simon!!

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 16:29:48

TBH, I don't need it to power up in three seconds. Three minutes would be an improvement on my current machine at times! If that Dell is an otherwise good spec, I wonder if I could substitute the SSD for a larger conventional hard drive, in addition to the 2Tb one included?

Before I make the jump, I also need to make sure that some essential old software, such as Sony Soundforge 8.0, will run on Windows 10, so I will have to test it out on my laptop first, as I don't want to incur the costs of updating software on top of the cost of the new machine. It's not so much the money, but I really don't need anything all that special anymore, and other than it running slowly and freezing at times, my current Windows 7 machine actually does what I want it to do.

Glenn, I'm pretty sure the specified graphics card would be better than the 8 year old one I already have, and that seems too managed OK with everything I throw at it.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 16:32:47

Quote from: Clive on Jun 07, 2016, 16:22:16
I understand that there is a big difference in SSD manufacturers with Samsung coming out by far the best. But 32Gb? Really Simon!!

It does sound woefully inadequate. Compared to the rest of the specs, I wonder if that's a mistake?

Glenn · Jun 07, 2016, 16:55:56

Needs an OS installing but not a bad price http://www.freshtechsolutions.co.uk/intel-core-i5-6600-1tb-8gb-2133mhz-gtx-960-2gb-zalman-t4-computer-gaming-pc.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvtS6BRC8pcKn8OXIg_wBEiQAqtpizzK_GrujZYge4eosOkfmOf9JJV2U4jixZqKPFm79Xm4aAspb8P8HAQ

zappaDPJ · Jun 07, 2016, 17:14:28

Quote from: Simon on Jun 07, 2016, 16:29:48
TBH, I don't need it to power up in three seconds. Three minutes would be an improvement on my current machine at times!

To put things in perspective, you would probably be better off fixing the overheating issue in your current machine and swapping out the hard drive for an SSD assuming the motherboard can handle it. It really doesn't make sense to buy a new PC without an SSD. It's not just power up or loading applications that benefits, modern operating systems constantly access your hard drive which is the major bottleneck on PCs using old technology.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 19:55:29

Lots to think about. Nowster's comment about the possible unreliability of SSDs is a concern. That said, I could be unlucky with a conventional hard drive, as it's not unknown for them to fail after a relatively short time. I think I've been quite lucky that mine have lasted as long as they have.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 20:00:30

Just found some more info on the Dell - it's a combi HDD+SSD: 2TB 7.2k HDD + 32GB SSD cache. So, I'm not quite sure what that means, but presumably, the OS would still be on the HDD?

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 20:43:33

Quote from: Steve on Jun 07, 2016, 10:12:50
I'm out of touch with PCs but some form of SSD drive would be a must for me, I would possibly look at hybrid drives as well. As Zap says the speed difference between HDD and SSD is astounding. Certainly I'd want OS and frequently used applications on SSD as a minimum but with the price of SSDs coming down I'm not sure of the future role of hybrid drives (Hybrid drives have an smallish SSD incorporated into a larger mechanical drive and are therefore cheaper than the equivalent larger SSD i.e..1TB)

Sorry, Steve, I completely missed this. Yes, so it seems the Dell one is a hybrid drive.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 21:10:19

So, I've been looking around and can get one from CCL, with the configuration below, for £687 with Windows 10:

Intel Core i7 4790 4GHz turbo CPU
16GB DDR3 Memory
120GB Solid State Drive
2TB Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 730
DVD Drive
3 Year Collect & Return Warranty
300Mbps Built-in Wi-Fi

http://www.cclonline.com/pc/home-pcs/bravo-pro/#features-030101020002

Clive · Jun 07, 2016, 21:28:16

16 Gb of RAM is OTT Simon. Cut it back to 8 and you won't notice any difference.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 21:36:39

I could do, Clive, but it would only save £21. I do perform quite a bit of audio editing, and that's often when my current PC struggles, so I thought the extra might help with that.

Steve · Jun 07, 2016, 21:58:44

Memory is pretty cheap though, and depending on the motherboard configuration, if you can't add to it later without throwing the existing away , it maybe cheaper to get it to start with.

Regarding the two drives maybe worth a chat with the retailer as it would be good if some automatic control of file distribution between the two, existed, whether Windows 10 can see both as one logical drive and sort the files out for optimum performance I've no idea.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 22:07:01

Quote from: Steve on Jun 07, 2016, 21:58:44Regarding the two drives maybe worth a chat with the retailer as it would be good if some automatic control of file distribution between the two, existed, whether Windows 10 can see both as one logical drive and sort the files out for optimum performance I've no idea.

My immediate assumption would have been that the OS and programs would be on the SSD, and the HDD would simply be used for storage. That's how I would configure it myself, anyway.

Just a thought, can you backup data (ie an OS image) from a SSD drive to a conventional HDD?

Clive · Jun 07, 2016, 22:40:33

Yes, of course. The laptop I bought for my grandson had a 500Gb conventional HDD and a 125Gb SDD. I put everything on the SDD but my son transferred some stuff over to the normal HDD.

zappaDPJ · Jun 07, 2016, 23:58:43

Quote from: Simon on Jun 07, 2016, 19:55:29
Lots to think about. Nowster's comment about the possible unreliability of SSDs is a concern. That said, I could be unlucky with a conventional hard drive, as it's not unknown for them to fail after a relatively short time. I think I've been quite lucky that mine have lasted as long as they have.

It's hard to say with any authority how SSDs compare to HDs in terms of reliability because the manufactures keep that data to themselves. In theory SSDs should last longer because there are no moving parts. What I do know is that they are not known to suffer from write fatigue but when they do fail it's usually without warning. The best information you can get is from data centres and their information seems to indicate a similar failure rate to HDs but that will improve as the technology matures. I'm now replacing my original SSDs with new ones, I think I have around 16 in total and I've only had issues with one but that was due to a BIOS incompatibility not a failure.

nowster · Jun 08, 2016, 07:47:01

Don't use SSDs for rapidly changing data as they do have a limited number of write cycles. Do not use one as a swap drive: fit more RAM instead.

SSDs also "decay" and have very strong error correction algorithms to fight this. When on power they do scan their contents regularly, and fix things before they get too bad. Unpowered, they can't do this, and over months errors can accumulate to the point that error correction can't recover things. Don't use SSDs as backup drives used only occasionally.

Gary · Jun 08, 2016, 08:35:47

Quote from: nowster on Jun 08, 2016, 07:47:01
Don't use SSDs for rapidly changing data as they do have a limited number of write cycles. Do not use one as a swap drive: fit more RAM instead.

SSDs also "decay" and have very strong error correction algorithms to fight this. When on power they do scan their contents regularly, and fix things before they get too bad. Unpowered, they can't do this, and over months errors can accumulate to the point that error correction can't recover things. Don't use SSDs as backup drives used only occasionally.

A lot depends on the size of the SSD of course but they have come along way since the original units, many are now 4 lane PCIe 3D NAND and are extremely fast. To go over the writes limit you have to do something like 5GB of writes a day for 5 years, some drives have been pushed beyond 1.1 petabytes of writes before wearing out! I think most peoples SSD's will outlive their pc tbh. As to unpowered SSD's read the Anandtech article I linked to. But to qote them;
"For new drives the data retention is considerably higher, typically over ten years for MLC NAND based SSDs. If you buy a drive today and stash it away, the drive itself will become totally obsolete quicker than it will lose its data.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/the-truth-about-ssd-data-retention

Simon · Jun 08, 2016, 21:55:02

I think I will probably go for the one at CCL. The only problem remaining is whether a particular piece of old software I use all the time will run on it, as it requires .NET Framework 1.1 (+SP1). I keep all of my old installation files, so I do still have the installers for them, which is fortunate, as they are no longer available from Microsoft (searching their site for them cunningly takes you to the Windows 10 page). It's no good suggesting that I upgrade the software, as later versions don't have the tool I use most (well, they do, but in a much convoluted format), so I really want to still be able to use this old program. When I get the time, I will try out the installers on my Win10 laptop, and see how far I get.

zappaDPJ · Jun 08, 2016, 23:44:26

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but .NET Framework 1.1 won't run under Windows 10, in fact it shouldn't even install.

Simon · Jun 08, 2016, 23:49:49

Bugger. That's a bit of a deal breaker. Will it not even run in compatibility mode?

colirv · Jun 09, 2016, 09:47:38

Doesn't your old software have a modern equivalent?

Clive · Jun 09, 2016, 10:30:32

Try installing the software on your Win 10 laptop Simon. Office 2010 is supposed not to be compatible with Win 10 but it works like a dream.

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 11:33:18

Quote from: Simon on Jun 08, 2016, 23:49:49
Bugger. That's a bit of a deal breaker. Will it not even run in compatibility mode?

You could try and install .NET Framework 1.1 on your laptop but I'm fairly sure the OS will detect and reject the installation. [EDIT] Which is pretty much what Clive already said above

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 14:42:39

I'm also hoping Office 2007 will work, or things could get expensive. According to my Google research, it will.

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 16:25:34

Well... .NET Framework 1.1, plus SP1, has installed on my Windows 10 laptop, as has my old audio editing software, and all appears to be functional.

The laptop was upgraded from Windows 8.1 - could that be a reason to suggest it may not work on a new Windows 10 installation?

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 16:37:55

Quote from: Simon on Jun 09, 2016, 16:25:34
Well... .NET Framework 1.1, plus SP1, has installed on my Windows 10 laptop, as has my old audio editing software, and all appears to be functional.

The laptop was upgraded from Windows 8.1 - could that be a reason to suggest it may not work on a new Windows 10 installation?

I wouldn't have thought so because it's not compatible with Windows 8.x either: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh925570%28v=vs.110%29.aspx

What also intrigues me is how you managed to install an old Windows service pack on top of Windows 10. I would have said the likelihood of achieving that was on a par with finding an honest politician

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 17:18:49

Just to be clear, it's just the .NET Framework 1.1 service pack. I guess that's what's makes it 1.1.

There were no complaints from Windows, or any requirement to use any compatibility tools. It just installed like any other program.

So, assuming the laptop survives a cold start, and carries on running correctly, it seems I could go ahead with the CCL box, as even if by some sort of Windows Weirdness the old software won't install on the new machine, at least I would be able to use it on my laptop, which would be an acceptable compromise, even if not ideal.

Of course, my old Windows 7 machine is now running perfectly, just like an old car does when you're about to scrap it...

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 17:36:42

Quote from: Simon on Jun 09, 2016, 17:18:49
Just to be clear, it's just the .NET Framework 1.1 service pack. I guess that's what's makes it 1.1.

That makes more sense. I'm still not sure why Windows allowed that version of the .NET Framework to install though but if it works it works I guess.

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 19:50:37

I did read somewhere while looking on Google about this, that if it works on Windows 7, there's a strong probability that it will work on 10, as they are not all that different under the bonnet. So far, that does seem to be correct, but I've obviously not tested everything on my Windows 7 machine on the Win 10 laptop. I don't think there's anything else though, that I couldn't do without, or find a later version of.

MisterW · Jun 10, 2016, 12:45:11

Quotethat if it works on Windows 7, there's a strong probability that it will work on 10

Unless it's IRDA hardware.
My BIL got a Win 10 laptop recently and discovered that his Infra-red dive computer software didn't work any more. M$ ( bless em! ) seem to have removed the IRDA support from Win 10. I believe they've put it back in the latest update but he's not tested it yet.

Technical Ben · Jun 16, 2016, 14:33:19

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Jun 09, 2016, 16:37:55
I wouldn't have thought so because it's not compatible with Windows 8.x either: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh925570%28v=vs.110%29.aspx

What also intrigues me is how you managed to install an old Windows service pack on top of Windows 10. I would have said the likelihood of achieving that was on a par with finding an honest politician

It was .net service pack, not windows 7 service pack.

stevenrw · Jun 18, 2016, 21:44:40

I know this is an old thread now, I was just browsing the forums and came across the recent addition.
I just have this to bung in...
Why not make a dual boot? Easily done. Same deal, your SSD will/would have partitions containing W7 and W10 and the conventional drive will be visible from either OS.
You just choose whichever operating system you want at boot.
I have done it on one of my desktops and it works fine. In fact the SSD is only 256GB and has plenty of room for 2 OSs and programs.

Simon · Jun 18, 2016, 23:27:35

Interesting thought, Steven. I've not got around to ordering the new PC yet, as I'm waiting until I have more time - a) to be in for the delivery, and b) to set it all up. As you may have read above, I have now discovered that the one program I was concerned about has installed on my Win 10 laptop, so there should be no reason why it wouldn't work on the new machine.

Technical Ben · Jun 21, 2016, 16:09:47

I'm still living on hand me downs.

At the rate of a 50% increase in processing power ever 3 years... I'll catch up with you some time after I'm pushing daises!

I'm playing with a handme down system right now that is marginally better than my current one. Only really to test running Linux as an alternative to Win10. It's ok, seems to run well, but one or two things are "off". Such as the rendering quality of the GUI, system/settings panels usability or features and of cause, the software I miss from Win7.

So I may just have to stay on 7 till the end of time.