(Still) thinking of buying a new PC

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 19:55:29

Lots to think about. Nowster's comment about the possible unreliability of SSDs is a concern. That said, I could be unlucky with a conventional hard drive, as it's not unknown for them to fail after a relatively short time. I think I've been quite lucky that mine have lasted as long as they have.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 20:00:30

Just found some more info on the Dell - it's a combi HDD+SSD: 2TB 7.2k HDD + 32GB SSD cache. So, I'm not quite sure what that means, but presumably, the OS would still be on the HDD?

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 20:43:33

Quote from: Steve on Jun 07, 2016, 10:12:50
I'm out of touch with PCs but some form of SSD drive would be a must for me, I would possibly look at hybrid drives as well. As Zap says the speed difference between HDD and SSD is astounding. Certainly I'd want OS and frequently used applications on SSD as a minimum but with the price of SSDs coming down I'm not sure of the future role of hybrid drives (Hybrid drives have an smallish SSD incorporated into a larger mechanical drive and are therefore cheaper than the equivalent larger SSD i.e..1TB)

Sorry, Steve, I completely missed this. Yes, so it seems the Dell one is a hybrid drive.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 21:10:19

So, I've been looking around and can get one from CCL, with the configuration below, for £687 with Windows 10:

Intel Core i7 4790 4GHz turbo CPU
16GB DDR3 Memory
120GB Solid State Drive
2TB Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 730
DVD Drive
3 Year Collect & Return Warranty
300Mbps Built-in Wi-Fi

http://www.cclonline.com/pc/home-pcs/bravo-pro/#features-030101020002

Clive · Jun 07, 2016, 21:28:16

16 Gb of RAM is OTT Simon. Cut it back to 8 and you won't notice any difference.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 21:36:39

I could do, Clive, but it would only save £21. I do perform quite a bit of audio editing, and that's often when my current PC struggles, so I thought the extra might help with that.

Steve · Jun 07, 2016, 21:58:44

Memory is pretty cheap though, and depending on the motherboard configuration, if you can't add to it later without throwing the existing away , it maybe cheaper to get it to start with.

Regarding the two drives maybe worth a chat with the retailer as it would be good if some automatic control of file distribution between the two, existed, whether Windows 10 can see both as one logical drive and sort the files out for optimum performance I've no idea.

Simon · Jun 07, 2016, 22:07:01

Quote from: Steve on Jun 07, 2016, 21:58:44Regarding the two drives maybe worth a chat with the retailer as it would be good if some automatic control of file distribution between the two, existed, whether Windows 10 can see both as one logical drive and sort the files out for optimum performance I've no idea.

My immediate assumption would have been that the OS and programs would be on the SSD, and the HDD would simply be used for storage. That's how I would configure it myself, anyway.

Just a thought, can you backup data (ie an OS image) from a SSD drive to a conventional HDD?

Clive · Jun 07, 2016, 22:40:33

Yes, of course. The laptop I bought for my grandson had a 500Gb conventional HDD and a 125Gb SDD. I put everything on the SDD but my son transferred some stuff over to the normal HDD.

zappaDPJ · Jun 07, 2016, 23:58:43

Quote from: Simon on Jun 07, 2016, 19:55:29
Lots to think about. Nowster's comment about the possible unreliability of SSDs is a concern. That said, I could be unlucky with a conventional hard drive, as it's not unknown for them to fail after a relatively short time. I think I've been quite lucky that mine have lasted as long as they have.

It's hard to say with any authority how SSDs compare to HDs in terms of reliability because the manufactures keep that data to themselves. In theory SSDs should last longer because there are no moving parts. What I do know is that they are not known to suffer from write fatigue but when they do fail it's usually without warning. The best information you can get is from data centres and their information seems to indicate a similar failure rate to HDs but that will improve as the technology matures. I'm now replacing my original SSDs with new ones, I think I have around 16 in total and I've only had issues with one but that was due to a BIOS incompatibility not a failure.

nowster · Jun 08, 2016, 07:47:01

Don't use SSDs for rapidly changing data as they do have a limited number of write cycles. Do not use one as a swap drive: fit more RAM instead.

SSDs also "decay" and have very strong error correction algorithms to fight this. When on power they do scan their contents regularly, and fix things before they get too bad. Unpowered, they can't do this, and over months errors can accumulate to the point that error correction can't recover things. Don't use SSDs as backup drives used only occasionally.

Gary · Jun 08, 2016, 08:35:47

Quote from: nowster on Jun 08, 2016, 07:47:01
Don't use SSDs for rapidly changing data as they do have a limited number of write cycles. Do not use one as a swap drive: fit more RAM instead.

SSDs also "decay" and have very strong error correction algorithms to fight this. When on power they do scan their contents regularly, and fix things before they get too bad. Unpowered, they can't do this, and over months errors can accumulate to the point that error correction can't recover things. Don't use SSDs as backup drives used only occasionally.

A lot depends on the size of the SSD of course but they have come along way since the original units, many are now 4 lane PCIe 3D NAND and are extremely fast. To go over the writes limit you have to do something like 5GB of writes a day for 5 years, some drives have been pushed beyond 1.1 petabytes of writes before wearing out! I think most peoples SSD's will outlive their pc tbh. As to unpowered SSD's read the Anandtech article I linked to. But to qote them;
"For new drives the data retention is considerably higher, typically over ten years for MLC NAND based SSDs. If you buy a drive today and stash it away, the drive itself will become totally obsolete quicker than it will lose its data.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/the-truth-about-ssd-data-retention

Simon · Jun 08, 2016, 21:55:02

I think I will probably go for the one at CCL. The only problem remaining is whether a particular piece of old software I use all the time will run on it, as it requires .NET Framework 1.1 (+SP1). I keep all of my old installation files, so I do still have the installers for them, which is fortunate, as they are no longer available from Microsoft (searching their site for them cunningly takes you to the Windows 10 page). It's no good suggesting that I upgrade the software, as later versions don't have the tool I use most (well, they do, but in a much convoluted format), so I really want to still be able to use this old program. When I get the time, I will try out the installers on my Win10 laptop, and see how far I get.

zappaDPJ · Jun 08, 2016, 23:44:26

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but .NET Framework 1.1 won't run under Windows 10, in fact it shouldn't even install.

Simon · Jun 08, 2016, 23:49:49

Bugger. That's a bit of a deal breaker. Will it not even run in compatibility mode?

colirv · Jun 09, 2016, 09:47:38

Doesn't your old software have a modern equivalent?

Clive · Jun 09, 2016, 10:30:32

Try installing the software on your Win 10 laptop Simon. Office 2010 is supposed not to be compatible with Win 10 but it works like a dream.

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 11:33:18

Quote from: Simon on Jun 08, 2016, 23:49:49
Bugger. That's a bit of a deal breaker. Will it not even run in compatibility mode?

You could try and install .NET Framework 1.1 on your laptop but I'm fairly sure the OS will detect and reject the installation. [EDIT] Which is pretty much what Clive already said above

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 14:42:39

I'm also hoping Office 2007 will work, or things could get expensive. According to my Google research, it will.

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 16:25:34

Well... .NET Framework 1.1, plus SP1, has installed on my Windows 10 laptop, as has my old audio editing software, and all appears to be functional.

The laptop was upgraded from Windows 8.1 - could that be a reason to suggest it may not work on a new Windows 10 installation?

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 16:37:55

Quote from: Simon on Jun 09, 2016, 16:25:34
Well... .NET Framework 1.1, plus SP1, has installed on my Windows 10 laptop, as has my old audio editing software, and all appears to be functional.

The laptop was upgraded from Windows 8.1 - could that be a reason to suggest it may not work on a new Windows 10 installation?

I wouldn't have thought so because it's not compatible with Windows 8.x either: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh925570%28v=vs.110%29.aspx

What also intrigues me is how you managed to install an old Windows service pack on top of Windows 10. I would have said the likelihood of achieving that was on a par with finding an honest politician

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 17:18:49

Just to be clear, it's just the .NET Framework 1.1 service pack. I guess that's what's makes it 1.1.

There were no complaints from Windows, or any requirement to use any compatibility tools. It just installed like any other program.

So, assuming the laptop survives a cold start, and carries on running correctly, it seems I could go ahead with the CCL box, as even if by some sort of Windows Weirdness the old software won't install on the new machine, at least I would be able to use it on my laptop, which would be an acceptable compromise, even if not ideal.

Of course, my old Windows 7 machine is now running perfectly, just like an old car does when you're about to scrap it...

zappaDPJ · Jun 09, 2016, 17:36:42

Quote from: Simon on Jun 09, 2016, 17:18:49
Just to be clear, it's just the .NET Framework 1.1 service pack. I guess that's what's makes it 1.1.

That makes more sense. I'm still not sure why Windows allowed that version of the .NET Framework to install though but if it works it works I guess.

Simon · Jun 09, 2016, 19:50:37

I did read somewhere while looking on Google about this, that if it works on Windows 7, there's a strong probability that it will work on 10, as they are not all that different under the bonnet. So far, that does seem to be correct, but I've obviously not tested everything on my Windows 7 machine on the Win 10 laptop. I don't think there's anything else though, that I couldn't do without, or find a later version of.

MisterW · Jun 10, 2016, 12:45:11

Quotethat if it works on Windows 7, there's a strong probability that it will work on 10

Unless it's IRDA hardware.
My BIL got a Win 10 laptop recently and discovered that his Infra-red dive computer software didn't work any more. M$ ( bless em! ) seem to have removed the IRDA support from Win 10. I believe they've put it back in the latest update but he's not tested it yet.