Packet Loss and Single Thread Download Speeds

[Adrian]

I suppose it was too good to last but this time really a minor issue - for now. I am seeing continuous small amounts of packet loss on IPv6. IPv4 is as clean as a whistle - go figure.

[karvala]

I'm not sure if this is the same thing or not, but I'm seeing a quite extreme version of this today.  It's sometimes a bit worse in the evenings, but today is spectacularly poor - so much so that even web browsing has become problematic.  Rebooted the modem and router (and by rebooted I mean completely powered down for a couple of minutes), but seems to have made no difference.  Will see how it is tomorrow, but if this persists I'm certainly going to ask for an investigation.  It came out of nowhere.

[zappaDPJ]

I can see PL on other IDNet customer BQMs but to a lesser degree. My connection appears to be unaffected.

[karvala]

Yeah, it was very bad yesterday.  Somewhat improved today, but still far from acceptable (see below graph; I wasn't even in during the day so nothing on that graph is related to my usage).  To my mind, it's clearly congestion related, given the timing of it, i.e. 8am to midnight, and then absolutely fine during the small hours.  The question is, where is the congestion, and who is responsible?  I'll leave it for now, but even this evening I'm getting a download speed of around 13Mbps; at 1am I will be getting 65Mbs+.  That's a HUGE drop to my mind.  Yesterday, my download speed was less than 2Mbps in multiple tests during the evening!  I think even Openreach would have to concede that is too low.

[zappaDPJ]

Something doesn't seem right, I would definitely consider sending all your findings to support. The other BQMs I can see that had similar issues yesterday have had the same today.

[Adrian]

I agree, that isn't good, and still quite bad in the wee small hours so I can't believe it is simply congestion.

Time to call support without a doubt.

Just an update, my problems have been fully resolved and I know have a nice fast connection with good single thread speeds.

[zappaDPJ]

Just an update, my problems have been fully resolved and I know have a nice fast connection with good single thread speeds.

Good to hear

[karvala]

Something doesn't seem right, I would definitely consider sending all your findings to support. The other BQMs I can see that had similar issues yesterday have had the same today.

Thanks, it's helpful to know it's not just me.  Similar problem again today:


Will definitely raise it with support, but I'll give it the weekend first.  When I've seen this once or twice in the past, it's happened only on week days for whatever reason.  Will be curious to know if that's the case this time or not.

[karvala]

Well, I sent IDNet an e-mail yesterday with TBB monitor graphs for the last month, and the result of a speed test, as well as information about what my speeds used to be until the last few weeks, and I'm getting the Tiscali treatment, i.e. is my router firmware up to date, perhaps it's electrical noise near the router etc.., basically a quick line test that shows the modem is syncing at 64Mbps followed by a denial of all responsibility.  How disappointing; I remember the time years ago when they wanted people's business and actually took problems seriously.  Now I can send a speed test results at 10pm on a bank holiday showing a single thread speed of 4.2Mbps, instead of my usual 70Mbps, and I'm told there isn't a problem....

[Gary]

Now I can send a speed test results at 10pm on a bank holiday showing a single thread speed of 4.2Mbps, instead of my usual 70Mbps, and I'm told there isn't a problem....

Were you talking to out of hours staff?

[mervl]

With any ISP it's now difficult to pursue any loss of speed if the OR/BTW tests don't show a fault. That, after all is what they're for; and as with everything these days diagnostics is now automated. I even was about the transfer to A&A but, as IDNet explained (and I knew) it'd be no different.

I had a sudden continuing dramatic loss of speed, increased latency and packet loss, even the BTW test further diagnostics said I should notify my ISP. The line test which IDNet could carry out showed no problem so I was stuck and frustrated, too. The fault: firmware on my router to which it seems BT's DLM took umbrage. I had fortunately the option to roll back the firmware which cured the fault, completely; so yes it does happen. We do sometimes have to try self-help. Or pay for an OpenReach engineer if they can't find a fault either, or eventually discover it's on the home network. That's life, we'd all like our own butler but don't pay for one. IDNet don't control the local network, so how do we suppose they are supposed to sort it out? They have to abide by OpenReach rules (as they do when they buy in capacity on anyone else's network). They don't go around digging cables or owning their own unique data centres. Like driving your car, we can't just break the speed limit because it suits us. Things change as technology develops, things that used to happen years ago, now aren't necessary. In most cases; but that's the way commerce operates, and always has. We wouldn't have it, otherwise. Sorry. It'll get even more restrictive as Ofcom hammer down on OpemReach ever harder to provide us with ever cheaper internet, at the wholesale level. We pay more to IdNet for the backhaul (or for enhanced services, but that doesn't mean that Openreach become responsible for things which aren't their responsibility, either), and only we can decide whether that is worthwhile for us.

[karvala]

Were you talking to out of hours staff?

No, I sent the e-mail out of hours but had a reply from Brian the following day.  The latest, since I objected to just leaving it alone, is that Openreach or whoever IDNet's wholesalers are these days have declared that there is no contention problem at all, which is exactly what I predicted that they would say.  It seems pointless even asking the question really; have they EVER admitted to contention?  So now I'm back to sending more speed test results.

I've also asked IDNet (or Openreach/wholesalers) to borrow another modem; I only have the one that was supplied (by Openreach, under contract with IDNet) at the installation, and it's still under warranty and they want me to test alternative hardware, so as far I'm concerned they should be supplying it and not expecting me to buy it.  They can't simultaneously argue that we need to test a replacement because it's probably faulty, but then say it doesn't need a warranty replacement because it's not faulty.

[karvala]

With any ISP it's now difficult to pursue any loss of speed if the OR/BTW tests don't show a fault. That, after all is what they're for; and as with everything these days diagnostics is now automated. I even was about the transfer to A&A but, as IDNet explained (and I knew) it'd be no different.

I had a sudden continuing dramatic loss of speed, increased latency and packet loss, even the BTW test further diagnostics said I should notify my ISP. The line test which IDNet could carry out showed no problem so I was stuck and frustrated, too. The fault: firmware on my router to which it seems BT's DLM took umbrage. I had fortunately the option to roll back the firmware which cured the fault, completely; so yes it does happen. We do sometimes have to try self-help. Or pay for an OpenReach engineer if they can't find a fault either, or eventually discover it's on the home network. That's life, we'd all like our own butler but don't pay for one. IDNet don't control the local network, so how do we suppose they are supposed to sort it out? They have to abide by OpenReach rules (as they do when they buy in capacity on anyone else's network). They don't go around digging cables or owning their own unique data centres. Like driving your car, we can't just break the speed limit because it suits us. Things change as technology develops, things that used to happen years ago, now aren't necessary. In most cases; but that's the way commerce operates, and always has. We wouldn't have it, otherwise. Sorry. It'll get even more restrictive as Ofcom hammer down on OpemReach ever harder to provide us with ever cheaper internet, at the wholesale level. We pay more to IdNet for the backhaul (or for enhanced services, but that doesn't mean that Openreach become responsible for things which aren't their responsibility, either), and only we can decide whether that is worthwhile for us.

Right, but the roll back implies the firmware had updated?  That's not the case here, to the best of my knowledge: I have no control over the stupid, dumbed-down, locked-out ECI box that Openreach supplied to me, so I don't even know if it does update it's firmware, but THEY ought to know that

From my perspective, and this is the point I have made every time in the past 15 years that BB speeds have slowed down: nothing has changed at my end, so it is highly unlikely that the problem is suddenly at my end.  Add to this the fact the problem does not occur at weekends, on bank holidays or between the hours of midnight and 8am, and we have what?  Firmware that only works outside of business hours?!  And just for the record, every time I have been right: it has turned out that there has been a problem, not on my equipment or home network, but usually in the exchange, and once in the cabinet.  Every single time this was initially denied, every time I knew they were wrong/lying, and every time I was eventually proved right.  I expect this will turn out to be the same.

This isn't about having your own butler, or wanting to break speed limits, or whatever you're talking about.  This is about supplying evidence of a clear fault, evidence which shows a systematic pattern, and asking the responsible parties, i.e. those who demand that I give them money each month for a service of a particular level, to properly investigate it.  As I have to repeatedly remind businesses: contracts are TWO-way.  They're not doing me a favour by supplying me with internet, anymore than I'm doing them a favour by supplying them with money.  I wish people would stop just rolling over every time a company tells them black is white and saying "yes sir, thank you sir, please take more of my money, sir, sorry to have bothered you sir".  No wonder we get a shoddy service so much of the time.

[Gary]

Right, but the roll back implies the firmware had updated?  That's not the case here, to the best of my knowledge: I have no control over the stupid, dumbed-down, locked-out ECI box that Openreach supplied to me, so I don't even know if it does update it's firmware, but THEY ought to know that.

ISP's are not privy to firmware that Openreach provide to those old boxes as far as I'm aware, the same as they don't know if your cab has had a firmware update. These modems do update their firmware but they are no longer supported and if your ECI has been plugged in for a long time it will have been updated. Please bare in mind if you are attached to a Huawei cab the ECI wont work as well as it does not support G.inp, in fact as yet the ECI cabs still don't support G.inp, testing is supposedly underway to fix that this year after it failed last year, this is what happens when a huge company buys cheaper cabs halfway during a roll out. Huawei cabs also sync faster than ECI's at the same distance. Openreach does not supply or give out new modems any more if they fail, no matter what it says on the tin alas. If you are on an ECI use a Vigor 130, which is expensive but the right chipset or even the Netgear DM200 which is also Lantiq and runs cooler much like the ECI Openreach modem and is a lot cheaper than the Vigor and does the same job.

Even though nothing has changed at your end, the line may have, crosstalk creeps in so people loose speed and Rein can be an issue too.  As mentioned its worth checking the modem to be sure as all electronics die sometime. You need really to use the BT wholesale tester to show your profile and if its under what your line is mean to achieve they should do something about it. Alas you need flash for that, as its the only tester Openreach will recognise, it needs updating to HTML5 as I have not had flash on my iMac for a few years now. So just to make sure you dont get stung with a huge charge if an engineer is sent out they do ask you to test your modem/routers, use the test socket etc. Bare in mind that your modem will not ever be replaced now and the power supplies do die go on these after a few years. Also as I mentioned check what cab you have and use a Lantiq chipset for ECI and broadcom for Huawei. You can google the images of the cabs they look very different.

Single threaded speed issues have been happening a lot recently, I am with Zen via IDNet and my single threaded issue was sorted, but it may be worth finding out from Brian who your back haul provider is and seeing if there are single thread speed issues on that network, then pass that info back. If IDNet test the line and see 64Mbps they really can't do much unless they see an issue with the metallic pathway and if they send out and Engineer and no fault is found they will charge you for it. My single threaded issue was a well known one Zen were having and once I found out who to talk to I passed that info back and Brian got the issue sorted. Alas I also had a very tiny battery fault (does not effect broadband speed) but Openreach wont fix these, they swap the pair if there is a spare and I lost 7Mbps because my new pair is of lower quality. So be careful what you wish for and good luck.

[karvala]

Thanks, Garry, that's very helpful and informative.

Modem firmware: unfortunately, it was confirmed by IDNet that I (and, as you say, they) have no way of accessing the modem at all, hence I can't know anything about firmware.  Seems an unnecessary lockdown by Openreach, and similarly unnecessary to withdraw support from a device which is still under warranty (to Openreach at least) from its original manufacturer, but I guess that's their decision.  I may end up having to get a Draytek Vigor as you suggest, but I'd prefer to avoid it if possible.

I don't know what type of cabinet I'm on, and my attempts to find out today fundamentally failed.  The PCP cabinet at the end of my road is easy enough to spot (and in pretty poor shape, I might add; leaning back and with the lid not properly on!), but no sign of an FTTC cabinet anywhere.  Wandering around, the nearest cabinets I could find of about the right size were a good 70m away, and none of them had vents which I believe the FTTC ones always do (according to the pictures at Kitz), so I'm a bit in the dark in that regard.  Would be nice if Openreach maintained a publicly-accessible database with that kind of info.

Where is the BT wholesale tester that would show my profile?  The only one I can find is: http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/ and that just tests my speed (and seems to overestimate my download and underestimate my upload speeds, compared to other testers).  If I go for further diagnostics with that tester, I get the test error message, and no profile info.

I'm very interested in the single threaded issue; could you or someone else please explain it to me?  I understand threads in the context of processes, but I don't know what the connection is with download speeds?  From what I've seen elsewhere in this thread, a single thread download speed significantly below the multi-thread download speed is a problem?  Because that's what I *always* see; even when my multi-threaded speed is okay (i.e. > 50Mbps), my single threaded speed is never more than about a quarter of that.  That's about the most consistent/reliable feature of my speed testing in fact.  I'm wondering what the significance of it is, though?

IDNet tested the line (not sure specifically how) and said it was okay, and that it was synced at 64Mbps.  I don't think they actually tested the speed of the line and saw a real 64Mbps download speed, or at least that's not what they told me.

[Gary]

I would not worry about getting the Draytec, it runs hot has the same chipset in it as the ECI modem anyway. The BT wholesale availability checker should show what cab you are connected too. https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s_cid=ws_furls_adslchecker The FTTC cab is never far away (usually) so look for another green cab near by mine is literally next to the original cab. Single thread speeds are important because they show your ability to stream properly, so You tube Netflix etc are all single threaded. Multi threaded saturates your line (looks better hence OOKLa use it but that's for downloads not streaming. Both should always be roughly the same if they are not your line is not performing as it should and it is sub optimal. Also a good router with a good QoS like Qualcomm's streamboost will reduce bufferbloat and help your LAN prioritise what goes where latency and packet wise, so streaming gets preference over your printer, otherwise routers try to satisfy all wireless and wired clients with the same amount of bandwidth and that printer does not need low latency and better bandwidth than say that film you are streaming, or if you are gaming etc. It does it on the fly and from cloud updates of new apps and new hardware and its requirements.

The fact the BT wholesale speed test does not complete suggest you are on a GEA connection, maybe though Zen or one of IDNets other partners, not BTW, but I would check with Brian about that. IDNet can see your profile and know what your transmission rate is, they don't have to do a speed test, its there in your data as they can see your profile which is accurate, but it does not show single vs multi threaded it just shows you what you are getting, which is pretty much all they have to provide, same with Openreach, if they see 64Mbps at your test socket then all is good as far as they are concerned.

Here is a good thread on TBB about single vs multi threaded usage, third post down explains a lot. http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/4526607-poor-single-thread-performance-fixed-thank-you-zen.html

If you are with Zen Brian needs to speak with Jonathan Green, who is the senior core network engineer for Zen Internet. He can help patch the issue which is what happened with my connection. If its not Zen you may have to do some research to find out who you are with and how to get things fixed, of course only if it is actually a problem with the back haul provider. In the meantime try a different modem if you can (you can get modems off ebay) or even a cheap TP Link one from Amazon. Its always good to have a spare anyway. Try to match chipsets once you find your cab if you can, Lantiq is really much better with ECI and Broadcom with Huawei. Hope all goes well.

[karvala]

Just to finally update this: IDNet's provider (it's not been specified who that is) said there was no contention, i.e. no problem as far as they were concerned.  That was exactly as I predicted earlier in the thread.  I absolutely refused to accept that based on the pattern of results that I was seeing (extremely poor performance during the day and the evening, absolutely fine overnight, at weekends and on bank holidays; there was even typically a slight dip between 5pm and 7pm as people came home from work).  Brian asked for some speed test results, so I tested it for a couple of weeks and submitted the results (which amongst other things showed consistently poor single-thread performance, never more than about a quarter of the multi-thread speed, which itself was never more than half what the line is capable of and used to achieve in practice).  He passed those on to their provider, and after a few days deliberation they moved the circuit on the back haul.  That has improved things dramatically; yesterday was a good day by my recent standards but it's still easy to see the difference in the following graph.

From my perspective, and this is the point I have made every time in the past 15 years that BB speeds have slowed down: nothing has changed at my end, so it is highly unlikely that the problem is suddenly at my end.  Add to this the fact the problem does not occur at weekends, on bank holidays or between the hours of midnight and 8am, and we have what?  Firmware that only works outside of business hours?!  And just for the record, every time I have been right: it has turned out that there has been a problem, not on my equipment or home network, but usually in the exchange, and once in the cabinet.  Every single time this was initially denied, every time I knew they were wrong/lying, and every time I was eventually proved right.  I expect this will turn out to be the same.

And indeed it did.  I'm not thrilled about the usual "we've run a test and it's all fine; it must be your equipment" response, and I do wish ISPs would stop this initial denial routine, but credit to Brian for at least being willing to carry on, pass over the speed test results and get it sorted in the end.

[andrue]

I've been seeing this since Monday. Nothing useful from Support so far :-/