iDNET to Migrate Entire UK Phone Network to All-IP with BT

[gizmo71]

There has to be some way for people in those areas to maintain emergency contact.

Does there? Why does there? How many cases per year are there where maintaining the antiquated analogue phone system saves a life during a power cut that would otherwise be lost? Why is it okay for one to be out in the countryside, out of range of a mobile signal and miles from the nearest landline, without a way to "maintain emergency contact"?

I am playing Devil's Advocate a bit but some really obvious technical solutions exist (like VoIP phones with LiOn batteries good for an hour or two - the user doesn't really need to know how their phone works - I'm sure most have no real idea at present) to a problem which probably doesn't really exist in the first place.

It might be cheaper and simpler to give those who can't use a VoIP phone a flare gun.

[Den]

and I know where I would stick it. 

[Postal]

Why is it okay for one to be out in the countryside, out of range of a mobile signal and miles from the nearest landline, without a way to "maintain emergency contact"?

Because that is a risk you have chosen to take.

I am playing Devil's Advocate a bit but some really obvious technical solutions exist (like VoIP phones with LiOn batteries good for an hour or two - the user doesn't really need to know how their phone works - I'm sure most have no real idea at present) to a problem which probably doesn't really exist in the first place.

When you get round to reading my post you will see that an hour or two won't be sufficient during many of our power cuts.  And I'm waiting for an explanation of how a VOIP phone works if there is no power to the ONT.

It might be cheaper and simpler to give those who can't use a VoIP phone a flare gun.

Devil's advocate or trolling?

[zappaDPJ]

I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it. I don't see Johnson's grand plan being any different especially give the current economic circumstances. I'm sure we'll get there eventually but I doubt it'll be within the allotted time-scale. It'll be the same for electric cars and Johnson's vision of banning gas boilers within the next three years which has already been deemed unattainable and removed from his 10 point green plan. They really need to give him something else to occupy his time like LEGO

[robinc]

I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it.....

This time round though the clock is already ticking - and if IDNet are an example then other service providers may well start switching over well before the cutoff date.

Yet another muggers buddle for the UK population to endure.

[Clive]

I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it. I don't see Johnson's grand plan being any different especially give the current economic circumstances. I'm sure we'll get there eventually but I doubt it'll be within the allotted time-scale. It'll be the same for electric cars and Johnson's vision of banning gas boilers within the next three years which has already been deemed unattainable and removed from his 10 point green plan. They really need to give him something else to occupy his time like LEGO

With BoJo's broadband breaking down in the middle of a televised speech it may provide an added impetus to get the election promise fulfilled. 

[nowster]

Voice is just another bit of data nowadays. That's what the bean counters believe.

[Gary]

Whatever happens, no doubt it will cost us extra money just to retain a service we've always had, and most of us see no need to change.

I don't use a landline, I have one for my careline which the new versions of work with cellular or IP. I have unlimited texts, calls and data too on my iPhone. I moved on from landlines along time ago really. I don't know that many people who still use them myself.

Things change, Fibre is the way forward with AX routers, 5G and then all that will change again. Keeping up with the changes is better than getting bogged down in the old way of doing things we are told as we are told to open our wallets for new gear it seems. Having 5G where I am means I can have great data transfer rates and it makes my Broadband look slow. I have three UPS's (APC) in case of power cuts, this has all been ongoing slowly for a few years now as I make changes. Best to keep before they grab you the short and curlies and give you a nasty surprise like this, although I wish sometime it would just all slow down, as I'm not sure the changes really make things any better when looking at the the big picture. (apart from faster broadband as more devices slurp it up) and as fibre goes in copper comes out I guess.

Although I don't see any fibre around this way yet just more crosstalk and slower BB speeds on my ECI cab. So yes its all smelling of roses of course and soon my FTTC will be as fast as my old ADSL 

[Simon]

I've never seen the need to spend money "upgrading" something that works perfectly well, just for the sake of having the latest "thing".  My PC is 13 years old, and although I've just had a hard drive failure, it's otherwise still going strong, and boots up and runs about twice as fast as my laptop which is less than half the age of the PC and runs at a crawl most of the time. 

To go back to landlines, I can hear people on the phone perfectly well.  When you listen to people calling in on radio stations, they all seem to use anything but a conventional landlines and the call quality is atrocious, with constant drop outs, and people sounding like they are either taking through a cushion, or under water.  New technology is not always better than old.

[gizmo71]

I've never seen the need to spend money "upgrading" something that works perfectly well, just for the sake of having the latest "thing".

This isn't a case of "for the sake of it", though. It makes no sense to maintain both an anaolgue phone network and digital services when the latter is perfectly capable of providing exactly the same service as the former, with lower overall maintainence costs.

By this logic we would still have analog cellular and TV networks and paying extra to maintain them alongside more modern digital networks.

[nowster]

Never mind the quality, feel the width.

[pctech]

Interesting to read this as I have FTTP with Zen but I moved the landline to IDNet but I also have a monitored alarm that is connected to that so am going to need time to speak to the alarm company about that.

Going to be pretty agitated if I get a communication from IDNet in January or February next year telling me they are pulling the plug.

The Huawei ONTI have has an analogue phone port and it does have battery backup but I understand OR have stopped fitting BBUs on new installs so as has been said, if your power goes out and you've got no mobile you're out of luck, that's of particular issue to the vulnerable and eldlerly of course.

Am probably going to move the number to A&A as my Fritzbox router has a DECT base in it (I'll prob invest in a small APC UPS to connect it to)

[robinc]

Am probably going to move the number to A&A as my Fritzbox router has a DECT base in it (I'll prob invest in a small APC UPS to connect it to)

I was looking at something similar and was quite surprised by the fact that I'd need a 1400KVA UPS minumum to power the Billion 8000 router for any length of time - the idea being to use Sipgate plus sip app on mobiles to replace the landline. I guess the solution would be to only power up the kit on APC when you need to use it but for care alarms it is going to be a real issue. My neighbour has one and the other day her landline went down. She said the worst bit was the damn alarm going off every 5 minutes. However, to give them their due OR fixed it the same day.

[robinc]

These 2 documents - and the links they contain as well - are fascinating reading especially when it comes to access to emergency services and power cuts!

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/137966/future-fixed-telephone-services.pdf

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf

[Simon]

I wish I had time to read them!  Thanks, though, they may be useful for reference.

[zappaDPJ]

I haven't really studied the implications of the switch off because it probably won't effect me in any negative way. My rather limited understanding is ADSL & FTTC are also being switched off so I'm hoping it'll lead to better quality, more affordable broadband. I really don't need a land land for voice calls.

What did occur to me is aside from power outages, how often the replacement service will go down for other reasons. As far as I recall I've only had one loss of voice line in the last 20 or so years but during that time my broadband has gone down hundreds if not thousands of times, usual at night so probably due to maintenance. If that remains the case, it really doesn't bode well for those without mobile phones or people living in a mobile dead spot.

[talos]

Will this mean there will be no landlines , we keep one phone plugged in in case of power cuts etc, will this now be useless ? 

[robinc]

..........As far as I recall I've only had one loss of voice line in the last 20 or so years but during that time my broadband has gone down hundreds if not thousands of times, usual at night so probably due to maintenance. If that remains the case, it really doesn't bode well for those without mobile phones or people living in a mobile dead spot.

In the 20 years we've been in this house we've lost our landline about 10 times. It always comes down to corroded connections, junction boxes full of water, lose connections in the cabinet, OR engineers swapping over lines and so on. All thse create noise which hits the BB hard.
Since the last fix a couple of months back our BB has been up much longer - I the 9 days was about the best. However that doesn't alter the fact that, as you say, BB connections go down far more often than voice connections. It is going to be 'challenging' to say the least.

[Postal]

Will this mean there will be no landlines , we keep one phone plugged in in case of power cuts etc, will this now be useless ? 

Afraid so, but if you have no mobile signal (or even no mobile) OfCom is expecting your supplier to give you a way to remain in contact for at least an hour according to the documents linked by @robinc.

[Postal]

In the 20 years we've been in this house we've lost our landline about 10 times. It always comes down to corroded connections, junction boxes full of water, lose connections in the cabinet, OR engineers swapping over lines and so on. All thse create noise which hits the BB hard.
Since the last fix a couple of months back our BB has been up much longer - I the 9 days was about the best. However that doesn't alter the fact that, as you say, BB connections go down far more often than voice connections. It is going to be 'challenging' to say the least.

But that's the whole point isn't it?  The fibre connections have a totally different level of reliability as compared with the copper connections between cabinet and property so you will see far fewer internet problems when FTTP is delivered (or at least that is what is being sold to us).

[robinc]

But that's the whole point isn't it?  The fibre connections have a totally different level of reliability as compared with the copper connections between cabinet and property so you will see far fewer internet problems when FTTP is delivered (or at least that is what is being sold to us).

The new 'standard' is SOGEA (Single Order General Ethernet Access) or what we now call FTTC. That 'last mile' is still over whatever lumps if metal are under the road/pavement. Therefore we will still have the same issues surrounding old copper connections in cabs for years to come. This opens a can of worms in terms of how long OR will actually carry on fixing old copper connections.

Line rental charges will carry on as before as that is just the cost to the user of providing the link no matter what technology it employs.

No matter what permutation you use it's going to need another bit of kit (VoIP of some sort) in order to use a 'normal' phone if you do not have mobile access. So, yet more cost and something else to plug in on yet another adapter. Having looked at the setup of some of the ATA adapters and VoIP phones I just cannot see how some older/IT challenged customers are going to cope.

[Postal]

The new 'standard' is SOGEA (Single Order General Ethernet Access) or what we now call FTTC. That 'last mile' is still over whatever lumps if metal are under the road/pavement. Therefore we will still have the same issues surrounding old copper connections in cabs for years to come. This opens a can of worms in terms of how long OR will actually carry on fixing old copper connections.

Until last month the government pledge was 100% Gigabit connection by 2025 (although the Treasury spending review rolled that back to 85% last month) so "years to come" is perhaps overstating what most consumers will see as it is difficult to see what could be used for Gigabit delivery except for FTTP at the current level of technology.  I'm in no way positing any belief in the Government statements about this subject but it would be good to avoid overstatement on either side of the discussion.  In this case, if the Government target is met and there is deployment at a steady rate from the current ~35% to 85% over half of the population will not be relying on copper by early 2023.  Yes, issues for the other half but not apocalyptic.

[robinc]

Until last month the government pledge was 100% Gigabit connection by 2025 (although the Treasury spending review rolled that back to 85% last month) so "years to come" is perhaps overstating what most consumers will see as it is difficult to see what could be used for Gigabit delivery except for FTTP at the current level of technology.  I'm in no way positing any belief in the Government statements about this subject but it would be good to avoid overstatement on either side of the discussion.  In this case, if the Government target is met and there is deployment at a steady rate from the current ~35% to 85% over half of the population will not be relying on copper by early 2023.  Yes, issues for the other half but not apocalyptic.

I live in a typical rural situation, group of houses that has grown a bit over the years from the middle of 20thC to now. Odd short cul-de-sacs have been added at times and services supplied using whatever was being done at the time. During the late 60s and early 70s they used armoured aluminium - ductless - cable due to copper shortages.
Now, I think there's only about 12 houses affected. One of our neighbours had an FTTP connection installed last week. 5 days from holes being cut in pavement - and he's right next to a/the only BT hole in the pavement - to OR engineer walking up and down the road between all the various BT boxes heading to the cab. Given the demographics it is unlikely anyone else is going to be paying for a new FTTP we are looking at either a massive project of digging and installing or a piecemeal scattergun of digging up and installing. I am in a slightly interesting situation in that if they are going to install FTTP they're going to have to go under a block paved driveway as the existing phone line runs on the surface in a beech hedge.
Not quite the same as blowing some new fibre down a nice empty duct.
As part of the remaining n% I will take little comfort from the knowledge that the rest of the UK is OK. However if you multiply that up by a factor of X I hope you'll understand that I take any estimates with a very large pinch of salt - especially given that the country is going to be cash strapped for decades to come while we pay off our covid debts. Given that this process was set in place well before covid I would have thought it would be more realistic to move the end date rather than charge towards it brexit style. Just my 2.5d worth 

[gizmo71]

Not quite the same as blowing some new fibre down a nice empty duct.

I assume they will just throw down ethernet cables under rubber running strips which will already be there for us to charge all the eletric cars parked out on the street.

[zappaDPJ]