Telephone

[talos]

 

Me again more questions, when the phone system changes , will the ordinary plug in the wall skt still work , Its the only phone my wife can use because of her hearing loss. She has a hearing aid with a loop system , but it seems all phones have a screen which interferes with her aid ,our plug in the wall phone does not and is perfect with the hearing coil in her aid . Any suggestions most welcome.

BOB

[robinc]

Me again more questions, when the phone system changes , will the ordinary plug in the wall skt still work , Its the only phone my wife can use because of her hearing loss. She has a hearing aid with a loop system , but it seems all phones have a screen which interferes with her aid ,our plug in the wall phone does not and is perfect with the hearing coil in her aid . Any suggestions most welcome.

BOB

As far as I can tell, the offering will be an ATA/VOIP adapter that plugs in to your router. The tricky bit is that the connection to the phone will be an RJ11 rather than a phone jack. So, if the phone has a fixed cable on the handset you will then need an adapter to fit in the RJ11 port and take the normal phone connector. This is called 'progress' and we must all embrace it 
What no-one seems to be addressing is that if this goes wrong do they seriously expect an older or non-IT literate person to log in to their VOIP box and do stuff to it? Madness.

[Den]

What happens when you have a power cut and your router does not work? 

[talos]

As far as I can tell, the offering will be an ATA/VOIP adapter that plugs in to your router. The tricky bit is that the connection to the phone will be an RJ11 rather than a phone jack. So, if the phone has a fixed cable on the handset you will then need an adapter to fit in the RJ11 port and take the normal phone connector. This is called 'progress' and we must all embrace it 
What no-one seems to be addressing is that if this goes wrong do they seriously expect an older or non-IT literate person to log in to their VOIP box and do stuff to it? Madness.

What happens when you have a power cut and your router does not work? 

These are both my major worries, surely BT will provide something for the elder generation on the none tech savy to use, or am I living in cuckoo land .

[Simon]

What happens when you have a power cut and your router does not work? 

The same as what happens when you have a power cut and you have DECT phones.  That's why I've always had a corded landline connected as well.  I'm really not looking forward to this change.

[Gary]

What happens when you have a power cut and your router does not work? 

Use your mobile if its charged which it should be. I have not used my landline apart for careline activity in years. Anyone who wants me calls my mobile. People who rely on landlines need I'm afraid things are changing and if you don't change with them you get left behind. My careline is going to GSM so eventually I'll go SOGEA and not have a dial tone.

[Postal]

Use your mobile if its charged which it should be. I have not used my landline apart for careline activity in years. Anyone who wants me calls my mobile. People who rely on landlines need I'm afraid things are changing and if you don't change with them you get left behind. My careline is going to GSM so eventually I'll go SOGEA and not have a dial tone.

And for those who through no fault of their own live in a mobile not-spot?  This has been done to death in other topics in this Forum and is a genuine concern for those of us who are worried about the safety of those living in such places.  We could easily have had an incident with major consequences in our community a few weeks ago when we had a 12-hour power-cut during which an ambulance had to be summoned for one of the residents.  Without the copper landline and hard-wired phone the resident would have had to somehow attract the attention of one of the neighbours (difficult considering the condition she was in and which required an ambulance) and then expect the neighbour to drive out of the village until a mobile signal could be accessed in order to make the emergency call.

In the overall scale of things there will only be a small part of the population who are in that situation but it is very discouraging the attitude of those who are not in that situation and who think they are taking the moral high ground by assuming everyone that anyone not following their bandwagon is a Luddite.

[robinc]

Use your mobile if its charged which it should be. I have not used my landline apart for careline activity in years. Anyone who wants me calls my mobile. People who rely on landlines need I'm afraid things are changing and if you don't change with them you get left behind. My careline is going to GSM so eventually I'll go SOGEA and not have a dial tone.

My mobile is charged - but it makes not one sodding iota of difference if you haven't got a signal.

In addition, take a look at mobile mast outage sources and you'll see great swathes of the country without signal at all times of the day and night.!

[talos]

My mobile is always charged,  but my wife cant use it because the screen interferes wit her hearing aid , it produces a loud buzz, impossible to hold a conversation 
and the signal is so bad you have to stand out in the garden to use it , great in the winter

[peasblossom]

I've googled and nothing thus far tells me what someone without a router (or a PC/laptop etc) and no interest in getting one, does. [Neither are remotely technical. Whereas I'm fine with computers, they are most definitely not. Both are a good bit older than me.] I know at least two people in that category. They do have mobiles but I don't think they'd really want to be using them all the time. And as others have said, sometimes the signal can be dismal/non existent. I appreciate why BT are doing this but I'm not wholly sure they've thought it through.

[john7]

Use your mobile if its charged which it should be. I have not used my landline apart for careline activity in years. Anyone who wants me calls my mobile. People who rely on landlines need I'm afraid things are changing and if you don't change with them you get left behind. My careline is going to GSM so eventually I'll go SOGEA and not have a dial tone.

The last time we had a power cut it took the mobile phone mast powere as well so the only phone working was out wired one we could plug into the master socket.

[john7]

My mobile is always charged,  but my wife cant use it because the screen interferes wit her hearing aid , it produces a loud buzz, impossible to hold a conversation 
and the signal is so bad you have to stand out in the garden to use it , great in the winter

This is what we used to have before moving, a BT engineer was almost despairing as he was dependant on his
mobile phone to run the tests needed. In our case then you had to walk down to near a village hall as the reception in the garden was not usually working! In Wales, were we keep a caravan, there are very large areas, even in some towns, with no mobile reception, a problem those using google maps for navigation find out the hard way.

[peasblossom]

I've googled and nothing thus far tells me what someone without a router (or a PC/laptop etc) and no interest in getting one, does. I know at least two people in that category. Neither are remotely technical. Whereas I'm fine with computers, they are most definitely not. Both are a good bit older than me. They do have mobiles but I don't think they'd really want to be using them all the time. And as others have said, sometimes the signal can be dismal/non existent. I appreciate why BT are doing this but I'm not wholly sure they've thought it through.

I mangled my edit. It should have read as above.

[zappaDPJ]

I've been trying and failing miserably to get some authoritative information on SOGEA. There's a possibility that we might move to an area that has no mobile coverage at all and no fibre. It's also potentially an issue for my mother-in-law living in a mobile/fibre dead spot in Wales.

What I did turn up in a search today was a uninformed and rather patronising article on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56831212

[Simon]

I've been trying and failing miserably to get some authoritative information on SOGEA. There's a possibility that we might move to an area that has no mobile coverage at all and no fibre. It's also potentially an issue for my mother-in-law living in a mobile/fibre dead spot in Wales.

What I did turn up in a search today was a uninformed and rather patronising article on the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56831212

From that article:

The survey, which spoke to 2,000 people in March this year, found those of us with landline phones were spending an average of only five minutes a day making calls with our fixed-line phones.

Those five minutes a day could be a lifeline to some people, and as has been said, not everyone has a practical alternative to a landline phone.  I really hope this is thought through before it has devastating effects for some vulnerable people.

[zappaDPJ]

It seems to me there are a lot uncertainties involved at the moment. For example Juno Telecoms are saying one of the drawbacks is '...SOGEA and SOGFast users will no longer have access to a phone number, as they did with an analogue line. SoGEA does not allow users to connect traditional phone to the Openreach socket. Users will have to adopt VoIP or VoIP softphones to be able make and receive phone calls.'
https://www.junotelecoms.co.uk/services/business-internet/sogea/

So what are the implications for that? Does it mean it's all IP driven? What information will I need to 'dial' to contact the emergency services? If it is IP driven how will that sit with the GDPR? So many questions but no one seems to have any answers.

Of course this may all work out for the best in the end but it would be good to know in advance all the implications.

[Simon]

I like my phone number, and wouldn't want to lose it.  I thought I read somewhere that there would be ways to keep existing numbers.

[zappaDPJ]

I thought I read somewhere that there would be ways to keep existing numbers.

I thought the same

[robinc]

These 2 documents - and the links they contain as well - are fascinating reading especially when it comes to access to emergency services and power cuts!

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/137966/future-fixed-telephone-services.pdf

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf

[Simon]

I'm surprised there hasn't been already, but I think there will be an outcry when this gains traction and hits the tabloids.

[peasblossom]

 I've had my phone number for years now and, like Simon, would be pretty unhappy to have to change it. I too think that when the tabloids get hold of this BT may not know what's hit them.

[gizmo71]

I've had my phone number for years now and, like Simon, would be pretty unhappy to have to change it. I too think that when the tabloids get hold of this BT may not know what's hit them.

From one of the documents (my emphasis):

While all landline customers will eventually need a broadband connection to continue receiving a phone service, they will still have the same phone number and use phone numbers to make and receive calls.

[Simon]

From one of the documents (my emphasis):

While all landline customers will eventually need a broadband connection to continue receiving a phone service, they will still have the same phone number and use phone numbers to make and receive calls.

That's good to know.  Let's hope they stick to it.

[peasblossom]

That's good to know.  Let's hope they stick to it.

What Simon said.

[zappaDPJ]

That's good to know.  Let's hope they stick to it.

I could be comparing apples and oranges but this seems very close to home: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/sogea-landline-number-to-voip-migration.36536/

[Simon]

This is looking very complicated and concerning, especially given that it seems to be something we're not going to have any choice over. 

[zappaDPJ]

I'm not trying to muddy the water and I'm generally not a Luddite but more I read about this the less I understand.

[Simon]

How do you even call somebody on this new system?   

[robinc]

This is still one of the better articles on the subject

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/04/swapping-to-broadband-voip-from-a-uk-copper-home-phone-line.html/3

[L2020]

I've been on VoIP and ditched the landline some 18 months ago and on FTTP so the copper line is dead.  People will keep their same landline number (if they wish) when moving to VoIP. 

If everything works perfectly, then VoIP should be indistinguishable to a normal landline, even down to using the same phones.  In many ways this change has already happened, just the VoIP part happening in the telephone exchanges and our calls sent around as digital data from there.  Most businesses we might contact over the phone are VoIP already having no traditional landlines.

If a person only has a landline now, then to continue that "landline" they will need an Internet connection, so a box plugged in all the time.  Openreach have cheaper Internet products that only provide a very slow data speed, enough for VoIP but nothing else, for those that only want a "landline" and not the Internet. 

The trouble is, a normal landline is pretty simple at our end, just two wires, we can even have a dodgy connection and it still works just with a few crackles.  The power to operate our corded phone is sent over the same two wires and it is just a case of plug a phone in and that's it.  The telephone exchange has back up power, so in the event of a power cut we can still use our landline.  Major exchanges have back up diesel generators so even extended blackouts still see our phone working.  Running a telephone system however is pretty complicated and requires some major hardware and expense, and with traditional landlines all that complication is at the telephone exchange and looked after by someone else, it isn't our responsibility.  Trouble is, we aren't making enough landline calls to cover the costs of all that equipment and upkeep of the exchange buildings.

So welcome VoIP.  Essentially the telephone exchange is moved into our own home.  We now have to host the equipment, power it, provide back up power if required, and have all the complications of looking after more bits of kit.  The ultimate aim of Openreach is to decommission all copper lines and have everything on fibre, and they don't see voice as part of their product range, they will solely deal with moving data, this means VoIP and a "landline" is the responsibility of our ISP or other third party to provide us with.

There are a few ways VoIP will be supplied, one way is the ISP provides us with a modem/router that contains a normal phone socket (the BT HomeHubs have a normal BT style phone socket so you can just plug a phone straight in https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/learn-about-the-ports-on-your-bt-hub).  These supplied routers are preconfigured (or remotely configured on first plugging in) and just work providing the modem/router also has a working internet connection, then plugging in the phone will give a normal dial tone and work in the same way, and it will also be possible to plug the router into the master socket which back feeds any wired extension phones.  Openreach have new faceplates that have a switch to disconnect them from the incoming landline for the voice part to prevent back feeding into the entire network.

Another way is the ISP (or which ever provider a person uses) provides an adapter or ATA (Analogue telephone adapter), a small box that contains a processor, software and electronics to do VoIP with a socket you plug a phone into, this is the same kit built into routers that come with a phone socket, just sold separately, again it can be automatically configured.  These are likely to be the most troublesome as they are reliant on the router they are connected to handling the connection correctly.  The router may not work well over NAT on IPv4.  IPv6 makes things better as the ATA can have a public facing IP address but that can still require the routers firewall to be opened up to all incoming connections, so the person may need some knowledge on how to do this, and so it may not be plug and play.  Issues seen with separate VoIP kit is often only getting audio in one direction, calls dropping after a certain amount of time and not receiving incoming calls.  Similar to an ATA, a person can also buy a DECT cordless base station and handsets, where the base station has a built in ATA, these have the same potential issues.

As a nod to how we are now housing and running the telephone exchange, a dial tone on VoIP is actually created by the router/ATA itself, it's a false dial tone, means nothing really, just makes us think it is a normal landline.  In many cases the dial tone may sound American or different, as it often not set up to sound like a UK one.  The ringing tones, again, are generated by the router and will often sound like we are calling an international number.

If we want the phone line to work in a power cut it will be down to us to supply backup power to all the kit in the chain, although it is expected those selling VoIP services will supply a backup power supply for vulnerable people.  However these will have nowhere near the length of runtime of a diesel generator at an exchange, and the VDSL cabinets that many will be connected to for some time (until all copper is gone) only run for 8 hours or so before they stop. 

Really the landline as we know it is being discontinued and is being replaced by a pseudo landline, something that tries to replicated a landline but has none of the reliability aspects we've come to expect from one.  Like most bits of kits these days, our "landline" will need software updates, tinkering with, and turning off and on again on occasions. 

[dudwell]

Thank you for all that L2020. Literally minutes before your post I learned that FTTP will arrive shortly in my postcode and I'm invited to say whether I'm interested in having it. Hopefully IDNet will make it all as simple as possible but for the moment I'm quite befuddled