Dropouts worse than ever

[Clive]

As mentioned in another thread, I've been experiencing frequent drop outs that last for around 5 minutes after which the Billion router reboots.  Today it has been a nightmare as my wife has not been able to watch her Youtube channels without interruption.  IDNet tested the line with and without the router switched on and are sending an engineer to visit on Wednesday morning.  I shall keep you posted.

[Simon]

Just wondering if the router might be overheating?

[dudwell]

YouTube videos buffering badly. Router is in room at only 24 degC. Must be due to heat somewhere else. Or Brexit or Covid or the Russians or net zero....?

[Clive]

Strangely, since I spoke to Chloe at ID Net I have had no further problems.  BT have confirmed their appointment on Wednesday but it must be a scam because they didn't ask for my bank account details. 

The problem started some months ago when the weather was much cooler Simon but it was certainly much worse today so it could well be heat related.  Our lounge temperature was 32 most of the day. 

[Simon]

Wow, that's even hotter than mine.  Are you sure you don't live in a care home?   

[zappaDPJ]

Are you sure you don't live in a care home?   

Even my 95 year old mother-in-law had her heating off today!

[talos]

Ive been having a lot of dropouts lately, more in the pm than am. I think it may be heat related, even some freeserve channels have gone haywire   

[Clive]

It's back to continual dropouts this morning. But true to form I've had a scam email from BT about the visit tomorrow.  It's clearly a spam because it comes from a gmail account.  And they want me to click on a nice big link.   

[dobber]

Spikes and dropouts since the end of March.

[Clive]

BT had given a timeframe of 8am until 1 pm for the Openreach engineer to call and annoyingly he didn't turned up until 1255.  But he was a very pleasant chap who got down to work straight away.  He dismantled the wall socket and said the problem was not external but a near short circuit in the phone system.  He then narrowed the problem down to the callblocker attached to the second socket.  The meter showed that once it was removed my internet connection was happy.  I've decided not to bother getting a new callblocker as almost all my spam calls are sent to the mobiles.  So all's well that ends well.  Hopefully. 

[Clive]

ID Net have just called to check that the problem has been solved.  Top marks for that! 

[Simon]

Funnily enough I had a problem with a Call Blocker as well.  It wasn't so much interfering with my internet, but I could hardly talk to anybody on the phone because there was so much crackle and interference on the line. As soon as I disconnected the call blocker the line was clear as a bell.

[Clive]

Definitely worth disconnecting as it would have saved a lt of trouble and a great deal of grief from SWAMBO who took each and every dropout very personally.

[robinc]

BT had given a timeframe of 8am until 1 pm for the Openreach engineer to call and annoyingly he didn't turned up until 1255.  But he was a very pleasant chap who got down to work straight away.  He dismantled the wall socket and said the problem was not external but a near short circuit in the phone system.  He then narrowed the problem down to the callblocker attached to the second socket.  The meter showed that once it was removed my internet connection was happy.  I've decided not to bother getting a new callblocker as almost all my spam calls are sent to the mobiles.  So all's well that ends well.  Hopefully.

As it was your kit did you qualify for the £180 charge???

[Clive]

There was no mention of that but it had crossed my mind.  Wait and see I suppose. 

[Clive]

Just one dropout today which is a monumental improvement. 

[Clive]

This afternoon I've had a further three dropouts so I'm going to rescue the callblocker from the bin.   

[Clive]

Call blocker rescued but not connected.  Two further disconnections.   

[Clive]

I'm beginning to see a pattern emerging.  More when I can establish this. 

[Clive]

It seems to happen mainly during the afternoons - why should that be? 

[Simon]

Hottest part of the day?  Or was it established this isn't heat related?  Maybe keep a log of the times, and see if there's any sort of pattern?

[zappaDPJ]

Setting up a BQM could help diagnose the issue: https://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/broadband-quality-monitor

[nowster]

If the problem goes away after dusk and then returns in the afternoon, it's probably damp in a junction box somewhere.

When the problem is happening, on a hard wired phone (not a cordless), dial a single digit (eg. 1) and listen to the silence.

For a longer "silence" dial 17070 then select "quiet line test" which is, I think, option 2.

Crackling will be a dud joint. Rhythmic ticking could be an electric fence.

The only problem with this is that using the phone (taking the phone off-hook) will pass current through the joints in the cable, which might temporarily fix the fault.

Do incoming calls (ie. ringing) cause your DSL to resync too?

Pre-broadband, engineers used to use a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psophometer

[Clive]

That's the meter the BT engineer used when he came a week ago.   He showed me it was red with the blocker in place and green when it's removed.  Not sure if it resyncs with an incoming call but I will monitor that.  I've carried out a quiet line test and can't detect any static or crackling. 

[Clive]

I can be more specific about the timing of the dropouts as they are almost always between 3pm and 5pm.  We have received several calls on our landline this afternoon, none of which has caused the internet to go down. 

[Clive]

Setting up a BQM could help diagnose the issue: https://www.thinkbroadband.com/faq/broadband-quality-monitor

Unfortunately I appear to already have an account with this website and it won't let me create another.  I don't remember having the account and can only assume Rik might have suggested it many years ago. 

[robinc]

I know you've probably already tried this - but running dslstats http://dslstats.me.uk/ for 24 hrs would provide a nice view of what's going on from an inside perspective at the same time as the BQM from outside. It would certainly help confirm the frequency and duration of outages as well.

Out of interest - nothing running on a timeclock on your mains supply?

UPS anywhere? Thinking mains noise when charging...

[nowster]

Is there an immersion heater set for that time?

[Clive]

I haven't given up on BQM yet because we may just be arguing over the name of my graph.  I do have an immersion heater timed for most of the afternoon so that is certainly a very valid point! 

Not sure what UPS is Robin unless it stands for Universal Power Supply?  I have lots of cables and multi socket connectors near the router - in fact the router is plugged into one.  And it's next to the TV - and a new sound bar.  But apart from the sound bar, the system has worked faultlessly for around five years.  There has been a huge improvement since I ditched the callblocker and no increase in unwanted calls. 

[Simon]

I think it's Uninterruptible Power Supply, so like mini backup generator. 

[robinc]

I think it's Uninterruptible Power Supply, so like mini backup generator.

Lets think more in terms of battery backup for power cuts/blips/smoothing - the kind of thing everyone will need when BT have scrapped conventional phone lines and you've no mobile signal so you have to use VOIP.

[Postal]

Lets think more in terms of battery backup for power cuts/blips/smoothing - the kind of thing everyone will need when BT have scrapped conventional phone lines and you've no mobile signal so you have to use VOIP.

But liable to be quite a pricey option if you live in the rural areas where power cuts are measured in the hours rather than the minutes.  OfCOM are running another consultation process after the huge amount of noise that was generated from rural areas in the aftermath of last winter's storms as the penny has finally dropped in their metrocentric citadel that one hour is not enough back-up cover for those who do not live in the same urban world as them.  In our mobile phone free rural area we normally see three or four outages a year which last about 12 hours (normally a tree bringing down the overhead lines).  Even just to have a UPS for the modem/router and VOIP phone to cover that time gap is going to cost getting on for £100.    Adding in a contingency margin for the rare power cuts that last a few hours longer is going to up the ante again.

[Clive]

I definitely don't have UPS!   

[Clive]

When I try to log into BQM I get the following error message: 

We have detected that you are connecting to us from the IP address: 212.69.**.***
If you would like to monitor a different IP or hostname, please enter it below.

IP / Hostname
212.69.**.***
The host 212.69.**.*** is already monitored by you.

[Simon]

I've masked your IP address for security, Clive. 

Can you not login to your ThinkBroadband account?

[Clive]

Yes, I can log in but I'm unable to obtain the stats for my current IP because it seems welded to the IP I've given on a previous encounter with the software.  I've had lots of dropouts today, all between 2pm and 4.30 pm - yes the immersion heater was on.  But the ambient temperature is also very warm.

[Simon]

When I log in I see a link to 'Create a New Monitor'.  Clinking that link produces the screen attached below, where it gives the option to either use my current IP or a new one.  Do you not get that screen?

[Clive]

Yes, that's exactly what I get.  Presumably I have to give the graph a moniker such as Clive's Router? 

[Clive]

It then immediately throws up an error message which I described a few posts ago. 

[Simon]

Right, so it seems to be saying your IP is already monitored, so you should have an existing graph you can use. 

[Clive]

Which I suspect Rik set up for me.  But how can I find out what it's called?

[Postal]

Which I suspect Rik set up for me.  But how can I find out what it's called?

Send an e-mail to team@thinkbroadband.com, explain the circumstances and see if they can help?

[Clive]

Very good idea!  I'll do just that.

[Clive]

The reason I think Rik set it up is because I am logged in as PCPal. 

[Clive]

Now it says csrf token: CSRF attack detected. 

[Clive]

I've sent them an email. 

[Simon]

I kept telling you to stay off those dodgy farming websites! 

[Postal]

Now it says csrf token: CSRF attack detected. 

Happens sporadically.  Close the window, re-open and try again and it normally works OK the second time.

[Clive]

So I've had a swift response which shows I set up the monitor in 2014 so I've taken Rik's name in vain!  Here's the reply:

You have a monitor you set up in 2014 for 'flatxx' - it's disabled probably because it stopped responding. You should be able to delete that on your profile?
If that isn't the issue can you share the IP address you're trying to add? Also what account/e-mail address did you use before if it's a different account and I can check.


I'll send the information they require. 

[Clive]

 My Broadband Ping

[Clive]

I know the red spikes were outages because I experienced them but can anyone explain what the small yellow spikes represent and the level of the near continuous green band that hovers around 90% ish?  To be fair, Think Broadband were incredibly helpful in resurrecting my account - very impressive. 

[Clive]

I can see that the yellow spikes refer to latency which is very low. The green band also refers to latency but 90 is quite acceptable.  Yet again I've had three dropouts in a short period of time this afternoon although we were not present to notice them.   

[Postal]

If I understand the BQM correctly, the left hand scale gives the latency in ms which applies to the green and yellow entries while the right hand %age scale refers to the red sections which show packet loss on the round trip from TBB to you and return.  Obviously when your connection is down the loss is 100% and the red fill goes from top to bottom of the graph.  The green section is the normal base latency of your connection with the yellow overlay indicating that the connection is busy and the latency is a bit longer as the connection works a bit harder to send and receive data.  For example, if you stream any video (maybe You Tube or a TV feed) you will see a heavy yellow section while that is happening.

As a side note, looking at the green band it seems that the drop outs are re-connecting to different Zen gateways as the latency is normally governed by the laws of physics so the distance to the gateway is the limiting factor.  The lower latency sectors are presumably when you are connected to the near at hand gateway and the higher latency when you are connected to the further away gateway.  I think the gateways are in London and Manchester.

[Clive]

Thanks very much for the explanations Postal.  Are you saying that I'm being kicked off one gateway then reconnecting to a different one?  Why do you think that might happen?  Is it my fault or some dastardly plot to get rid of me?   

[Postal]

I am assuming that IDNet have put you on Zen backhaul (otherwise this is all irrelevant)!

There is a lot of talk around t'internet about Zen and their gateways.  The gist of it seems to be that gamers look for low latency so if they end up on the wrong Zen gateway they drop the connection and re-connect.  If they are still on the high-latency connection they rinse and repeat until they get onto the nearer gateway.  Given the population distribution this means that the London gateway gradually gets overloaded.  Zen remedy this by forcing some of the London connections back to Manchester.  However the reports are that such a process normally takes place at about 02:00 so I have no idea what is causing your problems.

[Simon]

Clive, just a thought, but would it be worth seeing if any of your near neighbours experience the same sorts of dropouts, which could indicate something going on within the building?

[zappaDPJ]

I've seen a lot of BQMs but I've rarely seen one that's so clean/angular/digital (for want of a better phrase) in appearance. I'd say your problem is being caused by an event rather than a poor quality line. I don't think that's a live graph so I'd post another/new link to it for comparison.

[Clive]

I know the building better than anyone because I manage it and I know of nothing that happens in the afternoon.  Apart from a security system and communal lighting we have a passenger lift, car lift, water pumps and garage gates.  The car lift is out of action at present as someone has driven into it and we are waiting for parts from Germany.  Ill wait until this evening and paste today's stats here.  Many thanks for all your help. 

[nowster]

My suggestion is to compare the graphs over a few days. If you're still getting disruption regularly between about 4.40 and 5.15pm, maybe turn on a portable medium wave radio at about 4.30pm, tune to a very weak radio station and listen for half an hour. You may hear a crack or buzz about the same time as the dropout on the DSL.

[Clive]

 My Broadband Ping

Strangely, no dropouts today for the first time in ages.  The weather has been dismal with constant wind and rain blowing off the sea.  Temperature indoors 24C.

Thanks for the radio advice Nowster, I have a multiband set that I can charge up and tune to a weak station. 

[Clive]

I won't be able to carry out the test tomorrow as we have visitors in the afternoon but I certainly will on Thursday. I've just put my little XHDATA on charge.   

[Clive]

I did manage to carry out that experiment this afternoon but once again there have been no dropouts recorded on the graph in the past 24 hours.  It was back to warm sunshine this afternoon.

[nowster]

I did manage to carry out that experiment this afternoon but once again there have been no dropouts recorded on the graph in the past 24 hours.  It was back to warm sunshine this afternoon.

A watched pot never boils. 

[Clive]

So after two days of perfection it all went haywire today with five dropouts during the usual time slot.

[Clive]

 My Broadband Ping

[Simon]

The dropouts look almost exactly every 15 minutes between 5 and 6pm, Clive. 

[Clive]

I don't know of anything that could have caused them.  We were here all the time but had a visitor for part of that time frame and only experienced two of the dropouts.  The immersion heater turns off around 4pm and we had no appliances on at all as we were chatting to a neighbour.  I've not put the callblocker back because since removing it I've only had one spam call on my landline. 

[nowster]

That seems impressively regular. The problem might not be in your own house, hence the MW radio suggestion.

[Clive]

I don't think it is either but I can't for the life of me think what could be the culprit.  Where the router is situated is an end wall of the building outside of which is a narrow lane and then a restaurant which is well below as we are on the 4th floor.  Opposite is a theatre which really only comes to life in the evenings.   

[Simon]

Would it be possible to relocate the router as an experiment?

[Postal]

I don't think it is either but I can't for the life of me think what could be the culprit.  Where the router is situated is an end wall of the building outside of which is a narrow lane and then a restaurant which is well below as we are on the 4th floor.  Opposite is a theatre which really only comes to life in the evenings.   

Does the theatre start prepping up before they open (e.g. turning on the auditorium lights, testing the stage lighting etc.)?

[Clive]

The router is plugged into the main socket coming into the house which I understand is the best place for it.  We have another socket in the main bedroom but I would not be popular if there were flashing lights all night in the bedroom.

They do test all the sound and lights etc in the afternoon before a performance but they don't have a show on every night.  At this time of year they have a lot of daytime activity for children and I should imagine they would run their tests before them too yet the outages rarely happen outside the usual afternoon slot. 

[Clive]

Two today within the usual parameters. 


My Broadband Ping

[Postal]

Two today within the usual parameters. 


My Broadband Ping

So has it been resolved in the last three weeks or is it still ongoing?  If resolved, was the cause identified or was it one of the mysteries of the internet?

[Clive]

Thanks Postal.  I've been in London these past few weeks enjoying wondrous superspeed hyperoptic broadband.  But now it's back to reality.  I left the router on during my disappearance and the monitor shows no dropouts occurred today.  We didn't get home until 5 pm but presumably it gets the information from the router not the computer.  I'll continue to monitor it but only the router was left on so that may be significant! 

[zappaDPJ]

presumably it gets the information from the router not the computer. 

That's correct Clive. So long as the router is powered, that's all that's required

[Clive]

Thanks Zap.  With most of my appliances fired up again I had only one dropout today around midday. 

[Clive]

None for two whole days. 

[Postal]

Has anyone near you just gone on their holidays or moved away?

[Clive]

Nobody living nearby has moved or gone away.  It makes less sense each day but I've received a second monthly bill from ID Net and I haven't been charged for the callout.  There is no doubt that removing the callblocker improved the situation immensely.  And I can live with one or two dropouts a day.  But I'd love to get to the bottom of it. 

[Clive]

Another day, without dropouts. 

[Clive]

But not today.  THe internet went down at 10 am which was confirmed by my router lights.  Later in the day  checked out Think Broadband which showed a red line at 10 am.  I'm pretty sure that I usually get a yellow line to signal a dropout?  So was today's event a different type of dropout or does this confirm I have really lost my mind?   

[Simon]

A red line is a dropout.

[Clive]

Is it a harsher dropout than a yellow line? 

[zappaDPJ]

Is it a harsher dropout than a yellow line? 

A red line means your device is not contactable so it's either turned off or your connection in to it is down. The yellow line indicates maximum latency so if the line goes to the top of the graph that suggests hi latency/a saturated line. If there is a large amount of yellow in the graph it usually indicates either a poor quality connection or you have a house full of teenagers maxing out your connection!

[Clive]

Thanks Zap. 

[Clive]

I'm going to whisper it quietly but there have been no dropouts in recent days.    touch wood and invoke any other pagan superstitions.   

[Clive]

Dare I hope the problem has resolved itself?  Perhaps it was caused by the high temperatures we had this summer?   

[Simon]

Fingers crossed! 

[Clive]

Toes too!