ADSL MAX Sync drops - getting more and more frequent :S

[AvengerUK]

Hey all,

ive recently noticed my line becoming more and more unstable since first switching to ADSL max. During the 10 day test and beyond my line would only resync once a day, if that. However, recently its become more like 5 a day, and some of those tend to be for more than the normal ~1min for it to resync!
Im not really sure why its happening, as no new equipment has been added/nothing changed etc. --> L8nc graph: http://www.l8nc.com/graph.php?jid=58e61f6e3d3d258ec640ec3f21295d2e

as you can see, its fine during the night, but the rest of the time its a little unstable :/

Any advice? 

[Jeff]

First of all, turn l8nc off then you`ll not be getting pinged all day

Hard to tell anyway from a l8nc graph, to me though, if you weren`t using your connection at all and it starts to spike, classic exchange congestion would be the first thing to mind.

Have you got any line stats to hand? (Sync speed, looploss and SNR specifically). Make/model/firmware of your hardware, connected telephony devices, type of master socket, filter etc (right now, remove faceplate and plug directly into master socket, disconnect any sky boxes etc).

[cosmicdance]

I had problems with my ADSL Max disconnecting Avenger.
After changing from a Speetouch 330 USB modem to the Netgear DG 834 router I now very rarely get disconnects, still in the 10 day training aswell.

Hope this helps.

Andy

[sobranie]

Using Dg834G here. Speeds after the contention period are over 6000 BUT during CP they can be anything from 500 to 3000.
I feel sure as more and more hop on the BB waggon d/l complete films etc  things are going to worsen until such time as BT u/g the exchanges tho. I feel that hell will freeze over b4 that.

[AvengerUK]

Stats atm are:
Modem Status
   
Connection Status         Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)         448
Ds Rate (Kbps)         1952
US Margin         18
DS Margin         1
Trained Modulation         GDMT
LOS Errors         0
DS Line Attenuation         62
US Line Attenuation         31
Peak Cell Rate         1056 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast         3957
CRC Tx Fast         15
CRC Rx Interleaved         0
CRC Tx Interleaved         0
Path Mode         Fast Path#

Router being used is a SART2-4115. Is there any other things i can try to improve my DS SNR? Ive already replaced all cableing from the master socket to up-stairs - (and to the router). which helped alot!

[Jeff]

Those stats are poor, in fact, pre-Max you would be lucky to get 1 Meg.

An ADSL Master Faceplate Splitter may help, also some CAT5 patch cable may help. Your downward SNR is very low, the only advice ere would be to purchase a Netgear router. They are reknowned to hold sync. even with an SNR of zero, many would back me up on this.

The thing is, I believe you when you say that you may have had a previously better connection with someone else. An old trick in the past by many ISPs when an individual user was suffering poor throughput, loss of sync etc was to perform a "lift and shift" to a different line card at the exchange and in essensce, migrating to another ISP does exactly this, though IDNet have no control over this :\

If you knew someone with a Netgear, ask to borrow it perhaps? Cheapest Netgear is this one. There are better models but ironically, it`s the one I use and trust. Lots of manual configuration required to get it to perform as I want it (port forwarding, service inclusion etc) but I can`t complain, works for me.

There is always Simon, Tim, Miriam and Adam to chat to in Tech Support. They may be able to action something for you, perhaps get your line capped say at 1.5Mbit

[AvengerUK]

Yeh, pre-max 512 was the fastest possible!

The faceplate cirtainally sounds like something to try! - As for the netgear router, id rather not! Safecom routers remain to be my only trusted brand, ive had family members with netgear routers who had nothing but trouble! (and im 'skint' ) I do however have a USR-9003 router handy, perhaps i should try this?

"
The thing is, I believe you when you say that you may have had a previously better connection with someone else. An old trick in the past by many ISPs when an individual user was suffering poor throughput, loss of sync etc was to perform a "lift and shift" to a different line card at the exchange and in essensce, migrating to another ISP does exactly this, though IDNet have no control over this :\" -- What i ment was during the 10 day period AND 1 month or so beyond that, Max was fine! the stats were virtually similar to what i have now (and it was with Idnet) and id be only re-synced once a day.

If i got my line capped to sync @ 1.5, would that mean my profile/download speeds would be around/just under 1mbit?

Thanks for all your advice so far

[Jeff]

Yes, why not try another router ... can`t hurt Like I said, Netgear routers usually need some user intervention to get em to perform, but they do perform I`m not knockin` what u have mind, never used them so can`t comment

If you were capped to say 1.5Mbit, your maximum throughput would be no higher than say 180KB/sec, but if you`re experiencing difficulties now with a higher sync rate, you will probably find that a slightly lower sync gives for a much cleaner experience.

Funny as it seems though, the whole point of Max and it`s 10 day training period is to set your profile, ie, BT equipment monitor your line and determines it`s ideal sync rate, so you would think all should be well, huh? :\ Though I`ve said it all along, each line is individual ... dunno if you`ve ever heard of crosstalk ... this is where certain lines can be susceptible to nearby electrical equipment. Fridges and microwaves are line killers. Does your phone line look as if it goes near any dodgy appliances, or perhaps in the street .... traffic lights or whatever? All food for though my friend

No need to thank me for help ... it`s me feckin job around here

[AvengerUK]

*Slaps himself plenty of times* I tried my 2 old routers last night, the first, the USR9003 managed to sync at 1333, then at 1400 something! My old safecom router managed around 1600. Obviously my current router is better than i first thought - shame i messed up my profile in the process

[mrapoc]

my speedtouch 580 does perfectly - get one off ebay if u want a new 1

[Simon_idnet]

I saw some research by BT recently where they tested a bunch of different modems and routers on the same (good quality) PSTN line. The variation in performance between the slowest performer and fastest was about 2Mbps.

The quality of your modem / router can be a significant factor in the speed and stability that you experience.
Simon

[sobranie]

I saw some research by BT recently where they tested a bunch of different modems and routers on the same (good quality) PSTN line. The variation in performance between the slowest performer and fastest was about 2Mbps.

The quality of your modem / router can be a significant factor in the speed and stability that you experience.
Simon

Simon,
Care to post a link to this or possibly a list of best/worst router etc.?

[Richdog]

I saw some research by BT recently where they tested a bunch of different modems and routers on the same (good quality) PSTN line. The variation in performance between the slowest performer and fastest was about 2Mbps.

The quality of your modem / router can be a significant factor in the speed and stability that you experience.
Simon

Great idea, there should be a "reccommended routers" list.

Simon,
Care to post a link to this or possibly a list of best/worst router etc.?

[Simon_idnet]

I would post the research results if they were online but I can't find them online - I suspect that may be because the manufacturers would proably be more than a little sensitive about it. I'll see if I can dig it out again though.
Simon

[JetMars]

My adsl max is also dropping quite frequently especially during peak times, Can take up to a minute just to reconnect, My line is not the best in the world but is supposed to be able to handle 3.5MBPS on Max.

Im using a netgear DG 834 with firware 4.01.02.00, I am luckly to keep a connection for more than 3 mins before disconnection  I connect via CAT 5 cable that goes into my main bt socket downstairs.

Anyone help?

[Simon_idnet]

Since we had a thunderstorm here last Thursday my router has had real trouble maintaining sync. (it was a sudden storm, my wife was out and I couldn't get home to disconnect it).

So far, I have resisted sneaking into our stores to simply pilfer a replacement. I want to try eveything that we recommend to our customers who experience the same.

I have noticed that the disconnects are more frequent in the evenings - sometimes every 4 or 5 minutes. It really is *very* frustratinig. Now, I know that it is not an issue at the IDNet end. So I want to establish what if anything can be done, short of replacing the router, to regain stability between my home and my exchange.

When it gets unbearable, I have had marked success in powering-down the router for 20 mins. This seems to stabilise my connection again, often giving me up to hour before another disconnect. But this is not ideal when you've got to do something (I have had to resort to ISDN several times, which isn't pleasant after being used to broadband!).

I know that it is not an exchange-wide issue as several customers that I know of in this dialling-code area are OK - they didn't disconnect their routers either but then maybe I was the only one who had a lighting strike nearby (and that is conjecture as I wasn't around to witness a lightning stike, if there was one).

What is interesting, to me, is that my BRAS profile appears to be unaffected so far despite these frequent disconnects. Nor has the DLM implemented Interleaving on my line, yet. So my sync rate must be consitent despite the drop-outs. I'm waiting to see if the exchange increases my SNR in an attempt to decrease the drop-outs.

I'll let you know what happens next.
Simon

[AvengerUK]

Thats a very similar scenaro ive been having simon - since a group of thunderstorms, (i think there where 3 in 1 week) ive seen a rise in disconnections/Latency spikes - all of which are max related, one 30min reboot sorts it all out for a day or so.

[jimc]

mmm

I am going through a similar scenario, fault has been back and forward to BT like a yo-yo
random disconnects in the evenings usually between 21:00 and 03:00
BT has changed my SNR profile and manually set my MSR, last fix was to re-seat the line card which they were confident fixed it, but alas it persists,
Brother in law round the corner with plus-net on 512k suffers disconnects as well, his line stats are very poor though, I suspect a dodgy BT cable down the hill,
Now as far as I am aware my brother in laws neighbour who is with eclipse and has a netgear router does not suffer disconnections.
coincidently my brother in law and I both have the same Belkin router?
after reading here I am tempted to buy a netgear.

[Jeff]

 Could you not ask your neighbour for a loan of his Netgear Jim?

I had some trouble with Plusnet a couple of years ago (please, I know we all did but it`s not the point ) with disconnections. I swapped the filter for another, whether it was coincidence or not (I see no technical reason why this should work) but it worked!

[Simon_idnet]

One of our customers has just explained to me how he had a little (mischievous) fun with his wifi-hijacking neighbour.

http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html

To be fair, many Windows users have no idea which wifi-network they are connected to - Windows will happily connect to any unsecured network that it finds without informing its human operator.
Simon

[Jeff]

Yeah! Sweet 

[jimc]

wouldn,t really like to ask for a loan of his gear,
been down the filter route though have a drawer full of them from the cheapest to the supposed dogs b**lcks and can honestly say none of them have made a difference, and as is typical it has been refered back to BT and has been solid for today and tonight, no doubt in anticipation of an engineers visit, im sure they do something before a visit.
just seems to be random drops in SNR
for instance have a gander , I have been keeping a sloppy record

date               timee      synch    snr     att
19-07-06      23:20      3456   16.5   37   
19-07-06      16:20      5280   13   37   
21-07-06      08:30      1088   31   37   
21-07-06      19:50      5024   12   37   
21-07-06      23:50      4224   13   37   
22-07-06      08:55      2976   21.5   36   
22-07-06      21:45      4288   13.5   37   
23-07-06      02:00      4288   12   37   
24-07-06      02:00      2112   22.5   36   
26-07-06      13:15      3520   20   37   
26-07-06      21:10      4704   15.5   37   
27-07-06      21:10      4032   16   37   
27-07-06      21:45      4192   13   37   
28-07-06      02:15      3584   13   36   
01-08-06      17:30      5120   12   37   
01-08-06      17:32      1760   26.5   38   
01-08-06      17:40      5120   12   37   
01-08-06      18:20      3648   19   37   
01-08-06      21:30      4800   12.5   37   
01-08-06      21:55      4544   14.5   37   
01-08-06      23:30      1760   26.5   37   

(hope that formats ok)
sometimes there is errors, sometimes not

[Jeff]

Actually, your SNR is quite brilliant, but I`m more than alarmed about your fluctuating sync rate.

These entries:

01-08-06      17:30      5120   12   37   
01-08-06      17:32      1760   26.5   38   
01-08-06      17:40      5120   12   37   

All within 10 minutes of each other. There is no valid reason why your sync should drop to 1760 when your SNR was previously 12!! Even if your SNR dropped to zero and you lost sync, your sync should not drop by 2/3rds 

Right now, I`m synced at 6528, my "att" is 48 and my SNR is 1 (good ole Netgear), throughput is about 5600 ... you have a problem somewhere m8! Maybe a good idea if BT do come around

[jimc]

agreed there is a problem somewhere, I have had my router plugged in to the master socket with nothing else on and still the same.
My only concern is as its obviously intermittent and usually late at night BT engineer will have a no fault found and bill me?

[jimc]

Oh
The reason I highlighted the SNR is I am assuming a fault on the cable somewhere perhaps moisture in a dp or something would cause a sudden drop in SNR hence triggering a disconnection/reconnection at the faulty SNR

hope that makes sense?

[AvengerUK]

Hmm, Does anyone know what "SNMP" actually does? Im aware its some kind of monitoring but would it monitor just speed or speed and SNR etc? - My router doesent logg what happens to well, so im looking for alternatives to keep an eye on my desyncs

[Simon_idnet]

Hi AvengerUK

It stands for Simple Network Management Protocol. Many network-attached devices: routers, switches, printers, UPS's etc are SNMP-enabled. On our Cisco routers we can monitor not only bandwidth use but CPU activity, RAM utilisation, Voltage, Temperature etc

What you can monitor on your ADSL router would depend on the features that the manufacturer has built-in for it.

Regards
Simon

[mrapoc]

ahahahah owned that internet thief 

[jimc]

right
Just ordered this router
ZyXEL Prestige 660H ADSL Security Router
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=1093
quote

"The Prestige 660H series also support RE ADSL (Reach Extended ADSL) for better performance at greater distance"

couple of reviews say it has helped with problematic lines.
will let you all know results

[AvengerUK]

right
Just ordered this router
ZyXEL Prestige 660H ADSL Security Router
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=1093
quote

"The Prestige 660H series also support RE ADSL (Reach Extended ADSL) for better performance at greater distance"

couple of reviews say it has helped with problematic lines.
will let you all know results

Looking forward to hear the results - i may consider getting myself one if it checks out

[cavillas]

Simon is really one of us, a normal human being who gets the same problems.  It's refreshing to know that he is not worried about sharing his experiences, either.  On the other hand who do you call for support ?   

[AndyG]

BT has changed my SNR profile

Hi

Could you please tell me how you managed to get BT to change your SNR profile?  Mine was upped from 6db to 9db a month or so ago and I could do with getting it back to 6db.  The change probably occurred as a result of a couple of spells of thunder and me testing sometimes unstable router firmware for Draytek.  The problem I have now is that if my router retrains between dusk and dawn when the noise level is at it's highest I get a low sync speed and corresponding low data rate which then takes 3 days to recover.  Any help appreciated.

Andy

[jimc]

well I did not personally get them to change it,
it was done through IDNET reporting the fault to BT
and as I am led to believe BT rather than going out to investigate a fault will just tweak SNR from the exchange (or maybe even remotley)

[AndyG]

Hi

Thanks for the reply.  As above, I'd like to get my margin reset but so far it doesn't seem possible.  Seems like the only time BT will intervene is when investigating a reported fault.

Andy 

[AvengerUK]

right
Just ordered this router
ZyXEL Prestige 660H ADSL Security Router
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=1093
quote

"The Prestige 660H series also support RE ADSL (Reach Extended ADSL) for better performance at greater distance"

couple of reviews say it has helped with problematic lines.
will let you all know results

Any news?

[jimc]

Zyxel P-660H-D1
purchased from Broadband Buyer
http://www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk/Shop/ShopDetail.asp?ProductID=1093
£52.06 including vat+postage

well I was going to hold off , for a while for further testing , but initial impressions are very good .I have a total uptime of 57 hours and synched at 6080.
The very night I connected th zyxel I was suffering speeds of half a meg while synched at around 4080, and initially that stayed the same and I put it down to exchange contention, however around 02:00 hrs I suffered a disconnection for around 10 mins and could not re-connect, now I have an outstanding fault with BT and I am not sure whether this was an attempt at some repair, be it BT or the Modem, the fix seems to have worked.
My intention was to test for around a week and then swap back the Belkin F5D7630-4a, and see what happens.
I have already reccomended one to my brother who is impressed, and will be reccomending to my brother in law when he returns.

If this indeed has sorted my problem it is certainly worth the £50 or so quid,
I will keep you all updated, but for if you are still unsure ,but for £50 go for it, give it a try.

[AvengerUK]

Sounding good! - I may wait a few weeks before i get mine, out of interest how are the Firewall/Port forwarding etc?

[jimc]

complicated or sophisticated ?
whichever way you see it, has a load more options than the Belkin
but still getting my teeth intoo it.

[AvengerUK]

- Cant be worse/harder than a USR9003 - terrable router!

System Uptime : 77 hours 17 minutes  - apparently? -  does that mean my connection or just my router?

Connection Status           Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)         448
Ds Rate (Kbps)         1856
US Margin         18
DS Margin         5
Trained Modulation         GDMT
LOS Errors         0
DS Line Attenuation         62
US Line Attenuation         31
Peak Cell Rate         1056 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast         621
CRC Tx Fast         7
CRC Rx Interleaved         0
CRC Tx Interleaved         0

My l8nc graph is still showing that i disconnect 4 times or more in a day http://www.l8nc.com/graph.php?jid=58e61f6e3d3d258ec640ec3f21295d2e

[Jeff]

My l8nc graph is still showing that i disconnect 4 times or more in a day

Being pinged every second might not help! 4 times a day ain`t bad with those stats, I think we`ve said it before, only way we thought that you would have a 24/7 always on is to drop down to 1MBit or possibly even 0.5MBit

[jimc]

mm
yeh mine states an uptime of 77hours , that looks like the lenght of time the router is on, not the link uptime, because my latency graph shows a disconnect as well.

Jeff what problems could be caused by being pinged every second?