speed problem?

[DerekR]

hi folks, I just joined IDNet last week (on Home Supermax package) and everything was going swimmingly, good solid download speeds etc.

However today everything seems to be crawling. I popped over to speedtest.net and this is what I got.



Is there a problem somewhere? I can post modem stats if required.

Thanks.

[Rik]

Hi Derek

Welcome to the forum, have a karma. 

My instinct is that you've had a low-sync event which has dropped your profile.

Can you post the line stats, particularly downstream, and also do a BT speed test if possible, as that will tell us what profile you are on.

[DerekR]

Aha the ever helpful Rik, one of the reasons I decided to go with IDNet after lurking on here for a bit

Is this what you are after?

Modem Status
Connection Status   Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)   832
Ds Rate (Kbps)   2720
US Margin   8
DS Margin   15
Trained Modulation   GDMT 
LOS Errors   0
DS Line Attenuation   45
US Line Attenuation   24
Peak Cell Rate   1962 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast   0
CRC Tx Fast   0
CRC Rx Interleaved   1
CRC Tx Interleaved   0
Path Mode   Interleaved


DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count   0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count   0

I think that DS rate used to be 7 thousand and something last week so you could be right on the money with your instinct.

Not sure how to do a BT speed test but I'm all ears.

Thanks for the welcome

[Rik]

Hi Derek

To do a BT test, go to:

http://test.speedtester.bt.com:50301/

You'll need your phone number and your IDNet login to use it. It's worth noting that it's often busy, so be patient. You don't need to complete the test if it is sluggish, just get to the start of it, when you are told your profile.

However...

You have a downstream margin of 15db. That suggests you've had significant noise problems on the line and that your target margin has been raised from the default 6db. It will take about six weeks to restore that if, and only if, you can maintain a stable connection for 14 days at a time. The noise margin will lower the sync speed, but yours still seems low for the line attenuation.

What sort of internal phone wiring do you have, ie do you have several extensions, and do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom part of the faceplate can be detached.

Did you notice exactly when the problem started, could you tie it to an electrical event, eg fairy lights being turned on?

[Inactive]

Welcome Derek, have a Karma.

[Noreen]

Derek, hopefully you'll get your speed problems sorted out soon.

[DerekR]

What sort of internal phone wiring do you have, ie do you have several extensions, and do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom part of the faceplate can be detached.

Did you notice exactly when the problem started, could you tie it to an electrical event, eg fairy lights being turned on?

Hello again Rik. I first noticed the problem when I tried to download a file today from Easynews. Instead of the 650-700K/sec I was getting last week I was getting a steady 40K/sec.

The only thing I can think that I have done recently is disturb the cobra's nest of wiring behind my TV whilst trying to plug the ariel cable into a freeview box. My telephone is connected to an extension amongst this mess and I have noticed noise on the line when making voice calls from time to time if this extension is disturbed.

Anyway to cut a long story short I have disconnected all my telephone equipment as a test and have only the cable from the modem/router plugged straight into the master socket (which is an old style one by the way, with the large BT 'T' symbol on it). These are the modem stats I get now:

Modem Status
Connection Status   Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)   832
Ds Rate (Kbps)   3008
US Margin   8
DS Margin   11
Trained Modulation   GDMT 
LOS Errors   0
DS Line Attenuation   46
US Line Attenuation   24
Peak Cell Rate   1962 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast   0
CRC Tx Fast   0
CRC Rx Interleaved   0
CRC Tx Interleaved   0
Path Mode   Interleaved


DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count   0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count   0

The DS margin varies from 9 to 13 every time I refresh the modem properties page.

Now that I have ruled out all the equipment inside the house my thoughts now turn to the external box on the front of the house. This is hanging away from the wall and has been like this since I had some rendering work done on the front of the house. The fact that I know it has been like this for a while without any problems being experienced is irrelevant I suppose, since it's possible that something has worked loose due to recent high winds or maybe water ingress. I have reported this to BT via their website and they are currently performing a line test and I am waiting to hear back from them.

Thanks for all the help and the warm welcome.

[Rik]

Hi Derek

It sounds like your internal phone wiring may be at the root of your problems, possibly exacerbated by an external issue, eg water getting in. Your u/s margin is very low, so I do suspect a fault on your line. However... If you get BT out, you will face a bill if the fault lays after your master socket, and we're talking of £160+.

Take a look at the wiring guide and see what you can do in the way of self-help. Also, try a quiet line test, dial 17070, then select option 2. Listen for any audible noise.

Once you've done that, I would suggest getting IDNet to test your line for you and, if necessary, to arrange a visit from a broadband engineer, but that really should only be done once you've checked everything you can yourself.

If there's anything I can clarify, just yell.

[Simon]

Hi Derek, and 

You're in good hands with Rik, so hopefully the root of your problem will soon be found and sorted. 

[DerekR]

Just had a call from BT engineer reporting absolutely no problems on my line, in fact he said it was as good as he had seen recently. Not being blessed with much knowledge on the subject I didn't really know what to say to him other than the fact that I'd posted my modem stats on here and been told that my figures were not very good. He said he couldn't help further and that I would have to take up any slow broadband speed issues with my ISP.

I'm at a bit of a loss what to do now, I guess it is now just a matter of waiting to see if my sync speed improves over the next 14 days?

I have left all my phone equipment unplugged overnight, just got the modem plugged straight into the master socket and the figures look the same as yesterday...

Modem Status
Connection Status   Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)   832
Ds Rate (Kbps)   2688
US Margin   8
DS Margin   13
Trained Modulation   GDMT 
LOS Errors   0
DS Line Attenuation   46
US Line Attenuation   24
Peak Cell Rate   1962 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast   0
CRC Tx Fast   0
CRC Rx Interleaved   19
CRC Tx Interleaved   51
Path Mode   Interleaved


DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count   0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count   0

Managed to run the BT tester this morning too...

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  2688 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1858 kbps

[Rik]

Hi Derek

The engineer you spoke to is a voice engineer, and his view of the line is taking into account just that element. He's perfectly right that you need to raise this with IDNet.

However... You have 10db less d/s attenuation than me, but you are synching 600kbps lower. That suggests to me that you have a lot of noise on your line (there could be other reasons, but that's the first thing to check out). If you have multiple extensions, your internal wiring may be picking up that noise. Have you read the wiring guid I linked to, and checked for the ring wire and also any split pairs?

Once you've done that, then raise a fault with IDNet and they can test the line and, if necessary, get an engineer out. The risk there, though, is that if the fault is found to be with your wiring, you will get a bill.

It is possible that, if you can maintain a stable sync for 14 days, the noise margin will drop (and thus sync speed will increase) but if you have any instability it will not. Also, the u/s margin remains unusually low at 8db.

[DerekR]

Hi Rik,

Rest assured I have printed out your excellent wiring guide and I'm working my way through it 

Haven't resorted to lifting wires out of terminals yet but if that's what it takes then I'm prepared to give it a go. Which figures in particular should I be looking for improvements in? and what is considered an improvement? lower figures? Sorry if this is going over old ground but you must remember most of us are laymen when it comes to some of this this terminology. All I know is I have had a rock solid 8meg connection for some time with my previous ISP (but I'm not blaming IDNet, I had a taste of top speed when I first signed up), so something has happened somewhere and I am determined to get to the bottom of it. I know my line can sync at close to max speed, it just doesn't want to any more for some reason.

Just one query, the fact that I have tried with all my other equipment disconnected and only the modem/router plugged in, yet you say you think my noise problems could be to do with internal wiring...doesn't this rule it out? Or by internal wiring did you mean between outside and the master socket?

Also, if I do what you recommend and I do see improved figures, how do I force a resync? Do I just power cycle the router? Its just that the sync value appears to be changing without me doing anything from time to time (has been 4000 and something, now back down to 2176 as I type this)

Probably wont have much chance to try much this weekend as I'm working nights. I will be able to spend longer on it and do some troubleshooting come Monday. Thanks again.

[Rik]

Hi Derek

Haven't resorted to lifting wires out of terminals yet but if that's what it takes then I'm prepared to give it a go. Which figures in particular should I be looking for improvements in? and what is considered an improvement? lower figures?

Removing the bell wire is a fairly simple task, but can have almost miraculous results. What I'd expect you to see, by way of improvement, is an increase in your d/s sync speed, the noise margin might also decrease, but that's much less likely.

Sorry if this is going over old ground but you must remember most of us are laymen when it comes to some of this this terminology.

That's alright, just kick me if I resort to too much jargon.

All I know is I have had a rock solid 8meg connection for some time with my previous ISP (but I'm not blaming IDNet, I had a taste of top speed when I first signed up), so something has happened somewhere and I am determined to get to the bottom of it. I know my line can sync at close to max speed, it just doesn't want to any more for some reason.

I had a perfectly amicable connection for months (long before I joined IDNet), then one morning I had nothing. A BT engineer came out, re-wired my internal connections and my line has been rock-solid since. The problem is that the system was designed for voice, and we are asking a lot of it with ADSL. What would not be a fault for voice is often the difference between working and not working with broadband.

Just one query, the fact that I have tried with all my other equipment disconnected and only the modem/router plugged in, yet you say you think my noise problems could be to do with internal wiring...doesn't this rule it out? Or by internal wiring did you mean between outside and the master socket?

By wiring, I mean any internal, hard-wired, extensions. Even with nothing plugged into them, they can drag noise into the system. Anything after the master socket is down to you as far as BT are concerned.

Also, if I do what you recommend and I do see improved figures, how do I force a resync? Do I just power cycle the router? Its just that the sync value appears to be changing without me doing anything from time to time (has been 4000 and something, now back down to 2176 as I type this)

Power cycling the router is probably the best way to force a re-sync - it doesn't than appear as line instability to the BT monitoring equipment. If you're seeing changes in the sync speed, the router is losing the connection and re-connecting of its own accord, almost always because of excessive noise on the line.

[DerekR]

By wiring, I mean any internal, hard-wired, extensions. Even with nothing plugged into them, they can drag noise into the system. Anything after the master socket is down to you as far as BT are concerned.

That's a relief, since I only have the master socket, nothing else hardwired. I'm going to move the router closer to the socket and connect with a known good (non-flat) cable and leave my telephone and Sky box disconnected over the weekend to see if things improve. This means losing my wired network for a while as the cables wont reach but at least my laptop can connect via wireless for the time being. At least this will determine whether or not the fault lies with BT and I can get IDNet to investigate if I see no improvement. Is it safe, or indeed permitted, for me to remove the bell wire from the master socket?

[Rik]

In your case, Derek, there should be no bell wire. If you're out of contract with Sky, I'd suggest leaving that permanently disconnected - Sky boxes are often quite noisy beasts.

[DerekR]

In your case, Derek, there should be no bell wire. If you're out of contract with Sky, I'd suggest leaving that permanently disconnected - Sky boxes are often quite noisy beasts.

Unfortunately I'm not. I'm not sure how my Sky box will react to being disconnected for a few days but we shall see.

I've just connected as above and these are my current stats

Modem Status
Connection Status   Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)   832
Ds Rate (Kbps)   4064
US Margin   9
DS Margin   11
Trained Modulation   GDMT 
LOS Errors   0
DS Line Attenuation   45
US Line Attenuation   23
Peak Cell Rate   1962 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast   0
CRC Tx Fast   0
CRC Rx Interleaved   0
CRC Tx Interleaved   0
Path Mode   Interleaved


DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count   0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count   0

Getting there but still not as high a sync as I've seen. Let's see how it pans out over the weekend.

[Rik]

Sky don't generally police the phone connection on single-box installations, Derek. Multi-room is another matter, however, but I don't think that applies to you given what you've said about your wiring.

It looks to me like you've hit a low-sync event and the system needs to recover. That could take 14 days with a stable connection, though. You might want to get IDNet to test the line, so that they can get an engineer on to it if there is a fault, before we hit the Xmas 'shutdown'.

[DerekR]

What is the best way to get in touch with IDNet to run a test? I've had a look through the support pages but if you know a shortcut it would be appreciated

Whils looking through the support pages I found the following quote:

"To ensure you receive the best possible speeds it is recommended that you have your router plugged directly into the BT master socket with BT approved micro filters or NTE-5 face plates"

Does this mean I should have a microfilter in place between the router and the master socket? I thought filters were only required for telephones and suchlike, I've never plugged my router in through one, should I?

[Rik]

What is the best way to get in touch with IDNet to run a test? I've had a look through the support pages but if you know a shortcut it would be appreciated

I usually give them a ring, 0800 0267237

"To ensure you receive the best possible speeds it is recommended that you have your router plugged directly into the BT master socket with BT approved micro filters or NTE-5 face plates"

Does this mean I should have a microfilter in place between the router and the master socket? I thought filters were only required for telephones and suchlike, I've never plugged my router in through one, should I?

The ADSL side of the filter is, in fact, unfiltered. However, it has an RJ11 socket for the modem lead, which is the most convenient way for people to connect as most modem leads are RJ11/RJ11, not RJ11/BT. How did you plug everything in?

[DerekR]

I had a doubler on my master socket, with the router plugged straight in via a flat RJ11/BT cable I think I got from Maplin (I'm a terrible cable collector, got boxes full of them hehe). The other side of my doubler ran up the wall and under the upstairs floorboards then came down the back of my TV where a trailing socket picked up the telephone and sky box (via filters) through a Sky supplied doubler

[Rik]

Is that cable to the Sky box flat or round, Derek?

[DerekR]

Is that cable to the Sky box flat or round, Derek?

Flat, and quite long

[Rik]

That will not be helping, then, as flat cables don't use twisted pair configuration and, therefore, pick up noise. If it's convenient for you to move the phone to the master socket, I would suggest doing that and leaving the Sky box unplugged. If you need to keep the phone where it is, then pick up an extension kit from B&Q etc, ensuring it uses round cable - most do. When you wire it, make sure you use a pair of wires, eg blue/white and white/blue.

[DerekR]

Just a quick update. I have got myself a nice round RJ11-RJ11 cable (I got a 15M one so I can basically put my router back on the shelf where it was but I figured being 2.2KM away from the exchange, another 15M wasn't going to matter too much). This means I have one cable from my router plugged into a single microfilter at the master socket. I have opened up the master socket and checked that the bell wire was disconnected, which it was. Telephone is also plugged into this filter and that is all I have connected up, no extensions, nothing.

Here are my latest stats.

Modem Status
Connection Status   Connected
Us Rate (Kbps)   832
Ds Rate (Kbps)   3936
US Margin   9
DS Margin   11
Trained Modulation   GDMT 
LOS Errors   0
DS Line Attenuation   46
US Line Attenuation   24
Peak Cell Rate   1962 cells per sec
CRC Rx Fast   0
CRC Tx Fast   0
CRC Rx Interleaved   0
CRC Tx Interleaved   0
Path Mode   Interleaved


DSL Statistics
Near End F4 Loop Back Count   0
Near End F5 Loop Back Count   0



and a result of the BT speed test I just did 10 mins ago.

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  3936 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2322 kbps

Actually I have a question about this test result. Where it says 'IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps', is that figure based on my current sync speed? Or is it a BT rating? What should it be? Sorry, getting confused by the terminology again I'm afraid. I've been doing a lot of reading on this and other forums during my nightshifts at work and my brain is frazzled hehe.

I guess it is now a waiting game to see if my DS Margin comes down, (is that right?) which will hopefully allow me to sync at a higher speed (I'm pretty sure I was syncing at the top figure of 8128 before all this started). Have I grasped the basic idea there?

I feel I should mention that I have ordered a Thomson ST-585v6 from DSL Depot for £20, as I understand this modem allows the user to tweak the target SNR. Does this sound like the kind of thing I should be trying? Or am I getting my jargon mixed up? Will this mean I wont have to wait the 14 days as previously mentioned before seeing an increase in sync speed?

I'm going to wait til the new modem arrives and see how I get on before raising a fault with IDNet.

[Rik]

Hi Derek

The extension lead seems to have dropped your speed slightly, but that may just be time of day. For your sync speed, you should have a profile of 3000, but if you've had instability, it will have fallen and will now take 3-5 days to recover (unless you have another low-sync event).

The Profile is a BT invention, designed to take the load of their systems. Telcos don't like instability and change, so the profiles reduce the amount that happens. They are not technically necessary, neither is the wait for the profile to recover, but BT like it that way.

I would advise against using DMT to tweak noise margin, except as a brief experiment. It throws out the management software and can lead to a worse state of affairs, wait the 14 days to get it fixed properly.

IAC, 3db isn't making the difference between 8128 and 3936, something else has changed on your line if you used to get an 8182 sync. Have a word with support, they might be able to identify when the change occurred.

[Lance]

For your attenuation, of 45/46, I would be surprised if you had ever synced at 8128. However, there could be more things to try, such as the new router.

The BT profile is based on your sync speed, and takes up to 5 days to adjust to your sync speed. To see the profile boundaries, take a look in the FAQ thread.

If you keep a stable connection for 14 days, your target noise margin will decrease by 3db. I'm not sure how the Speedtouch router adjusts the noise margin, but I imagine that evenutally you would want BT's equipment to lower the target.

Hope this helps!

edit: or what Rik said!

[Rik]

Two minds, one thought.

[DerekR]

Update:

Had BT out this morning to fix the dodgy junction box. Noise problems on line are now gone and I am syncing at 6624, a big improvement. Here is a graph of my SNR which is looking a lot better than it was.



HOWEVER Things still seemed really slow so I've just done a BT speedtest and got the following, worrying result...

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 250 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6624 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 207 kbps

250kbps profile??? HELP!!!  any clues???

[Rik]

Time is the only cure, up to 5 days I'm afraid. The work done on the line coupled with your earlier problems have forced the profile low.

[DerekR]

Time is the only cure, up to 5 days I'm afraid. The work done on the line coupled with your earlier problems have forced the profile low.

Cheers Rik, I thought that might be the case but wasn't sure, nice to have an expert's opinion . I guess I can handle 5 days with a low profile, my girlfriend is coming to stay for a few days so probably wont be doing a lot of computer related stuff   

Will it slowly improve over the 5 days or will it just suddenly increase?

All the best to you and any other IDNetters hanging around the boards. Happy New Year!

[Rik]

It will suddenly improve, Derek, to 5500. If you're lucky, it could be in a few hours, but it's more likely to be in the 3-5 day range, providing, of course, you don't have a further low-sync problem. If it's stuck after that, give IDNet a call and they can kick the tyres for you.

A happy New Year to you and yours. May your hangover me a little one.

[MoHux]

............. May your hangover me a little one.

Let's hope that's the only 'little one' you get!!

............. my girlfriend is coming to stay for a few days so probably wont be doing a lot of computer related stuff     

Whatever .......... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!