Speed Question

[Wobbly]

hi guys

IDNet newbie here, migrated over from Pipex on 10th December, came from a 2mb line so this max stuff is all new to me.

Yesterday my speeds were really off all day, I did a few speed tests, heres a couple:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6816 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1213 kbps


Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6464 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 987 kbps

I run on an extension so I checked that, changed the splitters, read up on tweaking and changed my MTU, but it didnt make any difference. I dont know when this started, been away on biz during the week.

but this morning I do a check and

IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6560 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5152 kbps

Router stats (Netgear)

System Up Time 13:39:43
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 17063 23232 0 80 1159 05:52:02
LAN 10M/100M 196959 226400 0 3195 502 13:39:39
WLAN 11M/54M 36254 48614 0 771 81 13:39:30


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6560 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 32 db 9.5 db
Noise Margin 7 db 16 db

The noise margin is higher this morning - usually down at 0 to 2 ?

Sooo, it cant be my end?, just wondered if anybody could guess at what the heck is going on - is the exchange still tweaking my line?

Cheers

[Gary]

Have a karma for a start,  I would expect to see variations in line speed due to bursts of noise etc which can cause issue as you probably have read in the faq as well as exchange work, even Christmas tree lights can cause it. Your noise margin looks better today and since you have been in a ten day training period the line speed and snr will vary as the system determines the most stable speed for your line, make sure you have no ring wire connected as well, thats all covered in the faq, but I would let your line settle down and see what happens, Rik will be along soon and will cast his wisdom over your stats

[Rik]

Hi Wobbly (love the name ), welcome to the forum.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think the problem is at your end - your line is clearly not performing as it should.

Your results this morning are spot on for your sync speed/profile, but it does look as if you may have a target margin of 9db, you can check this by seeing what the margin is immediately after re-booting the router. If this is the case, BT's line management software has increased the figure from the default 6db in an attempt to stabilise your line. Your sync speed is relatively low for your attenuation, so I think an increased target margin is likely. The fact that your three speed tests all have different sync speeds also indicates instability.

You say you are using an extension, is it flat or round? If flat, it's almost certainly picking up noise and adding to your problems. You may also have interleaving turned on, which would act as further restriction.

Enter this in the browser address bar:

http://192.168.0.1/setup.cgi?todo=debug

which should result in a screen which just says 'Debug enable'.
(That's assuming that you haven't changed the router's IP address from the default).

Then exit from the web interface and open a command-line window. Type:

telnet 192.168.0.1

You should get a BusyBox welcome message to confirm that your telnet connection is established.

Now type:

cat proc/avalanche/avsar_modem_stats

In those stats, look for an indication of fast path or interleaving - I can't remember exactly where (we forget so quickly) but it is there.

The variations in speed may be caused by contention at the exchange. IDNet guarantee no contention once you reach their network, but the BT part of the circuit is beyond their control. Even if the exchange is green, at peak times it's possible to see slow downs. However, it could also be caused by crosstalk or noise pickup. What you need to do is eliminate your internal wiring from the issue, and if the problem then persists, contact IDNet and get them to test the line and, if necessary, call out BT for you. Be aware, though, that BT will raise a charge of £160+ if they find that the fault is on your side of the master socket.

As Gary says, removing the ring wire is one of the first steps in this sort of problem, it can have almost miraculous results.

Let us know if we can help further.

[Gary]

The other thing is how long is your extension, the longer it is the more it degrades I think there is a limit to the run you can have possibly 30 meters but Im not positive on that. As Rik said flat wire will act like a giant aerial for interference, you really need cat5 shielded cable for long runs, but its best to avoid them if at all possible. Adsl Max is more sensitive to external issues than the old fixed 2mb line you had so you may have to do some internal adjustments. 

[Inactive]

Welcome Wobbly to the world of IDNet.



Have another welcome Karma.

[Wobbly]

Thanks chaps, very gratefull for you help

My connection is back down to sludge mode now, barely 1mb on speedtest.net

First the testing

I rebooted the router and this is what it said:

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   8128 kbps   448 kbps
Line Attenuation   32 db   9.5 db
Noise Margin   2 db   16 db

2) I did the debug and this is what I got:

usyBox v0.61.pre (2005.11.15-07:43+0000) Built-in shell (ash)
nter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.

cap proc/avalanche/avsar_modem_stats
ap: No such file or directory

cat proc/avalanche/avsar_modem_stats

R7 DSL Modem Statistics:
-------------------------------
DSL Modem Stats]
       US Connection Rate:     448     DS Connection Rate:     8128
       DS Line Attenuation:    32      DS Margin:              6
       US Line Attenuation:    19      US Margin:              16
       US Payload :            120768  DS Payload:             807312
       US Superframe Cnt :     15451   DS Superframe Cnt:      15451
       US Transmit Power :     0       DS Transmit Power:      0
       LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
       Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
       Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
       Trained Path:           0       US Peak Cell Rate:      1056
       Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
       ATUC Vendor Code:       414C4342        ATUC Revision:  1
       Hybrid Selected:        3       Trellis:                1
       Showtime Count:         1       DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 8896 kb
       BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
       Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
       ATUC ghsVid:  0f 00 41 4c 43 42 00 00
       T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
       ATUR ghsVid:  b5 00 54 53 54 43 00 00
       T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

       [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
       CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
       LCD:    0       HEC:    0

       [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
       CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
       LCD:    0       HEC:    0

       [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
       CRC:    1       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
       LCD:    0       HEC:    0

       [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
       CRC:    282     FEC:    0       NCD:    0
       LCD:    0       HEC:    0

ATM Stats]
       [Upstream/TX]
       Good Cell Cnt:  2516
       Idle Cell Cnt:  275018


       [Downstream/RX)]
       Good Cell Cnt:  16819
       Idle Cell Cnt:  5018383
       Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       60
       Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0

SAR AAL5 Stats]
       Tx PDU's:       865
       Rx PDU's:       743
       Tx Total Bytes: 79688
       Rx Total Bytes: 699360
       Tx Total Error Counts:  0
       Rx Total Error Counts:  35


OAM Stats]
       Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
       Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
       Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
       Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
       SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=0


Next thing is to look at my socket re the ring thing

I am in an old house (100 years+), I suspect my external phone lines are a bit old, but I have had the intrenal socket replaced by BT whan we had a problem a few years back

The extension is about 10 metres I suppose - not sure what I am looking for to replace this extension with a better one and where to get it from?

the Mrs has put some Christmas lights up, I turned them off (she hasnt noticed yet) but no diifference

Here is a pic of my socket



What I dont understand is why it was flying at 8am and now its not

Anyway, maybe this will highlight something before I tackle the hardware

cheers

[Rik]

Hi Wobbly

The variations in your noise margin are a source of concern. Although Netgears do tend to vary, you're getting a 4db swing in a short space of time. The stats show that you do, indeed, have interleaving on, though you shouldn't need it for your line, so BT's software has seen enough instability to make the switch. It will be possible to get that turned off, but I don't think there's any point in trying until we solve the instability.

Clearly, you have a pre-NTE5 master, so you can't isolate your internal wiring to look for the source of the problems. How many BT-wired extensions do you have?

Any phone extension you use should be round (these cables use twisted pairs) not flat, but if your socket is only 10m away, could you move the router to the socket and run a long ethernet cable to the computer (ethernet cables can be up to 100m long in any segment, more importantly, on that side of the router, noise pickup is no longer an issue).

Finally, I would say that the variation in speed on a test site are often caused by load on that server. You might get a better picture of what's happening by downloading a large file, eg a Linux distro, and timing it.

[Wobbly]

thanks Rik

We have one BT wired extension upstairs (I presume its BT wired, it looks a proper job, it was here when we moved in 12 years ago). We have 2 cordless phones running off the upstairs extension and 3 on the downstairs, if that would interfere?

I have ordered a proper cable extension as per the spec, if that doesnt work I'll get a longer ethernet - moving the comp nearer atm is not an option wife wise with all the christmassy stuff thats going on

Thanks for the karma as well

[Rik]

The ring wire appears to be connected on the master, it's probably the orange/white wire in your photo, but I'm struggling to make out all the colours. You only need wires connected to terminals 2 & 5, and they should be a pair, eg blue/white and white/blue. Terminal 3 is used for the ring wire, and this should be disconnected at both sockets.

Are the phones DECT, and do you have one or two base units if they are?

[Wobbly]

Rik

better pic of downstairs socket



the downstairs phones are Dect, there is a base and 2 additional handsets

Upstairs,  there is one base station and one additional, I dont think these are dect, it doesnt say so

I turned these off just unplugged them) and no diffrence

I did another speedtest and it was about 350 download, less than upload!

My son is home for Christmas, connected by wifi, got him to turn off his laptop, no diffrence

I need karma, still cant understand why I was 5000 at 8am and now 350

[Rik]

Hi Wobbly

You do appear to have the ring wire connected on terminal 3. Ease this out with a pair of long-nose pliers, both at the master and at the extension socket. That will reduce noise pickup considerably. Take a look also at terminal 4, that may be the incoming exchange pair though - it's almost certainly on the wire at the back in your photo, the one with the brown/white wire.

The only reason that I can see for the varying sync speeds is noise. Have you looked in the Netgear's log for messages about loss of sync. My guess would be you are going to find a bunch of them.

It might be worth downloading Routerstats:

http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm

and running that. The graph will give you a good idea of what's going on.

[Wobbly]

Rik

OK I have d/l the routerstats and will run that for some data

I did a reset on my router so lost the log, but you are right, I have had quite a few loss of synchs when I looked at it before

I'm loath to mess about with the back of the socket atm, I will have to think about that - I have a proper extension cable on order and may wait and see if that helps

Many thanks for your help, greatly appreciated, I have to go out now so will leave the router stats running

[Rik]

Bear in mind that the quality of the line is affected by the ring wire before you install the extension, ie adding a good extension to a noisy circuit will not improve things.

[Lance]

I would really recommend removing the ring wire. It serves no purpose these days, other than to cause problems on ADSL!

[Wobbly]

OK ring wire removed on both sockets

how long should it take to have an effect?

[Lance]

The effect will be immediate. Basically, if it is going to make a difference, you will either see a highed noise margin, or increased sync.

It doesn't always make a difference, but removing it eliminates it. I have seen several reports of massive sync speed gains from removing it in the past.

[Rik]

What Lance said, Wobbly, Any changes to the profile will take the normal 3-5 days though.

[Wobbly]

before ring removed



after

[Wobbly]

 

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/119842442457821012071.html

[Rik]

You can see a re-sync there at 14:57, Wobbly, when the graph drops off the bottom of the page. Also, you have a target noise margin of 9db, so BT does regard you line as unstable, as has started to lift the target margin in an attempt to stabilise it.

The best thing I can suggest at the moment is to de-tune an AM radio, and see if you can identify the source of the noise by walking about with it.

There's not a lot of point in worrying about speed until the stability is resolved, tbh.

[Wobbly]

ok will give that a go

[Sebby]

There's something that causes surges of noise. You'd expect the noise margin to move, but only maybe 0.5-1.0dB every so often. Yours looks a bit too up and down. I think the AM radio suggestion is your best bet at the moment, as the removal of the ring wire hasn't made a great deal of difference, if any.

[Rik]

Wobbly is still using an extension lead which may be implicated, Sebby, but it's really now about trying to find that noise source rather than risk a £160+ bill from BT.

[Sebby]

So he does, Rik. Unless it's cat5, that's going to pick up interference like crazy. Definitely try a shorter cable, Wobbly, even if it's just for a moment to see if that helps.

[Wobbly]

I tried the radio thing, definitely a change in tone next to the downstairs socket, a bit of a change on the upstairs one, only other interfernce change was on the tv

noise margin seems to have decreased, thats bad isnt it?

[MoHux]

Hi Wobbly!

Rik, he hasn't said, .............. Does he have filters on the other extensions (i.e. Phone Base Stns)??

Sky box??

[Wobbly]

yes filters on the phone base units, no sky

[Sebby]

noise margin seems to have decreased, thats bad isnt it?

The noise margin usually decreases at night anyway. I would really recommend ditching the extension wire, even just temporarily to test it out.

[Rik]

Hi Wobbly

Yes, lower noise margin is 'bad', but it happens after dark due to MW radio propagation plus things like street lights, so is normal - providing the router holds sync it isn't a major problem.

If you're picking up noise near your phone sockets, is there any mains wiring nearby?

[Wobbly]

Rik

Hard to tell, the socket is on a kitchen unit at floor level and the cable runs under the unit to the outside then up to a junction box where the upstairs extension comes off, so I doubt its near an electricity supply as thats all on the wall above the units.

Just run a test and its at proper speed, as it was yesterday morning

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5145 kbps

Next door have some Christmas lights on the side of their house, facing my junction box, they are off at the moment, I wonder?

Anyway, I have to leave it all now due to Christmassy stuff. I am really grateful for the help, I'm sure well get this sorted.

When Christmas is over I will try a better extension, if that doesnt work, move the router to the socket and run a cat cable back to the computer, and if that fails, move my computer nearer the point, but thats a last resort due to the way things are here. If its still duff, it will have to be BT.

At least you got me some brownie points by telling me to detach the ring cable, her indoors recons the phones dont "shush" as much now. Downside is she will be using them even more.

thanks again, have a good one

[Wobbly]

hmmmm

had a look outside - we had an extension built earlier this year and the power cable (big black thing) runs over the (white) telephone wire outside (cr*ppy picture - I have coloured in the power cable a bit)

[Sebby]

This is quite a strange one. The results you've just posted from the BT speed tester show you're sync'd at full rate, and even though the profile hasn't caught up with the sync rate yet, your throughput is good. Yet, other times, your throughput is terrible for the same profile.

I'm just thinking if maybe it's the router that's to blame. Usually, I would say that, but... About a year ago, I had a Netgear and it used to sync very high, the SNRM was all over the place (often minus figures) and my throughput was poor, most probably because there was such a huge number of uncorrected errors. I'm just wondering if this is what is happening here. When I replaced my Netgear with a SpeedTouch 585v6, it immediately sync'd lower and the SNRM was solid. Throughput was perfect, too, because the SNRM was respectable.

[Rik]

The power line crossing at right angles should be OK, Wobbly. Follow your plan and see if that helps. If not, Sebby's idea on the router would be a good one to check out, and obviously talk to IDNet.

Enjoy your Christmas.

[Sebby]

I just think that we would expect sync to be lower at night, but from experience Netgears are poor on poor lines. You wouldn't believe it was the line when I connected the SpeedTouch to it. The Netgear was literally all over the place. If it syncs too high and the SNRM is poor, there's going to be a high number of uncorrected errors. I really think a SpeedTouch 585v6 or 2Wire 2700HG, with a shorter/better quality lead, could sort this out.

[Wobbly]

Sebby

thanks for the tip - got back from work - speeds have collapsed , reloaded my old frog and they are still rubbish, but at least thats another thing out of the way!

[Rik]

It has to be noise or a line fault then. Drop IDNet an email and point them at this thread, that will save you having to go through the basics again with them.

[Sebby]

Sebby

thanks for the tip - got back from work - speeds have collapsed , reloaded my old frog and they are still rubbish, but at least thats another thing out of the way!

When you say "speeds have collapsed", has the router resync'd lower, or are you doing a speed test. So far, from what you've posted, your sync seems to be okay, but sometimes the throughput is suffering for no apparent reason.

By the way, the frog is not the thing to use to test if the Netgear is giving you problems. The frog will almost always be worse! I might be able to lend you a 2Wire router in a few weeks if you're interested.

[Wobbly]

OK Rik, will do

Sebby - I did a speedtest and d/l is sub 500k. Thanks for the offer re the router, hopefully it will be sorted by then!

[Sebby]

And what was the actual sync? Still 8128 kbps as it was when you posted earlier? I'm just trying to establish if this is a throughput issue or a sync issue. At the moment, it looks like it's a throughput issue, which I suspect is being caused by a large number of uncorrected errors.

[Rik]

I agree, Sebby, I think there's noise at work - the issue now is to establish whether it's on Wobbly's side of the master or external. Never the easiest task.

[Wobbly]

yes synch is 8128

[Sebby]

Right. I'd really like you to replace that extension cable as, at the moment, I see that as the most likely culprit.

[Rik]

I agree. Until that's eliminated we won't really be able to move forward.

[Wobbly]

its on its way!

[Sebby]

Glad to hear it! 

[MoHux]

I picked up the bit about SWSBO saying the 'shush' had dropped when the ring-wire was removed.  Have you done a quiet-line test at all Wobbles?  When the speed drops would be the time perhaps.
Rik will tell you how, I can't remember the number. (age thing! )

[Rik]

17070, option 2, Mo. I only remember it because I have it programmed into the phone.

[Wobbly]

Morning, been up since 5.30, grandson is staying

After a slow day, speeds recovered in the evening and I got this result last night - the IP profile for my line has risen by 1,000kbps???

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5690 kbps

then tthis morning its flying

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 6028 kbps

Just keeping a record

[Rik]

It looks like the line is recovering, all we need to do now is work out what from. Unfortunately, that's the tricky bit with intermittent noise. What's the weather been like in your area, eg cold, wet or...

[Wobbly]

Mild and wet Rik, I'm in Dorset

[Rik]

Nice county. I wonder whether it's possible that there's been water getting into a cable joint. Keep a note of what the weather has been like immediately before another loss of speed (if there is one).

[Wobbly]

OK, (its chucking it down now, very christmassy)

stats dont look any better, even though its working ok

[Rik]

That graph range is typically Netgear, but the frequency of the noise pulses is not. You seem to get a pulse about every two minutes, which is not normal. Once you have the new extension installed, and can test at the master socket, the resultant graphs will tell us a lot more.

Those noise spikes, though, would be enough to affect your throughout, as there will be a lot of packet re-transmissions during the burst.

[Wobbly]

Response from simon at IDNet

I have run a line check on your service and it is has shown that you are suffering from errors which are probably caused by your line running too fast. It will probably prove to be more stable if we ask BT to increase the noise margin on your line. However, this will decrease the speed at which it can operate. But then stability is usually preferable to a fast and flaky service. Please can you
continue to monitor the situation and if it does not improve please contact when our office is open again next week and we'll take it up with BT for you?

Still waiting for my better extension and a cat5 to come so I can so if the extension has any affect, but the speeds a still all over the place with no pattern - 1 minute its 6 meg, the next.......



Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 81 kbps

[Rik]

That's pretty typical of a noisy line, Wobbly. I had my margin increased from 6 to 9db to improve stability and now I rarely get a drop, and speed is pretty much constant at ~2400k on a 2500k profile.

Sadly, there is always this speed/stability trade off with ADSL. Sort your extension out and see what happens. If things still don't improve, then I would agree with Simon's view myself.

[Wobbly]

Well my cables came



1) is with the old cheapo extension, 2) is with the proper extension, 3) is with router in master socket and long cat5 back to computer, and 4) is back to the proper extension.

Unfortunately the cat5 I bought wasnt quite long enough  so it was a shopping line  so I had to abandon that as my grandson was running around and he would probably have wrecked the lot or garotted himself

anyway, noise margin has improved, up a bit and not bouncing around as much. will see how things go then speak to ID when they are open to reduce the speed a tad

Incidentally I "helped" a guy on the Pipex (my old ISP) ADSLGuide forum who was complaining of speed, found out he had a cheapo extension and told him to plug his router into the socket direct and it sorted his problem. A week a go this was all mumbo jumbo, but I'm learning thanks to you chaps - many thanks

[Rik]

Hi Wobbly

That's an excellent demonstration of just how much noise a poor-quality extension can introduce, thanks for posting it. It looks like you can probably get away with the good extension, if you prefer it that way to having the router at the socket.

Keep us posted.

Incidentally, I know just what you mean about picking up the tricks of the trade, when I first went onto ADSL, I hung around forums reading everything I could. After a while, I found I could answer questions for others. We're all on the same road, just at different points along it.

[TheMonkey]

can i jump in post my stats? hope wobbly doesn't mind? I just wanted to know if they were ok?

thanks guys.

Port      Status      TxPkts      RxPkts      Collisions      Tx B/s      Rx B/s      Up Time
WAN    PPPoA    104    101    0    175    434    00:01:13
LAN    10M/100M    599    818    0    2346    1180    00:01:41

ADSL Link    Downstream    Upstream
Connection Speed    8128 kbps    832 kbps
Line Attenuation    20 db    5.5 db
Noise Margin    12 db    9 db

[Rik]

Let's put it this way, I'd kill for them.

You've got the highest sync possible with some noise margin in hand (an extra 6db). Your line should be consistently fast and very stable.

[Wobbly]

pfft    (wont stay like that though) 




adds pinch of salt

[Rik]

Just shows you how reliable speed testers are, Wobbly. There's one I have used which consistently gives me 200k over my profile. I wish. 

[Inactive]

pfft    (wont stay like that though) 




adds pinch of salt

Mine went over the 7000 mark for the first time ever, must be a glitch in their system...

[Rik]

It's when it goes above 8000 you know you're dreaming, In. Mind you, when ADSL2 launches for you (with 21CN), you should see some incredible speeds.

[Inactive]

My speeds still show up faster than any other provider at DSL Zone, on a like for like basis.. 

I just go there to rub it in.. 

[Rik]

 

Spread the gospel, In. 

[TheMonkey]

thanks rik. did wan to be under achieving