Wiring Fault, advice requested

[hemzy]

Hello, first of all a message to Rik who was extremely helpful to me in December, Idnet resolved my throughput issues by having me disconnected and reconnected; all the evidence pointed to an exchange fault and after the reconnection all was well.

I now have a new problem, about 3 days after my reconnection I started receiving queries from friends about their inability to contact me by phone, long-story-short my phones were not ringing on incoming calls.

I took off the faceplate and plugged directly into the test socket....all was well.

After ringing the BT helpline, they advised me to change my faceplate as there is a hefty call out charge if an engineer attends and finds the fault is my side of the master box.

After a little searching I opted to buy an "adsl nation XTE-2005".

My wiring on the back of the original faceplate was as follows...

2- blue with white patch
3- green with white patch
4- white with green patch
5- white with blue patch

I was a bit uncertain because I understood that 3 and 4 should be orange and white combinations but another thread on the forum stated that this was not always the case and to go by the numbers.

The XTE-2005 didn't have a terminal No4 as it says it is no longer in use

So I connected the terminals as stated with the blue/white in terminal 2 and the white/blue in terminal 5. As terminal 3 was the redundant bell wire I did not connect it.

ADSL was fine, phone was ok ringing out but would not ring on incoming calls. I tried putting the bell wire onto terminal 3 but no change.

So dear Netters, have I made a boo-boo or do I have a potential fault on the BT master box. I am a little suspicious that as it happened within a couple of days after being reconnected to ADSL at the exchange that there may be a problem there, or is that not likely.

I'm not very au-fait with all this stuff as Rik will testify to after helping me with my last problem so please be gentle with me.

Thanks
Hemzy

[Rik]

Hi Hemzy

Glad your original problem got sorted.

If the phone rings when connected to the test socket, there's no BT fault. (Easiest way to test, btw, is to dial 17070 and opt for the ringback test, usually 1). What happens if you connect the phone via a filter to the test socket (or have you already done that?).

Does the phone ring when connected to the front of the faceplate, but not at other sockets, or does it not ring at all? Do you have a different phone you could try?

[hemzy]

Hi Rik, nice to hear from you again.

When the phone is connected to the test socket via a filter, incoming calls cause the phone to ring correctly and ADSL works fine. When I have either the old faceplate or the new faceplate connected with just  the blue/white on terminal 2 and the white/blue on terminal 5 then the phone will not ring but ADSL is stillfine.

Hemzy

[Rik]

Do you have other sockets, or do you only use the master?

[hemzy]

We use the master for the downstairs cordless phone which has a second base unit upstairs in the room where the PC is (where I am typing from now). These are both working ok from the test socket.

We have an older wired phone plugged into a BT installed extension point in the bedroom this has stopped ringing now that the downstairs phone is plugged directly via an adsl filter into the test socket.

[Rik]

So does the cordless phone ring OK from the master socket, as distinct from the test socket?

Have you got a spare filter to hand that you could plug the upstairs phone into? If so, does it then ring OK?

[hemzy]

No, this is the problem Rik, when the cordless is plugged into the master socket it will not ring but it does when plugged into the test socket.
I do have a spare filter, I'll go and plug the wired upstairs phone into it and try it, I also have a spare wired handset I'll try in place of the existing upstairs wired phone.

Before I carry out these tests should I plug back into the master socket?
I'll wait for your reply before doing so because I'll go offline  for a few moments when I unplug.

[Rik]

You'll need the faceplate (master socket) back in place to reconnect the upstairs phone, Hemzy. (If it's working with the faceplate removed, then the fault is with the wiring of the master socket).

At the moment, it sounds like the filtered faceplate might be faulty.

[hemzy]

I'll go and try out the tests you just suggested. I'd be surprised if it was the filtered faceplate because the fault originally occurred with the standard BT faceplate. The new faceplate was an attempt at curing the original fault.

I'll report back shortly

[Rik]

If you can plug the faceplate into the filter that's currently in the test socket, that will save disconnecting ADSL (remember the 10/hour rule), and it will also give a clue as to the fault - if the phones then start ringing, the circuitry in the faceplate is not generating the ring voltage.

[Broadback]

I have used this site, in particular this page when I have been stuck:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Telecoms/Telephone%20Wiring.htm

[Rik]

Useful link, thanks.

[hemzy]

Hi Rik,
Well, I've just about exhausted my tests and my patience, I've tried all the tests and the only combination which works is when I plug into the test socket. Nothing works in either the old or the new master socket whichever way round I plug them in.
I'm wondering if one of the wires (white/blue & blue/white)  has a fault or a break in them as it seems strange that a fault which developed when the original master faceplate was fitted should transfer to the new one I bought; I think it's unlikely to be the new faceplate.

Ive also exhausted my available time right now so I think I may have to consider my options.
I'm loathe to get BT involved as I doubt that it is their equipment at fault, on the other hand if I delve too deeply myself I could end up making things worse.

[Rik]

Hi Hemzy

It is an odd fault, and it's not going to be straightforward to track.

Were you able to connect the faceplate (either one) to the filter in the test socket and get a ring?

What happens if you try with the faceplate which is not currently connected to the internal wiring?

Was the upstairs phone working when you had the faceplate unplugged and were connecting the downstairs phone via a microfilter to the test socket?

[hemzy]

It is an odd fault, and it's not going to be straightforward to track.

Were you able to connect the faceplate (either one) to the filter in the test socket and get a ring?
Answer...no

What happens if you try with the faceplate which is not currently connected to the internal wiring?
Answer...no

Was the upstairs phone working when you had the faceplate unplugged and were connecting the downstairs phone via a microfilter to the test socket?...Answer...no

I seem to be at a dead end with this; I do have a multimeter available, do you happen to know if there are any specific voltages I should be registering on the two wires?

[Rik]

From memory, one side of the exchange pair is at -46V DC, the other is at earth. The ring voltage is higher, somewhere around 80V I think.

The tests were to try and eliminate possible wiring oddities. If the upstairs phone was working with the faceplate disconnected, then it was wired from the back of the master. Clearly that's not the case. As both faceplates have failed, I would have thought there was a fault in the wiring to the extension, eg a partial short. However, that shouldn't have stopped the unconnected faceplate from working normally.

Can you photograph the back of the faceplate and the bit of the master socket on the wall?

[hemzy]

I will take a photo and post it for you, unfortunately it will have to be tomorrow as I am now out of time. Thanks for all your support Rik, have a good evening and I hope to be in touch tomorrow.

Cheers

[Rik]

OK, I'll be here.

[Simon]

OK, I'll be here.

Where else? 

[Rik]

I was thinking of my favourite moor, just outside the family seat - but it's a heck of a drive for a quick stroll.

Can you see anything I've missed with Hemzy?

[Simon]

Can you see anything I've missed with Hemzy?

I have no other suggestions, Rik.  Sorry.

[Rik]

That's about where I'm at. It's a weird fault, but unfortunately, it's also on Hemzy's side of the test socket.

[Rik]

It could be the ring wire, except the ring doesn't work at the faceplate either. At the moment, my money is on a wiring fault draining the ring capacitor.

[Simon]

Have we established that the line is 'live', and it's just the ringer that's not working?  Could it be anything to do with the ring wire, often mentioned on here?

[Simon]

Sorry, we're treading on each other's toes.

[Rik]

The line is live and the phone rings if plugged into a filter connected to the test socket. Once the faceplate is in place, though, the phone no longer rings. It can't be that the extension is wired to the back of the master as that is disconnected once the faceplate is removed. The fault started before Hemzy fitted a filtered faceplate, so that seems to leave the wiring. The ring wire only carries the signal to the extension, not to the faceplate, so it can't be the lack of that. I think... 

My toes didn't feel a thing - it's just good to bounce thoughts off you to see whether I've missed the blindingly obvious.

[Sebby]

Having read through this thread, I can't think what it could possibly be. Rik's suggested everything I could think of and more. My only suggestion is to maybe post in the technical section over at Think Broadband as there are some very techy guys there.

[Rik]

Thanks, Sebby. As I say, the more eyes the better for this one.

[Simon]

Once the faceplate is in place, though, the phone no longer rings.

Right, so doesn't that suggest that the faceplate is somehow stopping the ring?  Is the ring wire connected to the faceplate, or could the faceplate be causing some sort of short circuit?

[Rik]

What I want to check with Hemzy is what happens if he connects the faceplate, but with no wiring. If that rings, the fault is in his wiring - probably a partial short somewhere which allows the ring current to drain, but not so bad as to stop the voice working. OTOH, if both faceplates stop the ring tone with no wiring, then I am stumped, as the likelihood of two faulty plates is very slim. The other issue would be how the wires at the extension are connected.

[Sebby]

Thanks, Sebby. As I say, the more eyes the better for this one.

Indeed. It's not for one minute that I think you won't be able to sort it, Rik.

[Lance]

Could he disconnect the extension wiring from the back of the faceplate so that the extension is completely disconnected from the circut. Once this is done, try the phone. If the then still doesn't work for either faceplate, surely the wiring before the faceplate, and therefore BT's is to blame?

Sorry if this has been suggested, i only quickly read through!

[Adam]

surely the wiring before the faceplate, and therefore BT's is to blame?

As it works at the test socket I doubt it's a problem with the BT side of cabling, perhaps the NTE5 could be broken though.

[Lance]

Good point adam, i forgot it all worked it the test socket!

[Sebby]

As it works at the test socket I doubt it's a problem with the BT side of cabling, perhaps the NTE5 could be broken though.

That's a point, it could well be the NTE5 itself.

[Adam]

That's a point, it could well be the NTE5 itself.

It sounds like it could be, though I think he has tried two faceplates. I believe faults with the termination device itself fall under BT maintenance.

[Rik]

Except... The working circuitry of the master is on the BT side of the test socket, ie it's connected when using the test socket. The only function of a conventional faceplate is to plug into the test socket and convey the circuit to the front panel socket and any wires connected to the faceplate for extensions. So, basically, we come back to the issue of the ring working at the test socket.

If Hemzy can try one or both of the faceplates with no wires attached, and the ring then works at the master socket, then it has to be the wiring or the remote extension.

[hemzy]

Good afternoon Rik and other fellow Netters.
Wow, I seem to have started something with this. I want to express my appreciation to all of you for trying to help out.

OK, here is the latest sitrep.

At Rik's request I have taken a couple of pics of my phone point and I will put them here for you to look at. I'm not convinced they will tell you much, as you will see, the blue/white is on terminal 2 and the white/blue on terminal 5.

The green/white and white/green which used to be on 3 and 4 are visible but not connected.

Now please hear this, this is how the wiring was configured before the fault appeared.

Essentially, the fault boils down to a loss of ringing when the master plate was fitted. When I removed the plate and plugged directly into the test point then the fault went away except that my extension is now dead. I believe this suggests the fault has to be mine and not BT's.

I have been reading through the previous threads and will go and try Rik's experiment whereby I disconnect the wired completely from the back of the master plate, plug it in and see if the phone rings. In the meantime here are the two pictures attached (I hope)


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Hi Hemzy

That wiring certainly looks OK, though i would suggest putting a piece of insulation tape over the end of the unused green/white pair.

If you can try the 'blank' faceplate, it's about the one diagnostic left without special equipment. If your phone then rings, it has to be the extension wiring and/or the remote socket. If it still doesn't, and the same applies to both faceplates, it would suggest either faulty faceplates, but the odds on getting two of those seems very small, or a faulty master socket, which is not generating the necessary ring current. You could test for that by plugging the filter into a faceplate - if the phone then starts ringing, it's the circuitry on the back of the master which is faulty. The good news there is that it's down to BT to fix.

[hemzy]

Hi Rik, thanks for the reply.

OK, I think we've now identified the nature of the fault.

I plugged the unwired master plates into the test socket and the phones rang as they should do.

I guess that proves it is a wiring problem on the extension. I agree that it would be stretching coincidence to believe that a new faceplate should arrive with the same fault as the old one.

I'll have to weigh up my options now. Either get in an electrician/engineer to track and remedy the fault in the wiring. Alternatively, it may be simpler to tape off and discontinue using the extension and instead simply buy an additional cordless base station; they aren't expensive and they are readily available. The only reason we have stuck with the wired extension was because it was there to be used but a cordless unit would be a simple fix.

do you have any further thoughts?

[Rik]

It would be worth trying the extension with the other pair, and/or disconnecting the wires at the far end, with them connected at the master. If it works with the switched pair, then the pair itself is faulty, if it works with the remote socket disconnected, then the problem is in that.

If you're using DECT, you won't need another base unit, just a handset should do.

[hemzy]

Hi Rik,

My apologies, I said base unit and gave the wrong impression. I didn't mean the main base unit, just the stand with the built in battery charger for the handset. I'll possibly go for the extra handset option for the meantime and explore the possibility of getting the extension sorted at a later date.

In the meantime, I'd like to again express my sincere appreciation to you and all the fellow forum members for taking the time and trouble to bring your expertise to bear on my problem.

Many thanks to all.

Hemzy

[Rik]

Glad to help, Hemzy. At least we got an answer - the ones which are frustrating are the ones where we just can't find the fault.

[Lance]

Glad you are someway to sorting it, Hemzy.

[Sebby]

I'm glad you found the fault in the end, Hemzy. 

[g7pkf]

Sorry just picked up on this thread and yes i am a telephone engineer.

after reading it it "sounds" like the wiring to the extension is wrong-or the extension socket is another master socket (overloading the line as it has another resistor and capacitor on it).

take the extension apart and check the wiring.

the site previously stated http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Telecoms/Telephone%20Wiring.htm


shows the correct wiring. you could find the extension was not installed by someone who knows what they are doing and used the wrong pair's if a capacitor and resistor (and possibly surge arrestor are present in the extension) remove the capacitor and resistor (cut them out) you can leave the surge arrestor in as it makes no real differance.

Hope that helps sorry if i mis-read some of the thread...

[Den]

On your diagrams you are showing the ringer wire still connected through to the slave sockets which is not in line with the advice we have received and give out to folk who have speed problems. Are you sure that this is correct or is this the reason your speed is down. 

[g7pkf]

Don't talk to me about speed

Luckily i am in telehouse weekly and get 25-30MB up and down from there. so when i need a new iso i don't download from home.

And yest you are quite correct the ring wire should not be connected unless required.

sadly i collect "old phones" that need the ring wire so i have my own pbx (2 actually) in my house

***not sad-just a hobby***

[Broadback]

It may simply be your extension telephone. You may have tried this, I must admit there are so many replies now that it is hard for an old chap like me to follow them  I had an odd fault on my line, asked BT for help.  First thing they asked was that I unplugged all telephones then plugged each one back in one at a time, no problems. The next step was telephone A and B, then A and C etc.  It turned out that one of my extension phones was the cause, so I binned it and bought another.  Lets face it they are cheap.

[Adam]

sadly i collect "old phones" that need the ring wire so i have my own pbx (2 actually) in my house

The latest NTE5 has a ring wire filter, I wonder if that would be any use in your case?

[Rik]

It may simply be your extension telephone.

It's the wiring to the extension which seems to cause the problem, I'm guessing that there's a partial short that drains the ring current.