frustration with BT's IP profile

[krysia]

I know that BT's IP profile is meant to establish the maximum stable connection speed, but in reality it seems to me a way of preventing viable speeds being reached.  Before I joined IDNet, I was on the F2S LLU, where my throughput was consistently 83% of my sync speed, which was higher in the day than in the evening.  I usually got daytime speeds of about 4.1 and evening speeds of about 3.5.  Now with IDNet, my sync speeds are even higher than they were with F2S but my connection is slower:  because my sync speed drops in the evening, my profile is usually 3500, sometimes 4000, so my daytime connection speed is only about 3.1, sometimes going up to 3.7.  Yet my daytime sync speeds are always over 5000 and sometimes closer to 6000.  I know my line can maintain a faster connection speed because of the LLU experience (and BT's checker itself predicts 5.5 on my line).

I don't understand why the evening drop in sync speed should determine the connection speed during the day.  Why doesn't BT configure my download speed at 4500/5000?  Then when the sync speed drops in the evening, the connection speed will also drop - where's the problem in that?  It's not as if the connection will try to run higher than the current sync speed.  I'd feel less frustrated if someone can explain how and why the cap is necessary/useful, as there's no loss of connection when my sync speed changes each evening, so stability doesn't seem to be the issue.

[Rik]

Are you using a router or a modem, Krysia?

TBH, the profiles are a totally unnecessary concept, there for the convenience of BT, and not for technical reasons. Their sole role is to maintain stability in the system and, thus, reduce the amount of processing power that BT need to run the service. LLU providers don't generally use them, they allow the line to run as fast as it can.

[krysia]

Thanks, Rik - I'm glad I'm not alone in finding the profile unnecessary and limiting.  I use a router, and in fact the Billion one I have allows me to increase the sync speeds if I want to by adjusting the coding gain.  But I've found that doing that can cause some instability, so now I leave the coding gain on auto.  What's frustrating about the BT profile is that keeping the setting on auto, I'm now getting higher sync speeds with IDNet than I did using the maximum coding gain (7) with F2S.  So I know technically IDNet is giving me a much faster connection, but BT is preventing me from accessing it.  (By the way, thanks for the advice in the other thread about ADSLNation filters - I have them now, and they've also improved sync speed!)

[Rik]

Hi Krysia

One thing which might be worth trying, if you're sure your internal phone wiring is not adding to the noise on your line, is a 2700 router. Most members are reporting improved sync speed and stability with them, so it might just bump your profile up (I gained 500kbps).

[krysia]

Thanks for the tip, Rik, but I'm pretty happy with the Billion.  I sometimes use a VOIP phone, and I can plug a conventional handset right into the router; I also like the fact I can play with the coding gain if I want to.  But if this one starts to fail, I'll certainly look into the 2700 - who makes it?

[Rik]

It's made by a US firm, Krysia, called 2 Wire, which confused the hell out of me when I first saw references to a 2 Wire router.

It's only available on eBay or similar sites, not through retail channels. The going price at the moment seems to be around £20.

[Sebby]

Hi Krysia. You're certainly not alone! The profile system is a pain, especially for those that are so close to the next profile up. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that.

As Rik suggests, you may be able to improve your internal wiring such that it reduces noise a little and allows you to sync higher. Night time is generally the noisiest, which is why you see your router losing sync. However, believe it or not, a new router can sort this out, and many people here have taken that route and succeeded. The 2Wire Rik suggests is by far the best out there in my experience.

But if you're happy with your current router, which is understandable, I'd say definitely take a look at your internal wiring. Do you use microfilters and plug the router into an extension? If so, removing the ring wire (usually orange in colour, and connected to terminal 3) in each socket will almost certainly reduce noise, thus increasing sync. This wire is not generally needed these days.

If you have a NTE5 master socket and can viably site your router at this socket, you can fit a filtered faceplate (then you don't need to worry about removing the ring wire) such as the ADSL Nation XTE-2005. This is usually the most effective solution.

I hope this helps.

[krysia]

Hi Sebby.  Thanks for your very helpful reply.  I'd always assumed that since noise isn't a problem during the day, my internal wiring was okay, so I was interested in your tip about the ring wire.  I've just had a look at one of my phone sockets (I have 5), and there are two wires connected to terminal 3:  one white and one orange.  Is it just the orange one that should be removed?  And how do I remove it?  It's in very tightly, and I was afraid I'd break the plug if I tugged at it any harder.  Is it enough to just snip it and leave it in place, or does that not solve the noise problem?  Also, is there any potential danger in removing it?  You said it's 'generally' not needed these days, but are there cases where they are?  (It's not the wire that makes the phones ring, is it?)

My phone set-up is complicated, and none of the sockets look different from each other - I don't think there's a master socket, if that's possible.  My original line is a BT one with 3 extensions.  When I used dial-up, I got a second line via NTL cable with two extensions.  Then when I got broadband, I cancelled the NTL line and got an independent engineer to add the NTL cabling to the BT line.  The router is plugged into an extension in the study where my desktop is (I know the engineer changed this socket, but it looks the same as the others); the other NTL socket comes between it and where the wire is joined to the BT line (if that makes sense!).  I use ADSLNation XF-1E microfilters on all 5 extensions.

Where the BT wire comes into the house, it's attached to a little oblong box about 1 1/2" by 3" - I don't know if it's worth replacing that with something else.  TBH, I don't really need more speed, as I don't play games, but I do occasionally watch video and download speech files.  It's more that I'm so pleased with the IDNet service that I resent BT for cramping its style with their IP profiles (and it seems to be sod's law that I can have a high solid sync rate for 3 days, move up to the next profile, and then have an uncharacteristically lower dip than usual in my evening sync speed, and then get stuck in the lower profile for the next 3 days, during which my sync is consistently high again)!

[Rik]

Hi Krysia

In broadband terms, your wiring sounds like a nightmare and is almost certainly to blame for your speed drops.

The ring wire is connected to terminal three. Although usually orange/white, it can be any colour. It's not uncommon to find the the orange/white and white/orange pair have both been used for example. They should just lift out from the connectors if you use a pair of long-nosed pliers, but if you have problems, snipping them off will work just as well. This needs to be done at all sockets. Make sure that your curl the wires up neatly out of the way, preferably putting a piece of insulating tape over the ends.

Modern phones do not generally need a ring current, and if they do, it's provided by the micro-filter anyway.

From what your describe, it's entirely possible that you have multiple masters iac. Would it be possible for you to photograph each socket and post the results?

[Broadback]

Hi Krysia, that wiring sounds a real mish mash, whether or not it is causing you noise problems is impossible to say.  I would not advice cutting any wires on spec, unless you are able to reconnect them, as you cannot be sure what effect it will have on your phone system.  As regards the 2700 router, my own experience is that it has upped my speed from high 3m to high 4m, sometimes just reaching 5m.  I paid a bit more for mine from Dave at patioheater@ruralinternet.co.uk, being rather inexperienced in these matters.  I must say that to me the extra money was worth it as he helped me on the phone to get it going.  It should not have been a problem, just my ignorance.

[krysia]

Thank you both!  No, I'm afraid I haven't got a digital camera, so can't do the photos.  The ring wires are really clamped very tightly in place (the socket I checked is pretty old, already in the house when we moved in in 1986).  From what you both say, I think I'm getting pretty good speeds considering my wiring:  the BT checker said I could get around 5/5.5 Mbs, and I'm not that far off.

[Sebby]

As others have said, the wiring sounds like it's a mess and is most likely causing problems. You mention that you don't have a NTE5 master socket, and indeed depending on when the line was installed you won't necessarily have one. I've read that many people have managed to get BT to fit a NTE5 for free by saying that they want to fit more extensions, because if you have these old-style sockets, then you're not allowed to tamper with them. I think that's worth a try; you've got nothing to lose.

It would be useful if you could get some pictures; perhaps you could borrow a digital camera?

[Rik]

It would be useful if you could get some pictures; perhaps you could borrow a digital camera?

Even a phone camera would give us a few clues.

[krysia]

I'm obviously a Luddite - no camera phone either!  Thanks for the info about the old sockets - maybe that's why the orange wire didn't seem budge-able.  If I did manage to get a master socket fitted, presumably that would be down in the hallway where the wire comes in and before it gets to the first extension?  In that case, it wouldn't do me much good, as I cable my computer to the router, and that's upstairs.

I should stress that my connection is very stable - I never lose it.  It's just that my sync speed drops in the evening, which I gather is pretty normal.  During the past few days, my SNR margin has increased, which means the evening drop in speed has been pretty insignificant.

[Rik]

The thing about getting an NTE5 is that it makes it easy for you to eliminate your internal wiring from the equation (or to confirm that it is the cause of the problem).

I wouldn't say that a drop in sync speed is normal of an evening unless you are powering down the router during the day. Generally, you will get a lower sync speed of an evening compared to, say, the morning, but your router shouldn't normally re-sync each evening.

[Sebby]

Yep, degradation at night is normal, and if it's not causing any problems (e.g. dropped connections or poor throughput) then it's nothing to worry about. What you can do is sync at night time, and that way the SNRM will be better than the target in the day, and will not drop below the target at night. That's what I do.