Clueless goes wireless. Hopefully.

[Vali]

Hello everyone. I'm a new member here so will try not to monopolise everyone's time!

I have been "steered" towards this forum because of the 2700 wireless router.
I was steered towards the router because our household is looking to go wireless for the first time.
We have been steered towards going wireless because we are told it should -- should -- be better (or cannot be worse) than our current ADSL Speedtouch 330 modem set-up.

We are on BT Total Broadband Option 1. We pay £18 per month for "up to 8Mb download speeds". However, BT rates our line at 500kbps. We are four miles from the exchange. Our "best performance" is in my sig. (Hopefully I've done that bit correctly.) Our BT Broadband contract comes to an end in June this year and we have been steered towards ID.net because a friend said it is "by far and away" the best ISP and as soon as we can quit BT Internet, we should sign up here.

That sort of sums up the basic background.

As to going wireless -- about which we haven't a clue, and this despite trying to read up on everything we can find on the Internet -- it seems that we should tread carefully (!) because of our distance from the exchange, and because our current stats are:

Receive Attenuation dB = 60.    ReceiveMargin dB = 10.  Send Attenuation dB = 31. SendMargin dB =7.

Neither hubby or I understand these stats other than that they do not point to the world's best broadband.

We have three computers in our 3-storey home. My husband's Dell desktop, and my son's HP Media Centre desktop, are on the top floor. Both computers are three or four years old. Neither are wireless enabled.

We have also newly acquired a Dell laptop. This is used on the ground floor, dining room table, or kitchen table. It seems to have come with built-in everything, wi-fi, Bluetooth, fax/modem, etc.

I should like to start using our new laptop on the 'Net but am reluctant to connect up to a wired modem. Also, we already experience difficulties when OH is on the 'Net and my son can't then get on. And vice versa.

BT would like us to have something called a "Home Hub". However -- hence this post! -- a friend-who-seems-to-know about these things says the "hub" which BT provides its business customers, though not its domestic customers like us, would be far more suitable in view of our poor quality connection / distance from BT exchange. So. . . we should look into purchasing a 2700 HGV.

Sadly, our friend lives 350 miles away, so can't pop round to help. And none of us have even so much as opened up a computer to see what it looks like inside. We are not "tecchies", though would very much like to learn. . !  My question (finally!) is this, or these:

1) What would you advise, bearing in mind we are complete novices?

2) Would we as BT domestic users have a connection problem if we purchased a wireless router  intended for a BT business user?

3) In addition to the router, do we also need to purchase two USB wireless sticks (or whatever they are called!) to place in the desktop PCs upstairs?

Help would be appreciated.

I do wish we had never renewed our BT Broadband "contract" but it was done underhand by BT (a salesperson repeatedly rang us out of the blue last June, never mentioned a word about our 'contract', offered us a free wireless router for our 'loyalty' -- we turned it down, we didn't understand anything about wireless -- and then next thing, we find we're locked into BR for another 12 months.)

So we're finishing with BT this June regardless, and look forward to coming over to IDNet.


 

[Rik]

Hi Vali

Welcome to the forum, have a karma.  

Lots of questions I'm afraid:

What sort of age is your house, eg post 1960s, pre 1960s, Victorian etc? The construction of the building will influence how effective wireless will be for you.

Where will the router be located?

How many extension sockets do you have, and do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom part of the faceplate can be removed. Take a look at the FAQ here, which has a picture of the NTE5 at the bottom. It would be worth reading through that FAQ anyway, because I suspect your internal wiring is not as good as it might be, to judge by your upstream noise margin.

It may well be that you would be best served by using a mixture or wired and wireless connections, particularly if two of the machines are on the same floor. Another possibility is to use something like the Devolo mains networking devices, but we can get to that later.

It's important to understand that the wireless side of things has nothing to do with your distance from the exchange. The router's modem talks to the exchange in the same way that your Speedtouch does now. The difference is that it then talks to multiple computers rather than just one, but the BT-facing side of it operates just the same way as the frog, though generally rather better.

I recently switched to a 2700HGV router from a Netgear, and can say that it is easily the best router I have ever used. So far, I have gained an extra 500k on my profile, and it looks like I'm about to gain an extra 500k, thus moving from 2000 to 3000. The wireless signal seems better than that I obtained from the Netgear and, as I have the SBC firmware model, I could even turn it up if I wanted to, albeit not legally.

You would have no problem using it with any ISP. If you get one with SBC firmware, you need do no more, if you get one with BT firmware, there's a simple trick to get it working (more accurately, to keep it working).

You would need to buy wireless cards or USB devices for your upstairs computers, which is why I would think about running cables for those, it's cheaper, faster and more secure.

We can walk your through this step-by-step though and, although it looks daunting at the moment, it really isn't - a router is easier to use than a frog.

AAMOI, if you didn't take up the 'free' offer from BT, how did your contract get extended?

[Vali]

Hello Rik! Well, I don't know what to say, it's so good of you to respond so quickly and fully.

To answer things in order:

1) Townhouse, 3-storey. Built 2005. We moved in, in January 2006 as first owners.

2) Router location. Hmm. I know this sounds stupid, but. . . we don't know! (What I mean is, we didn't know if it could be plugged in anywhere -- the 2nd floor lounge would have been fine -- or if it had to be permanently linked to a desktop in hubby's top floor study. Or our son's adjacent top-floor bedroom.)

3) Yes, we have a BT master socket of the kind you describe. It's in our integral garage. Unfortunately, it is very close to the up-and-over door and a long way (relatively speaking) from the rest of the house. Quite cold in there too, though I don't suppose that has any bearing!

4) Extension sockets. 1 kitchen, 2 lounge, 1 in each bedroom and bedroom/study. Total: 5 sockets. They all have ADSL filters installed.

5) When we first moved in we had severe phone / broadband connection difficulties and finally a BT engineer came out. We were warned that if the problem was in "our" wiring, then we would be liable for a charge. The BT engineer then tested every socket. He said he was surprised there were so many of them (?) and that they might be the cause of the problem. However, after checking / testing each one, he said they were all functioning perfectly and that no, there was no problem with our internal wiring. It was later discovered (three days later, on a revisit by a second engineer) that the line problem was down to something called a BT Cabinet, half a mile from our property. (??)

6) Oh, the contract! I blame hubby for this but he was distracted at the time (!) The BT saleslady never mentioned a "contract" (obviously, we must have been coming to the end of our second year with BT) but nattered on about our "loyalty" and would we like this free wireless router?

Hubby said no, because we knew nothing about wireless and hadn't the time to learn because only a few days' later we were going away for two months.

It should have occurred to him that no company goes around offering things for free ("in recognition of your loyalty"). But as we weren't thinking of changing ISPs, it didn't really matter. What annoyed us both was the subsequent email from BT confirming that we were on contract for another 12 months -- our fault, I know, but we decided there and then that this would be the last time we locked ourselves into any contract of such duration.)

Oh dear. What a long post. Sorry!

[Rik]

Hi Vali

1) Construction shouldn't be an undue problem as regards wireless, then - it can bit difficult with older houses, particularly those with stone walls. However, it will be a case of install the router and find out. If you're anywhere near me, I can lend you one to try.

2) Ideally, I'd locate the router on the top floor and run ethernet cables to the two machines there. Does that sound feasible to you?

3) Builders seem to like doing that, making it useless for test purposes. What would be handy is if you could take the notebook out there, and connect to the test socket behind the faceplate. If the figures are significantly better than normal, it would point the finger at your internal wiring.

4) If you don't need them all, removing the surplus ones could improve things, but try the test at (3) first.

5) The cabinet is one of those green boxes you see at the side of the road. BT use them to joing the local cabling to the exchange. The fact that the engineer said there was no problem with your wiring doesn't mean that it isn't causing a problem, just that it was all working. It could still be adding to the noise on your line and inhibiting the speed. The test at (3) will establish whether this is the case.

6) I'm still puzzled, if you didn't take the offer, how did you come to be tied in further. I think that contract extension my be invalid legally.

If you think your post is long, you should read some of mine.

[Vali]

Hi Rik -- back again.

Actually I'm in the middle of reading all the FAQ print outs you kindly llinked me too, I have eight pages even after changing the font / size from my usual Times 12pt! It's fascinating and when I have re-read everything for the twelfth time I know I'll be an expert (?!)

Right, anyway: 1) Yes, you're correct. No stone walls! It's new build.

1a) Lovely gesture re the loan. We're a lo-o-n-g way from anywhere, or so it feels. If I look out the window I can almost see Hadrian's Wall. (Will that interefere with reception? Those Romans.)

2) Sadly I think hubby would have to drill the walls (the Lord help us all, I fear for the damage arising) as there is no way otherwise of linking up with the ethernet cable, his study is at the back, our son's is at the front, his PC is next to the back window, son's is next to the front window, and there's quite some distance between. Unfortunately. I suppose that's one of the reasons why the wireless 'concept' (which as you can see, we don't understand) appealed, sticking in a USB-thing (receiver?) into the PC and sort of forgetting about it. Well. So much for the theory.

3) I am wondering (now that I have read at least some of the FAQs!) if our present problems have something to do with the way hubby's Speedtouch is connected, because the phone socket is at the far side of the room at a distance of at least 12ft from his computer's USB port. We didn't have a "lead" long enough to stretch that far and so the first (!) lead runs from the socket/filter to a BT connector-thing, and that connector-thing then runs around to the Speedtouch modem on the floor under the desk. That said though. . . our son's Speedtouch modem connects with just one lead to the socket in his room, a distance of only 6ft or so, and he says he doesn't get a good broadband service, though hubby hasn't tested because we're banned from entry. . . !

4) I haven't connected "my" new laptop to anything yet because I thought it might be better to "go wireless" from the off with it.  If you think it's a good idea I'll ask hubby when he's back to do whatever is necessary to set up a broadband connection.

5) Yes. Well, we're puzzled, too. Which is why we regard it as very underhand. Unfortunately we weren't back until early September and read our BT email advising of our "new" contract from late June. We decided not to bother arguing, just quit BT this coming June instead. Hubby's absolutely certain the saleslady never mentioned anything about a contract, all she said was "are you as loyal customers happy with BT Broadband" and because he was in a rush, he just said "yes" to get rid of her. . .

[Rik]

Hi Vali

If you get all the way through the FAQ, we award a medal.

You'll be OK with Hadrian's Wall (nice part of the country ), the Roman's didn't know anough about ADSL to interfere with it.

2) If cabling isn't an option, experiment with the placing of the router, starting with the lounge, so that it's roughly in the middle of the house.

3) Is the extension cable flat or round? Flat ones are bad news for ADSL. As to the ban, I think you're going to have to declare a DMZ on your son's room as part of the setup process.

4) If you set the lappy up with the Speedtocuh drivers and connectoid, you can then use the test socket to establish what, if any, detrimental effect the internal wiring is having. If it's significiant, it might be worth thinking about ways to improve things. (I'm thinking of a filtered face plate and a Cat5 cable run to the router.)

5) I'd be inclined to challenge the new contract, and ask BT to show you what evidence they have that you agreed to it. Of course, I'm keen to get you over to IDNet, but only because you'll get much better service and support here.

[Vali]

Rik: I think you are the one who deserves a medal. I really am taking up a lot of your time!

1. Reassuring news about the Romans. They did know a thing or two about routes if not routers!

2. Clairvoyance on your part (another medal for that, then!) where hubby's extension cabling is concerned, there is a round, black, lead running from the socket to the plastic junction thing, but then running from the other side of that is a white, flat lead that goes into the Speedtouch modem.

2b. I know this isn't strictly related to my original question(s) but in view of your point about 'flat' leads with ADSL, I am now wondering if tomorrow we should go to Comet or Pc World and see if they have a suitably long, round, connecting lead that will plug into the phone socket at one end and the modem at the other, thus doing away with the present round+flat leads + BT connector-thing. In fact, the more I think about it, the more the advice you've given suggests that hubby's connection set-up is wrong!

3. Filtered face plate, I haven't got as far as that in the FAQ. Cat5 oh dear. We have a cat but I don't think you mean connecting him up with 5 leads.

4. I know this sounds like cowardice but to be honest, all our experiences with BT in the past have been long drawn out and time consuming and ultimately, depressing. Hubby has stopped bothering with what passes for "support" because it just isn't helpful.

We have always been prepared to accept that (a) we know nothing and (b) can certainly be at fault but constructive support in light of that has never been forthcoming.

(For example, hubby has asked on several occasions why, virtually every day of the week, our "Speedtouch Connection Speed" (which I'm beginning to appreciate, doesn't actually mean that much!) shows 1.0 Mbps, or 1.1 Mbps, up until 4.45pm or 5pm, at which time the connection is always lost and when we reconnect it is always 768kbps. BT Support say it's our equipment. Seems to us we have some very strange equipment if it performs, or rather fails to perform, with absolute predictability every single day at precisely the same time period, every single day.)

It would be wonderful to quit BT right now but the cost / hassle / arguments involved are likely to be insufferable, which presumably is what BT counted on with their underhand "re-contract" trick last June.

Anyway. . . I am taking up so-oo much of the forum's space and your time here, so apologies! But it and yourself have been godsend, I have just clicked on links in other threads to eBay and seen "locked" and "unlocked" routers of the type you recommend, so I at least have an idea of what these things actually look like -- though still not sure about which version we should get (yes, the middle of the house, where the lounge is, would certainly be convenient for us, assuming (?) that from there it would "beam", or whatever it does, to the two desktops on the floor above and the wi-fi laptop on the floor below.)

Oh dear. Another ramble!

[Rik]

Hi Vali

Don't worry about taking up my time, it's what I'm here for. Never forget either, that there are many people reading this forum who would like to ask the questions you have, but haven't got around to it, so lots of people will benefit from this thread.

2) Phone cables use twisted pairs to reduce noise pickup. Standard phone wiring meets the CW1308 specification. Cat5, shorthand for category 5, is the cable used for ethernet cables (Cat6 is even better) and this uses a higher quality cable, usually shielded and always twisted more tightly than CW1308. The twisting works by inverting the phase of the noise picked up on each leg of the pair, thus it gets cancelled out (a similar principle is used in noise cancelling headphones, hands-free kits etc). You would definitely do better to change the setup with your husband's wiring - you can pick up extension kits at B&Q which use CW1308 cable if there's one nearby.

3) A filtered face-plate separates the ADSL signal from the voice signal at the master socket, thus eliminating any noise pickup at a stroke. If your figures improve dramatically when you connect to the test socket, then this method would almost certainly pay dividends.

4) For BT to have extended your contract would have required some consideration to you, eg the router. As you declined this, any extension would probably fall foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act. I'd seriously question whether BT could hold you to it.

As to the speeds, you are showing classical night time ADSL interference. Because ADSL operates on the same frequencies as AM radio, it is more susceptible to interference at nights, hence the lower sync speeds. Unfortunately, these lower speeds inhibit your connection at all times due to the profile system which BT operates (regardless of ISP).

Try the test at the master socket, and let me know how the figures look there. Then we can plot which is going to be the most effective path for you.

The locked/unlocked versions of the 2700 are not significant. We can explain how to unlock them if you do get a locked one. It takes a couple of minutes.



Edit: Too many typos.

[Vali]

Gosh! Off out to B&Q now!

I'll get hubby to sort out the laptop connection and then plug into the BT master socket next week, we're away tomorrow and he's out today so the only really technical thing I can do is use the Hoover. . .

Thank you again for all the help -- tremendous!

I'll just have to keep posting on other threads so as to qualify to be a hander-out of karmas. . .

[Rik]

That test socket result will be revealing. Make a not of the downstream sync speed and noise margin with your normal connection positions, then check how it compares with the test socket. If the latter is significantly better, then your wiring is having an impact and there are things that can be done to improve the situation.

Happy Hoovering...

[Vali]

Connection log update (hope this makes sense.) Rather than writing everything down we have been taking screen shots every time and then renaming them with the time and date so that we know where we are. The first set of results relate to the connection between the desktop upstairs and wall socket using the new connection lead.

Saturday January 19th: Purchase new 10m 'high quality' connecting cable from Maplins to replace previous shambles. After connecting via this cable for the first time, results are:

1) Speedtest.Net result: Download 487kb/s Upload 311 kb/s Ping: 136ms

2) BT Speed Test (British Telecom):

"Test comprises of Best Effort Test. IP profile for your line is – 500kbps.  DSL connection rate: 384kbps (UPSTREAM) 640kbps (DOWNSTREAM). Actual IP throughput: 462 kbps.

3) Dr Speedtouch results:
Receive Attenuation 60  / |Receive Margin  10 / Send Attenuation 31 / Send Margin 7.

We ran the above tests in the late afternoon, then waited for three hours (because BT won't allow a speed re-test until 3 hours have elapsed) then did so again. The results were more or less the same.

Sunday we were away, so Monday January 20th results are:

1) Speedtest.Net result: Download 652kb/s Upload 308 kb/s Ping: 144ms

2) BT Speed Test (British Telecom):

"Test comprises of Best Effort Test. IP profile for your line is – 1000kbps.  DSL connection rate: 384kbps (UPSTREAM) 768kbps (DOWNSTREAM). Actual IP througput: 557 kbps.

3) Dr Speedtouch results:
Receive Attenuation 60  / |Receive Margin  10 / Send Attenuation 31 / Send Margin 7.

Result (2) is the highest we have ever seen from BT and the first (and only time) BT has said that our line is rated at 1000kbps, not 500 kbps. Result (3) is the same as before.

Tuesday January 21st:

1) Speedtest Net result: 486 download / 313 upload

2) BT Speed Test: IP Profile for your line is 500 kbps. DSL connection rate: 384 kbps (UPSTREAM) 1216 kbps (DOWNSTREAM). Actual IP throughpout: 458 kbps.

3) Dr Speedtouch result: ReceiveAtten: 60  / ReceiveMargin: 10 / SendAtt:  31   SendMarg: 7

We re-tested 3 hours later. Results were virtually the same, viz: Speedtest: 489 down / 315 up. We couldn't get the BT Speed Test site to work at all. Dr Speedtouch results were, respectively: 60 RecAtt / 9 RecMarg / SendAtt31 / SendMarg7.

Wednesday January 23rd

Result 1)  489 / 315.
Result 2) Failed to get the BT Speed Test to even work.
Result 3) ReceiveAtten: 60  / ReceiveMarg  14   / SendAtten  31 / SendMarg 7.

This last result does seem significantly different to earlier results, although no equipment has been changed.

Thursday January 24th (today)

Morning:

1) Speedtest net test: 498 download  / 313 upload

2) BT Speed Test: IP profile for your line is 500kbps. DSL connection rate: 384kbps UPSTREAM, 1152kbps (DOWNSTREAM). Actual IP throughput: 458 kbps.

3) Dr Speedtouch results: RecAtt 60   / RecMarg 10 / SendAtt 31   SendMarg 7

Afternoon:

This time, we connected the laptop to Bt Broadband for the first time, using the same modem, and linking the laptop to the Bt Master Socket (after removing the socket face plate). These are the results using the master socket:

1) Speedtest.net: 484 download  / 349  upload

2) BT Speedtest: IP profile for your line: 500kbps. DSL connection rate: 416kbps UPSTREAM, 1504 kbps DOWNSTREAM. Actual IP throughput: 453 kbps.

3) Dr Speedtouch results:
ReceiveAttenuation: 60 / ReceiveMargin: 10 / SendAtten: 31   / SendMarg 7.

The only difference (to us) was that when the Internet connection was made via the master socket, it reported a connection speed of 1.4. Of late, we have rarely been above 1.1, and more often than not, below 800.

As to how the 'Net "felt" when using the BT master socket, rather than an ordinary socket upstairs, I suppose the answer must be, "not very different!"

Perhaps the figures make more sense – though sadly, not to us: for instance, we cannot understand why this line was rated by BT at 1000kbps on Monday (when we were NOT connected to the master socket) yet never was before and hasn't been since.

My OH still swears it's all to do with BT and not us, but he gets more wound up about BT than I do. . .

* Apologies for length. This will be the very last, lo-onn-gg post I inflict on this forum!

[Lance]

in essence, you have connected at a higher speed (~1.5mb) at the test socket, than when connected normally. This shows there is noise being picked up on your side of the wiring (not BT's).

Also, there is a quite a variation between connection speeds (between 640 and 1216). This also suggests that there is noise being picked up on your line, although possibly some of it external to your control.

[Rik]

Hi Vali

What Lance says. Clearly the connection at the test socket is giving you a better sync speed (you're not seeing an immediate effect because the profile doesn't follow for a while). It is likely that your best course of action would be to fit a filtered faceplate, then run some Cat5 cable from that to a router, and run the computers from that. Does that sound a possibility?

[Vali]

Hi Lance & Rik: do we put a cheque in the post now or wait for your accounts rendered?? <g>

Well I'm amazed how you've both been able to see the clues as OH and I weren't even looking at the "downstream" figures. Obviously, then, the master socket is the way to go. We have shelving in the garage close by the master socket so a router, I guess, could live there, connected to a filtered face plate (Maplin's again?)

Our son, however, seems suddenly to have become a construction expert and tells us that as the garage has solid walls, and is (for obvious reasons) on the ground flooor, the router might be effective for using the laptop wirelessly in the ground floor kitchen but not so good for his desktop or Dad's desktop both of which are on the top floor of our 3-storey home.

But then again, I started driving everyone mad here because the 2700 'Business Hub' router was meant (well, I thought so) to be pretty good at "beaming" through walls and, sort of, upstairs (not a very technical description. . .) As it's parental privilege to ignore offspring I prefer to listen to the advice here!

[Rik]

Hi Vali

Wireless reception is a very inexact science, depending on the materials used in construction of the walls and any RSJs or other metallic reinforcing materials. Try it with the router in the garage, if it doesn't work, then look at running a cable from the filtered side of the faceplate - without knowing the layout of the house, I don't know how difficult that would be?

If you can get a 2700 with SBC firmware, it's possible to crank up the wireless output, so that might be another option. A third would be to leave the router in the garage, but run some Cat5 or 6 ethernet cables to the computers.

[mogden]

If your garage is on the same electric ring as your house, you might find investing in a couple of homeplug adapters easier....

Something like http://www.ebuyer.com/product/131829

Just my 2p.

[Rik]

Good thought, though Vali would probably need three, ie one in the garage and two upstairs.

[mogden]

Or two and a wireless router inside the house.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/132431

Or a wireless range extender if you can get line of sight from house to garage.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/79363

IS that 6p now 

[Rik]

All possibilities - cables would be the cheapest option if it can be done.

It's time for a forum day out at Hadrian's Wall.

[Vali]

I am beginning to think the Open University has more competition than it can handle. The wisdom imparted here is an entire course in itself. That it is also "real world" makes such a difference!

Mogden's under-priced cheque will be in the post, promise! (6p though?) As to the "real world" solutions proposed, I and OH are definitely in the company of brain surgeons when we have only got as far as vaguely understanding what's written on the back of a packet of aspirin. But:

1) Yes mogden. I mean, the garage is on the same electrical circuit. It's an integral garage, the front of the house. So I'm thinking the line of sight consideration need not apply in this instance??

2) Very probably, Rik, RSJs all over the place! Breezeblock wall, seems to be. OH broke a drill when putting up the shelving when we moved in. Then he injured his wrist. Then I took over the damn drilling and finished off the shelves. This is irrelevant but I'm trying to say, the walls do seem even thicker than we are about wireless technology.

3) Trying to drill straight through the garage wall into the hall would possibly hospitalise OH and I'm not sure I could do it either. So although we thought about putting the router on the hall table next to some flowers (very twee) we also realised that drilling straight through was beyond us.

4) So then. . . As a wireless solution, is it the experts' recommendation that three "home plugs" would be best? (And please do not respond saying you're not experts!) And thanks for the link mogden, I had no idea such existed until you pointed me in that direction!

Or would the solution be: a 2700 with SBC firmware (please appreciate, I'm using phrases I don't even understand. . .) with two home plugs?

Or. . .  A thought prompted by Rik: if I pop out late one night, run a 5 Cat cable for a few miles to The Wall (Hadrian's, not our garage) and connect either to an Ultra Extended Wireless Router or a pylon for the electricity? (But perhaps best forget that.)

Seriously though. . .

Am off to read more\begin to understand more about home plugs. Also, our son has come home and surprised me with a short lecture about something called a dongle which he says we also need in addition to plugs, routers, extenders, filtered plates, cable cats and Hadrian's Wall.

It seems possible I will soon be able to set up in business as a wireless adviser-consultant myself, though if mogden's only going to charge 6p, and Rik hasn't thought about billing, there may not be much of a financial future in it.





 
 

[Rik]

Hi Vali

I can't quote my charges in public, the forum isn't wide enough for all the zeros.

1) Yes mogden. I mean, the garage is on the same electrical circuit. It's an integral garage, the front of the house. So I'm thinking the line of sight consideration need not apply in this instance??

What mains networking does is to use the electrical cables to carry the network signal, so you need one next to the router, connected to it by an ethernet cable, and then you either have one wherever you want to use a computer (assuming that the computers have ethernet ports, which most do), or you use a second router to which the computers can connect using wires or wireless. The set up for this is a bit more complex.

3) Trying to drill straight through the garage wall into the hall would possibly hospitalise OH and I'm not sure I could do it either. So although we thought about putting the router on the hall table next to some flowers (very twee) we also realised that drilling straight through was beyond us.

You probably need an SDS drill. These are reasonably cheap these days, and can be hired quite easily.

4) So then. . . As a wireless solution, is it the experts' recommendation that three "home plugs" would be best? (And please do not respond saying you're not experts!) And thanks for the link mogden, I had no idea such existed until you pointed me in that direction!

If I were doing it, I'd got for three mains networking devices, one with the router, two upstairs. Hopefully, you'll have enough signal downstairs for the router to connect wirelessly. If it doesn't, you'd need an extra unit.

Or would the solution be: a 2700 with SBC firmware (please appreciate, I'm using phrases I don't even understand. . .) with two home plugs?

That's another way, but then you need a second router in bridge mode inside the house.

Am off to read more\begin to understand more about home plugs. Also, our son has come home and surprised me with a short lecture about something called a dongle which he says we also need in addition to plugs, routers, extenders, filtered plates, cable cats and Hadrian's Wall.

To connect wirelessly, the two upstairs computers would need wireless dongles (USB) or wireless PCI cards (better). That's on top of the second router, and you still might find problems with coverage, so I feel the mains networking is a better bet for you - or you could get a phone wiring specialist to run cabling for you (he's have the right drill), which might be about as cheap. If you do, make sure he runs Category 5, 5e or 6 cable, not phone cable or, worst of all, alarm cable.

It seems possible I will soon be able to set up in business as a wireless adviser-consultant myself, though if mogden's only going to charge 6p, and Rik hasn't thought about billing, there may not be much of a financial future in it.

The future is there, just not necessarily the financial reward.

[Vali]

Priceless advice, Rik. (Again!) That's it, all sorted -- we're away again now (howling gale here, pitch dark, oh the joys of Britain in winter) so next week will go to Solwise (sorry, can't remember if that's right, the site came up after following Mog's helpful links!) and see about the cost of a router mitt plug, plus two plugs without.

Have a great weekend and thank you so much again!

[Rik]

Hi Vali

Another good brand for mains networking is Devolo:

http://www.devolo.com/co_EN/index.html

Enjoy.

[MoHux]

Interesting link Rik .............. if they put in some prices they might even sell some!! 

[Lance]

Here is the RRP list and here is where to buy from. Hope this helps Mo!