Kitz ISP comparison

[Noreen]

I see that Kitz's site is now offering a ISP comparison page, another one to add to ThinkBroadband and DSL Zone UK. http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/ISP_ratings_compare.php

[Rik]

I see we're in joint first place, get rating people.

(I must get Tim to send a new logo across.)

[madasahatter]

That's useful to know Noreen - thanks

[Rik]

What are you still doing here, Mad, you should be over there voting. 

[madasahatter]

I'm not at home Rik, and it won't let me do it from work, but I promise faithfully I shall do my duty to the best of my ability as soon as humanly possible 

[Rik]

That's good enough for me.

[Noreen]

I see we're in joint first place, get rating people.

That was me. I did it as soon as I saw f2s in lone 1st place with 100% in all sections, they must be a member of staff, really got my goat.

[Rik]

Make that, "that was us", Noreen.

[Philip]

done my bit 

[Rik]

Well done that man, have a karma.

[J!ll]

Me too! 

[Rik]

There's clearly not much in the way of weighting in her rankings, F2S are still top on one rating, we're second. 

[J!ll]

Shall I vote again?! 

Nope, will have to do next month 

[Rik]

I suspect she's logging IP addresses and you won't be able to.

[Si]

Indeed, I just tried!

One rating a month per IP...

[J!ll]

Yep just what I posted, we overlapped 

[Noreen]

I see that we're in second place now. I just can't understand how f2s (Tiscali owned) is in first place with 100% in all sections although only with one rating and you wouldn't either if you read their forums like I do.

BTW how does it work that f2s has one rating for 100% and gets into first place while IDNet has more ratings for 100% but is in second place?

[Rik]

As I said, Noreen, Kitz isn't using a weighting system, just a pure 'average score'. Hopeless for evaluation, imo.

[BrianM]

Good find Noreen, just posted my two pence worth. 

[kinmel]

5*****s added (of course ) 

[Simon]

Voted! 

[Noreen]

So it seems that if nobody else rates f2s other than that one person they will remain 1st. And they sadly are now a 3rd rate Tiscali ISP.

[Sebby]

Just voted.

[J!ll]

We need more!

[Simon]

We need dynamic IPs! 

[Rik]

We need to get the IDNet staff voting!!

[Inactive]

I will leave my vote for a day or so, she may smell a rat, or accuse IDNetters of rigging the vote.

[Noreen]

I thought of posting on the f2support forum and suggesting that they voted but they know I've moved to IDNet and anyway it's in my signature there and my motive would be very apparent.

[Rik]

I do think Kitz is going to have to take a look at the way she does the rankings if she is to be taken seriously. Placing an ISP top on the basis of one rating is crazy.

[MoHux]

I have just added my twopennyworth!!  Told 'em to add more stars! 

S'daft ..... if there was only one all 5 star vote cast, IDNet would be joint 1st.   With 21 votes now cast all catagories are 5 star, except 2 at 4 star.  Which drops us to 99%. 

Cockeyed!! 

[Glenn]

Just added my 5* votes

[shazzy]

Voted.

[Noreen]

There's a thread about the new Kitz Rate Your ISP section on her forum. http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=1410.0

BTW I've decided to risk it and have posted on the f2s forum, so there might be more f2s customers voting one way or the other.

Got one reply so far.

Well, it does only have one rating, so it's not particularly representative

[Rik]

I still feel she needs to address the issue of weighting. One perfect review puts an ISP top, while IDNet with 24 perfect and two docked a star for VFM is second. Not statistically valid.

[Noreen]

I just hope that people aren't confusing the Value For Money rating with a rating as to whether it's cheap or not as of course they are two different things. However I do believe that people are free to give their honest opinion as they see it.

[Malc]

I've just done it from work

It was Pipex!

Gave them 1 for everything.

Put in comments:

Slow and poor support, long waiting times

Appauling DL speeds 

[Rik]

 

That's my boy.

[Noreen]

I've just read your Pipex rating, Malc, well done. All we want now is just one f2s user to give an honest rating but they seem too busy getting their MACs to bother at the moment.

[kitz]

Hiyas

Thanks to those of you who placed your votes  
I thought you may appreciate some comments which may help answer some of your concerns.


-------

The rate my ISP has only just come out of beta and hasn't really been mentioned anywhere as yet hence why it hasn't got a lot of votes in the system.

The reason its had low key mention so far is because I wanted to see how it was coping with identifying the ISPs - which touch wood its going ok on that.
Bear in mind I don't have ISP connections for IP lists, nor the funding to purchase them..  the site is independent and non-profit making and nor have an affiliation with any ISP. The project has been all my own code and burning the midnight oil stuff.

If a customer is happy with their lot and gives them 5/5 not much I can do about that - in  a similar way not much can be done about if a person who was miffed with a particular ISP gives it minimum scores across the board, despite the fact that it may be a damn good ISP.


As to weighting, whilst a good suggestion in theory - but reality weight against what 1 vote/100 votes/1000 votes?
The likes of TBB/DSLZone etc arent weighted either.... I dont think I've ever seen an ISP survey that is. The system uses the same calculation as on the likes of TBB/dslzone etc etc.
Look at in another way, would IDnetters be very happy if say IDNets 142 votes were weighted downwards against the 8789 votes from BT on TBB? In that climate, IDnet is at a clear advantage.

Something that could perhaps be implemented at a future date is an option to filter out ISPs with less than x votes. At the moment its not really practical due to the short period of time since its release.


>> I will leave my vote for a day or so, she may smell a rat, or accuse IDNetters of rigging the vote

Nah may as well vote now... The system already alerted me at 14-02-08 - 19:15 of possible irregularities and I've been monitoring whats been going on since then.  

>> I thought of posting on the f2support forum

Whilst I haven't actually posted on the forum - I had already contacted Chaz yesterday asking if he'd be so kind as to do the honours.  
If he will do so now..   since its now been mentioned in another thread....  I dont know. :/

>> I do think Kitz is going to have to take a look at the way she does the rankings if she is to be taken seriously. Placing an ISP top on the basis of one rating is crazy.

As time goes by then the more votes the system has, the more accurate it will be. Its only just been released and as up to now, only mentioned at one other place.
- TBH Its not even been posted on my own ISPs community forums yet (nor has my own vote been placed). -
The only reason I had contacted Chaz was because I thought the 1 vote was out of place under the current climate at f2s afaik this is its first mention on any of the ISP forums.

The 1 vote thing shouldn't be there for long. Although the system could identify several more ISPs, it is at the present time only open to those ISPs that I feel will be sufficient of to be able to give a fair rating.  I've already had a couple of requests to add some ISPs, but unfortunately these will be declined due to what I feel is insufficient valid voters to give a fair and proper representation... I dont want the likelyhood of votes being skewed in the long term by little known ISPs.

It is very early days right now - its taken months to code, test and implement...
So can I please just ask you guys to bear with it for a little longer until it has chance to get up and running properly. I can recall dslzones going through similar period when it was new too.



It does have the caveat

"These figures are intended as a guide based on ratings by visitors to this site. As with any survey it may or may not be reflective of total usage in the UK. - More votes per ISP is likely to give a more accurate result. "

Its intended as a guide to help other users choose an ISP - Not a competition and attempting to sway results by making multi-votes or giving all 1's to other ISPs doesn't really help anyone  

Therefore I do think I need to add something to the site - a warning that suspected multi-votes or invalid votes will be removed. So thank you for helping bring that to my attention  
Although I had considered the possibility of this occurring, I had thought that it was perhaps more likely to occur with a disgruntled user, rather than users trying to push their ISP to the top of the list.

As some of your are probably already aware... the system does do everything that possibly can to prevent rigging - not just on IPs. But there is always someone who is determined to bypass it.. in exactly the same way that the TBB one can be bypassed.


Thanks for reading this hope its alleviated some concerns..  
and most of all thank you to those who took the time to record ratings for your ISP

[Rik]

Hi Kitz

Welcome to our place and thanks for taking the time to explain your system. As you will realise, we have at least two opinions on everything. We really appreciate the work you do, though, and regularly direct people to your site to save us re-inventing the wheel. 

[kitz]

F2S  IP 83.xx.xx.xx  3  1  1  1  1  Tiscali cr*p  15-02-08 - 17:44 

There you go someone else has rated... 
told you it wouldnt stay like that for long   

[Simon]

  Kitz, and thanks for coming to the wicket so openly. 

[Noreen]

Just love the latest f2s comment on Kitz's rating site

[Malc]

Don't really follow that post, is the person complaining about the 1 votes.


Its intended as a guide to help other users choose an ISP - Not a competition and attempting to sway results by making multi-votes or giving all 1's to other ISPs doesn't really help anyone  


If so, and this is from experience, this is why I put 1's and why I'm happy to pay several £'s more here for what it advertised.

Pipex

1 Liars, claim they don't throttle lines or port block. They do.
2 Claim they're not tiscalli, they are.
3 Took me 3 WEEKS to get my MAC by law it should be 5 working days, c--k ups and lies, only mention of offcom got it.
4 Say they are unlimited, but complain when you download.
5 Absolutely appalling download speeds 7am to 12pm.
6 High line contention.
7 Take forever to answer calls.
8 Most staff seem to be reading from script and have no idea.
9 I tried to cancel within the 14 day cooling off period at the beginning of my contract, but they insisted the start date was from when I placed my order, it took them 16 days to transfer me.
10 Left me with no phone line for 2 days when I was unbundled, BT sorted it out.

That's why I gave 1's.

[Simon]

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be funny!  I just meant thanks for addressing the issues raised. 

[Simon]

I'm giving up posting by phone.  I can't keep up! 

[Noreen]

Simon, I hope that my post wasn't confusing, I was laughing at the comment on Kitz's site not your post.

[Malc]

Just added my 5's, can't fault Idnet apart from I've lost my insanity since coming here , at least Noreen is restoring it for me

[kitz]

>> or giving all 1's to other ISPs doesn't really help anyone

Wasnt meaning you specifically Malc... if thats what you thought?
- when posting that I was actually recalling something I'd seen recently of someone giving IDNET all 1's elsewhere.. and I meant in general terms.

[Rik]

We have our ways, though, Malc. 

[Simon]

I did think I'd dropped a clanger. Noreen!  You edited faster than I could post!  As I said, it's hard keeping up using my phone, but that's my problem! 

[Malc]

>> or giving all 1's to other ISPs doesn't really help anyone

Wasnt meaning you specifically Malc... if thats what you thought?
- when posting that I was actually recalling something I'd seen recently of someone giving IDNET all 1's elsewhere.. and I meant in general terms.

That's fair enough, I was just defending my vote and giving reasons for it, my anger is directed at pipex.

My vote of 5's for ID is backed up by the fact I am prepared to pay £10 a month more to get what is advertised.

[Rik]

I did think I'd dropped a clanger. Noreen!  You edited faster than I could post!  As I said, it's hard keeping up using my phone, but that's my problem! 

Start carrying a laptop with you?

[Simon]

Wouldn't fit in my pocket, Rik. 

[Malc]

Get bigger pockets, I bet J!ll could fit one in her handbag  

[ReDGryphoN]

Voted, we are No 1

ReD

MAABOF

[Rik]

Wouldn't fit in my pocket, Rik. 

That's why it's called a laptop, Simon.

[Sebby]

Kitz,



Thanks for all your hard work and a great site, which we often direct people too. I hope to see you around here a bit, but appreciate that you're probably very busy.

[Rik]

Don't forget, btw, people that you need to rate IDNet at ThinkBroadband if you haven't already.

[Lance]

Thanks for the reminder, RIk!

And welcome to the forum Kitz! 

[Noreen]

Don't forget, btw, people that you need to rate IDNet at ThinkBroadband if you haven't already.

and DSL ZoneUK, in the hope that it MIGHT make a difference. Unfortunately many people still take notice of their ratings. I'm going to make a point of saying that their IDNet page is still wrong every time that I vote there in future.

[Inactive]

Hi kitz, So nice to see you here, many thanks for your comments.

Have a Karma and a warm welcome.

[Noreen]

IDNet is now second to Enternet.

[Rik]

Inevitable, I suspect, Noreen, with people marking it down on price.

[Noreen]

IDNet back on top again, just.

[Rik]

That's nice to know.

[Noreen]

And that's with fewer voters too.

[Rik]

I'm still curious about anyone who says they're worth every penny, but then marks down on VFM. 

[Inactive]

Unfortunately Rik, some are unable to distinguish between VFM and Cheap.

[Rik]

I'd say many rather than some, In.

[Noreen]

Unfortunately Rik, some are unable to distinguish between VFM and Cheap.

Yes, I think that I've said this before but I believe that some people are genuinely confused about the meanings of VFM and above or below average price.

[Rik]

I agree, Noreen. I just find it puzzling that someone can say "They're far from the cheapest and probably other ISP's have better packages but you get what you pay for and these guys are worth every penny." and then mark down on VFM. 

[Si]

I think it's probably the 1-5 scale that causes the confusion. If 5 stars is absolutely 100% value for money, what's 4? Still value for money but not absolutely top value?!

I think if you are talking VFM then it should be a black-and-white "This IS good value for what you get" or "This is NOT good value for what you get". I doubt IDnet would get anything other than 100% positive then...

[Rik]

I agree with you. Something is either VFM or it isn't.

[Malc]

I suppose a lot of it is down to how much knowledge you have, if you don't know any better and only surf and email than tiscalli is OK, and those people are happy, and look at ID and others as expensive.

However, if you use it of games and DL ing etc, then quality is important. These days you only get what you pay for.

Do people who buy 3p netto beans think Heniz are expensive?

[Rik]

But these are IDNet customers rating the service, Malc. I have no problems with anyone who feels the service is expensive, but a comment like the one I posted at reply #71, with the score marked down for VFM just seems contradictory to me.

[Gary]

Perception is a funny thing, someone gave IDNet 3 stars for support 3 for reliability 2 for value and three for satisfaction, now value i can understand being a little lower maybe as they cost a little more but not much when you think of some other ISP's, two stars is low, are they really on the same service as the rest of us? over all comment was  "so so" 

[Rik]

I saw that one, Gary. My immediate thought was "Why are you staying with them?"

[madasahatter]

Having worked in retail for 18 years, I know that some people are never gonna be happy no matter how good the service is or how much you do for them - they always want more.

[Gary]

I saw that one, Gary. My immediate thought was "Why are you staying with them?"

I know Rik, I wondered that, can you vote on their if you are not a member of the ISP in question, does it note your ip and match you up to avoid people affecting ratings?

[Rik]

Having worked in retail for 18 years, I know that some people are never gonna be happy no matter how good the service is or how much you do for them - they always want more.

Sue says I'm like that.

[Rik]

I know Rik, I wondered that, can you vote on their if you are not a member of the ISP in question, does it note your ip and match you up to avoid people affecting ratings?

Don't know, Gary, but if you don't think much of a service, consider it expensive but stay, it does raise a few questions.

[Gary]

Having worked in retail for 18 years, I know that some people are never gonna be happy no matter how good the service is or how much you do for them - they always want more.

Thats true Mad but how could you give IDNet support 3 stars, cant remember who it was but I was called back on my mobile and got into a good old chat about mountain bikes after the issue was sorted  you don't get that human touch and top level support anywhere else

[madasahatter]

Thats true Mad but how could you give IDNet support 3 stars, cant remember who it was but I was called back on my mobile and got into a good old chat about mountain bikes after the issue was sorted  you don't get that human touch and top level support anywhere else

I agree gary, but the person who gace that rating probably wanted ALL that - plus them to come round to his/her house, do the cleaning and make them a cup of tea 

[Gary]

Don't know, Gary, but if you don't think much of a service, consider it expensive but stay, it does raise a few questions.

If it does not, its open to so much abuse Rik, we could all charge in and vote any ISP as bad then

[Gary]

I agree gary, but the person who gace that rating probably wanted ALL that - plus them to come round to his/her house, do the cleaning and make them a cup of tea 

well now you mention it mad, mines a peppermint tea

[Rik]

Thats true Mad but how could you give IDNet support 3 stars, cant remember who it was but I was called back on my mobile and got into a good old chat about mountain bikes after the issue was sorted  you don't get that human touch and top level support anywhere else

That would have been Simon.

[Rik]

If it does not, its open to so much abuse Rik, we could all charge in and vote any ISP as bad then

Shall we go pick on Enta? 

[Gary]

Shall we go pick on Enta? 

 

[madasahatter]

well now you mention it mad, mines a peppermint tea

nice try

[Noreen]

Shall we go pick on Enta? 

Yes, because they seem to hate IDNet. Come to think of it they seem to hate all competitors.

[Rik]

Paranoia is a terrible affliction.

[Noreen]

Kitz seems to have redesigned her site. I liked the previous "opening" version.

[Rik]

It's a bit quieter though.

[Noreen]

Yes but I thought that the opening of the previous version was very slick and individual

[Rik]

It was, but it tended to wake me up rather abruptly.

[Niall]

I see we're in joint first place, get rating people.

(I must get Tim to send a new logo across.)

I just voted and IDnet is top again (joint) with 96.

[Gary]

I just voted and IDnet is top again (joint) with 96.

I did that yesterday, seems they definitely do not want IDNet tops