Mystery - the main PC on my Home Net makes the ADSL line drop when it starts up!

[Rik]

Keep us posted, Les. Mo's idea is a good one, if you don't mind the exercise. Even changing the orientation of the PC might help. I don't know anything more than you about your PSU, btw...

[Sebby]

I'm glad you've potentially sorted it, Les. I'm sorry I wasn't around yesterday for the rest of the discussion, but as always, Rik has done us proud.

[LesD]

Guys,

Mohuk, Drummer, Rik, Sebby one and all thanks again for the Welcome, Help & Advice as I said already it has been overwhelming! 

BTW Drummer there is no fear of me posting on Tiscali ever again. Since about Wednesday last week the only thing my Access Credentials work for is my Bill!

I have made the major breakthrough, which I know you guys had already guessed was the root cause of my problem. Now who was it said keep us posted.... which if you are sitting comfortably I will do but it's a major read!

These are this mornings numbers and today at last I can get the same result from both machines!

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 24 db


The above copy and paste is from the main machine downstairs and that is the highest connection speed I have ever read with this machine booted up since I have had ADSL Max!

Taking the advice given to me on this forum the breakthrough yesterday was using my little transistor radio off tune on the Medium Wave and moving it round the components of my system listening to the noise it picked up and there was no doubt that the worst offender was the PC's PSU. Yesterday as the day was getting on I contented myself with moving the mains cables that were carrying this noise as far away from the modem/router as I could and it did improve matters.

This morning, however, with the machine downstairs off, the one upstairs on the landing was connecting at 4256 kbps but as soon as the other one was on it was sub 2800 kbps. I decided to do what I should have done yesterday and put the old PSU back, the one that is reluctant to start up on occasions. Sure enough it took a couple of flicks of the switch on the mains socket to get it going but once it was all was well with my connection speeds on both machines.

Now is the new PSU faulty? It powers the PC OK so I can see MicroDirect, the supplier, arguing the point but I have contacted them and told them that it is not fit for purpose and await their reply. The invoice date was 06/12/2007 so I reckon I have got a good argument as it is under three months old and been giving me grief since I was switched to adaptive rate broadband.

What I must do is get some days in without the frequent disconnections that have occurred while I have been messing about, so that I can get my IP Profile up again. This is what I get today: 

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1847 kbps


My current IP Profile of 2000 kbps means my throughput is sub 2 Mbps till BT take the brakes off and from what I read this can be anything from 3 to 15 days with a stable connection!

I guess time will tell.

Now who knows what's up with my old PSU that makes it tricky to start. I am a dab hand with the soldering iron when I know what to do!

[Sebby]

I have made the major breakthrough, which I know you guys had already guessed was the root cause of my problem. Now who was it said keep us posted.... which if you are sitting comfortably I will do but it's a major read!

These are this mornings numbers and today at last I can get the same result from both machines!

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 24 db

Looking good.

The above copy and paste is from the main machine downstairs and that is the highest connection speed I have ever read with this machine booted up since I have had ADSL Max!

Just to clarify, it's not the machines that are connecting at this speed. The router should stay connected, but what was happening is that turning on one of your machines was causing the router to re-sync.

Taking the advice given to me on this forum the breakthrough yesterday was using my little transistor radio off tune on the Medium Wave and moving it round the components of my system listening to the noise it picked up and there was no doubt that the worst offender was the PC's PSU. Yesterday as the day was getting on I contented myself with moving the mains cables that were carrying this noise as far away from the modem/router as I could and it did improve matters.

This morning, however, with the machine downstairs off, the one upstairs on the landing was connecting at 4256 kbps but as soon as the other one was on it was sub 2800 kbps. I decided to do what I should have done yesterday and put the old PSU back, the one that is reluctant to start up on occasions. Sure enough it took a couple of flicks of the switch on the mains socket to get it going but once it was all was well with my connection speeds on both machines.

Now is the new PSU faulty? It powers the PC OK so I can see MicroDirect, the supplier, arguing the point but I have contacted them and told them that it is not fit for purpose and await their reply. The invoice date was 06/12/2007 so I reckon I have got a good argument as it is under three months old and been giving me grief since I was switched to adaptive rate broadband.

So it looks like the PSU is to blame, though you might have a hard time getting it replaced. If so, you might just have to swallow the cost of a new one, but get a half-decent one.

What I must do is get some days in without the frequent disconnections that have occurred while I have been messing about, so that I can get my IP Profile up again. This is what I get today: 

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1847 kbps


My current IP Profile of 2000 kbps means my throughput is sub 2 Mbps till BT take the brakes off and from what I read this can be anything from 3 to 15 days with a stable connection!

Hopefully if you stay sync'd for 3-5 days the profile will update. Stability is the key here.

[Rik]

Hi Les

What Sebby said.

The profile will recover in 3-5 days unless you have another low sync event. The 15 day figure comes into play when your noise margin has been increased.

On the PSU front, I think your case is strong, as emitting RF noise would be a breach of law. If the retailer doesn't want to play ball, give your Trading Standards people a ring. Under the Sale of Goods Act, it's up to the retailer to prove no fault in the first six months, rather than you having to prove fault.

[LesD]

Hi Folks:

I haven't run the BT Tester this morning but with a thinkbroadband downstream speed of 3318 kbps my IP Profile must be 3500. What do you folks reckon?

19/02/08 06:47    3318.68 Kbps   378.33 Kbps   91.135.10.73   Netgear DG834   

Netgear Stats:
System Up Time 24:07:24

ADSL Link            Downstream    Upstream
Connection Speed 4064 kbps      448 kbps
Line Attenuation       41 db        13 db
Noise Margin            6 db          21 db

This was seen in the on the main PC downstairs.

I reckon this is about as good as will I get. 

Despite a good "snoop" round the posts on this forum the only way I know to find out what my IP Profile is, is by running the BT Speed Test. Is there another way?

[Simon]

Despite a good "snoop" round the posts on this forum the only way I know to find out what my IP Profile is, is by running the BT Speed Test. Is there another way?

I think we all wish there was, Les. 

[Rik]

The results look right for a 3500 profile, Les, and that also fits your speed. As Simon says, we all wish there was another way to get profile information, but unfortunately there isn't. All we can hope is that BT ramp up capacity at the tester to match the demand.

[Lance]

Thoses stats all look good to me!

[LesD]

Thoses stats all look good to me!

I am hoping they remain this way between 7 PM and 10 PM this evening  but now I am with IDNet my confidence is high. 

I am gradually shedding that "Tipex" mentality.   

[Rik]

After a while, the nightmares will fade and you will sleep soundly again.

[LesD]

Hi Folks,

If you can take any more of my ramblings this is what I get this evening.

My thinkbroadband throughput speed is lower than it was this morning, it's back at 2.8 Mbps,

19/02/08 19:27  2822.31 Kbps 378.53 Kbps 91.135.10.73 Netgear DG834 

but the router's Connection Speed is lower too:



ADSL Link           Downstream      Upstream
Connection Speed 3744 kbps        448 kbps
Line Attenuation      40 db             13 db
Noise Margin             7 db             24 db


I made the cardinal mistake this evening of deciding to tidy things up a bit by fixing the router to the wall below just below desktop level about a foot below where I have had it perched for the last few days and in fact a bit further away from the monitor. Through out my experience with tidying things up the "bird's nest" of wires always works better than the neat and tidy version!

What I expect in reality is that in the day light hours I will most likely get a better connection speed again as I have had a growing suspicion about this for a little while now. The only sense I can make of this idea was borne out to a degree just now because the first time I powered up the router after fixing it to the wall with both computers turned off as it happens, the Connection Speed was 3520 kbps, which did disappoint me! So I switched everything off including the fluorescent lights in the kitchen and a good number of the low energy ones I have wondered about before. Then with my trusty torch in hand I powered up the router again for the 3744 kbps you see above. I have since realised that I had left the fluorescent lights on in the garage, the tumble drier was running and the telly was on, very likely the central heating pump too. As this is the normal electrical environment I guess I shall have to lump it. I know that if I get a higher connection speed like the 4256 kbps I had on Sunday morning, as long as I don't switch the router off or disconnect the line that it will hold on to this speed now that the EMI from my main PC's PSU is not making the line drop when this machine starts up.

Now for a little light relief I have a challenge but there are no prizes for guessing which are the IDNet speed test results and which are the Tiscali ones in the two items I have attached! 

Ok the file names are a bit of a give away but take a look how often I had downstream speeds lower than my upstream ones with my previous ISP! 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Sebby]

Something's still not right. Your sync is too varied for my liking. Night time is inevitably a more noisy time than day, but it shouldn't cause such a drastic change in sync.

I think we need to establish for sure whether this is a BT issue or something inside your property, as it's still not clear. What I want to know is if you get your high sync (~4.2Mb) consistently if you plug into the test socket. If you do, we can be sure it's something inside your property. If you don't, I'd say it's probably a BT issue in which case you can get IDNet to escalate it.

[LesD]

What I want to know is if you get your high sync (~4.2Mb) consistently if you plug into the test socket.

Ok Sebby I will have a go with my CAT5 cable again but it's a job for another day as it is getting near 

What I can do relatatively easily is run my CAT5 cable with the RJ11's on either end from an ADSL filter plugged into the inner test socket of my BT Master Socket directly to the Router's ADSL input socket.

I know there are those who would prefer the router as close to the Master Socket as possible but in my circumstances that constitutes a bigger job for a time when I am a bit less pressed. Anyway there is another 1.62 km plus of "bell wire" between me and the exchange so a few more metres in my house should not make that much difference. One things I should own up to is that between where the router is and the Master Socket is my meter cupboard when the mains comes in through the floor and goes up through the distribution box and off round the house for lights and power. Not the best arrangement but without a bit of demolition and a lot of rewiring that's the way it is. 

When I run my length of CAT5 cable I take it down the hall as far away as I can from this meter cupboard.

[Sebby]

Ok Sebby I will have a go with my CAT5 cable again but it's a job for another day as it is getting near 

That's understandable.

What I can do relatatively easily is run my CAT5 cable with the RJ11's on either end from an ADSL filter plugged into the inner test socket of my BT Master Socket directly to the Router's ADSL input socket.

That's exactly what you want to do.

See how you go. I just want to establish for definite that it's something inside your property, as it could be a line fault. Good luck!

[LesD]

Hi Sebby,

No CAT5 cable tests yet but this morning with my house "electrically quiet" i.e. nothing much switched on just a couple of clocks, the fridge and the freezer that sort of thing, no lights, TV etc. I powered the router off waited 30 seconds and switched it on again.

This is what I got from the router stats:

System Up Time 00:21:35
Port   Status      RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   123   236   0   14   19   00:21:00      
LAN   10M/100M   2616   1970   0   958   239   00:21:31   

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3840 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db                13 db      
Noise Margin   12 db                25 db   
   
The Noise Margin was up and down between 8 db and 12 db.
So does this morning's  sub 4000 kbps connection speed blow away my idea about a noisy electrical evironment in my house.   

It's a rhetorical question and the next step will be to do the CAT5 cable test again when an opportunity presents it self.

[Rik]

Hi Les

That result suggests that your target noise margin has been increased to 12db, hence the lower sync speed. Until you get your line stable, and hold a sync continuously for 14 days, that margin will not be reduced. You really need to get your wiring sorted asap, because your line should be capable of much more. It's also worth noting that the u/s noise margin is quite low for your attenuation, so there may be an underlying line fault, but until you've ruled out your own wiring you really don't want to go there.

[LesD]

Hi Rik & Sebby,

Thanks for maintaining interest in my problem. I know I am taking a long time to reach a successful outcome but I am trying! (Hopefully not everyone's patience  )

This evening I have plugged an ADSL filter into the inner socket of my BT Master socket and run my longish length of CAT5 cable directly from the ADSL socket in the filter to the RJ11 socket in my Router. When I put the RJ11 plugs on this length of cable I made sure that it was one of the twisted pairs that I used to go to pins 3 & 4 in the RJ11 plugs (the middle pair) and I swapped them over from one end to the other. I had the PC off just in case when I next powered up the router and saw the ADSL LED become green and stable. Then I switched on and started the PC and its monitor. The ADSL LED stayed on while the PC booted as it has done since I changed PSU in this PC. This is the result I obtained:

System Up Time 00:09:15
Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   83   132   0   26   33   00:08:47      
LAN   10M/100M   1244   957   0   1049   275   00:09:11   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3616 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation       39 db                13 db      
Noise Margin       7 db                 25 db   


I have seen the Noise Margin go from 6 db to 9 db and back again as I watch. I think you said Rik that Netgear DG834's are a bit flaky with the Noise Margin readings so maybe that something to do with this aspect. The System Up Time is now 00:50:00. I shall leave it till the hour is up so that I don't have too many disconnection to try and avoid dropping my IP Profile too far and then I will boot the router again and see if there is any significant difference.

The figures I posted this morning namely:
ADSL Link            Downstream    Upstream
Connection Speed   3840 kbps   448 kbps
did maintain all day with the router left on as I took a look before I started out on this latest exercise.

I wish I knew what is different now to when I had the numbers:
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
on Sunday after I had first swapped the PSU in my PC.

I will keep you posted.

[Sebby]

Hi Les,

It's difficult to say whether your target SNRM has been increased now, and that makes things even more difficult. I must say that it did look like it was the case earlier, but not tonight.

You've got to remember that night time is always noisier than day, so you'll almost always sync lower at night.

For now, what I want to see is that you have stability in the master socket. Is there any chance you could leave it how it is for a couple of days, i.e. with the filter in the test socket (perhaps if you have DECT phones you can move the base station to the master socket)? I know it's probably a bit inconvenient, but I think we really need to see if things are stable in the master socket. Previously, you were suffering several re-syncs a day, so this should say if your internal wiring is to blame (for whatever reason) pretty quickly.

Let us know how you get on and we'll take it from there.

[LesD]

For now, what I want to see is that you have stability in the master socket. Is there any chance you could leave it how it is for a couple of days, i.e. with the filter in the test socket

Ah too late already! The Health and Safety Executive in my house (that's me) could not leave it that way because it is a trip hazard for grandchildren and my wife who would probably be more at risk than the kids!

I am already back on my internal extension wiring and there is a comfort for me at least as the numbers are the pretty much the same as with the CAT5 cable only the Line Attenuation is reading 1 db more but I have seen 39db through my internal extension wiring many times in the past. This concurs with what I found the last time I tried the CAT5 cable a week or three ago. Here are the numbers now:

System Up Time 00:02:29

Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   49   56   0   44   53   00:02:02      
LAN 10M/100M   301   249   0   834   263   00:02:25   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3616 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db   13 db      
Noise Margin   7 db   21 db   

I have to take note of what Rik said about how consistent the Upstream is.

For the moment the Noise Margin is doing the same i.e. varying between 6 db and 9db.
It is a different ADSL filter too come to think of it. The one in the Master Socket is one I had from Tiscali when I first signed up with them and the one I am using now is the one that came with the Netgear router. So that says to me that they must both be OK.

I still have a mains extension cable with the "Wall Wart" power supply for the router trailed across my hall that will have to go before tomorrow but I will leave it there all night and see what the figures are in the morning.
I would put money on the connection speed being just the same as since I found out why my main PC was making the ADSL line drop the line stays up OK. On my old 2 Mbps fixed rate package that I had from Tiscali until the middle of January my WAN stayed up for hundreds of hours. I am not so sure this was as true after the new PSU was fitted but I only became aware that the PC was dropping the line when it booted after I was moved to adaptive rate (Max) broadband.

I have been connected for 25 Mins again now through my extention wiring and just saw a fleeting 10 db Noise Margin but it is changing between 6 db and 9 db again now pretty consistently.

[Sebby]

Hmm, identical speed on an extension would suggest it's not internal wiring. See how you go with the new filter. I'm running out of ideas. 

[LesD]

Hey somethings really up tonight! 

I thought things felt sluggish while posting this evening but I have been consumed with my testing.

Now take a look at this!

Despite reasonable connection speeds my thinkbroadband speed test results just now was worse than anything I had seen with Tiscali:

Date 20/02/08 21:24:06
Speed Down 127.59 Kbps ( 0.1 Mbps )
Speed Up 378.10 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server 0.0.0.0
IP Address 91.***.**.**
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/12035425957619109863.html

The router stats are still saying this:

System Up Time 01:04:28

Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   7049   7960   0   667   1087   01:04:01      
LAN 10M/100M   13377   11332   0   1833   875   01:04:24   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3616 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db   13 db      
Noise Margin   6 db   21 db   

* Simon masked personal data

[LesD]

I am beginning to wonder if my Netgear is packing up. I have have been syncing at all sorts of different speed for days and tonight it says the connection speed is relatively OK, well what I have been used to in the main.

The question is can I believe it?

Here they are after coming up for 2 hours after the last power up:

System Up Time 01:53:48

Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   8725   10270   0   433   763   01:53:21      
LAN10M/100M   15611   13186   0   1202   560   01:53:44   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3616 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db   13 db      
Noise Margin   9 db   21 db   

I am now ultra suspicious of all the EMI the PC's PSU was kicking out until I swapped it on Sunday because I know my Netgear didn't like it so maybe this is the consequence. 

At the weekend I shall have to see if I can get the loan of one of the ones my brother offered me the other day.

[Sebby]

Don't go by thinkbroadband.com speed test results. Your sync looks okay, and it's probably a profile issue. Can you do a BT speed test?

[LesD]

it's probably a profile issue.

That sound encouraging.
From what my wife's told me later about her experience with Google Map loading very slowly early in the evening, before I did my CAT5 cable check, I think the throughput was down before I started my experiments. My 10 days are up now so maybe I have ended up with some dire IP Profile. Is this possible?   

Can you do a BT speed test?

Not at the moment I am sneaking on the forum at work! 

Now having left the router on overnight the uptime was over ten hours and the router stats were just the same as the evening before:

System Up Time 10:23:02

   Status      RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   11763   16555   0   98   186   10:22:35      
LAN   10M/100M   21655   18282   0   300   132   10:22:58   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   3616 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db   13 db      
Noise Margin   9 db   21 db   

So to remove the trailing lead trip hazard from across my hall I switched the router off at the mains switch in the hall, moved the cable back into my computer desk alcove and plugged it in again and switched the router on. This was done with everything else in the alcove switched off: PC; monitor; printer; digital clock; DEC remote telephone base etc. Once the router had booted up and connected so that the ADSL LED was on steady I booted up the PC and took a look at the router stats. This is what I saw:

System Up Time 00:03:26

   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time      
WAN   PPPoA   140   167   0   125   630   00:02:54      
LAN   10M/100M   405   356   0   1122   287   00:03:22   
 
ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream      
Connection Speed   4256 kbps   448 kbps      
Line Attenuation   40 db   13 db      
Noise Margin   8 db   19 db   

Eureka I thought but despite this really good connection speed (for me) the speed test throughput was still circa 128 kbps!

Do you think it might be my router on the blink or possibly something else like a wierd IP profile?