When is network management not network management?

[madasahatter]

Interesting read about BitTorrent and the battle with Comcast - may be coming soon to an ISP near you:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/19/bittorrent_developers_hit_back_at_comcast/

[Rik]

It won't happen here, of course, unless IDNet change their outlook dramatically, but all the "stack 'me high, sell 'em cheap" ISPs are bound to go down that road.

[madasahatter]

I think that the comment about not oversubscribing your network being a form of network management was quite funny - but obviously the ISPs don't like good honest thinking like that 

[Rik]

Neither do the airlines, of course. 

[Gary]

A similar article I read stated that all networks practice shaping or throttling as a way of net management along the line somewhere, we know IDNet do not, but the article seemed to say any ISP that does not do this is basically not doing its job to preserver future bandwidth any ruse to justify poor service as a benefit it seems for the big ISP's these days and the customers just seem to accept it because they know no better.

[Rik]

I read that article, Gary. Why do ISPs need to conserve bandwidth for the future - we're not talking about a fossil fuel here!

[madasahatter]

I think that for the big ISPs it's not so much that they actively want to provide a bad service, nor preserve bandwidth per se, it's more that they will cram as many customers onto their network as possible, and if some users get poor service because they are using "more than their fair share" of the extremely limited available bandwidth ON that oversubscribed network, then it's tough luck for them.

[Rik]

You're right, they don't seek to provide a poor service, they just don't care too much if it happens.

[Gary]

I read that article, Gary. Why do ISPs need to conserve bandwidth for the future - we're not talking about a fossil fuel here!

I agree but there is this big thing about the net reaching a critical mass by 2010-ish with not enough big pipes being put in so the ISP's should conserve what they have by managing what they have now, that article would almost say IDNet are irresponsible if you thought about it. They mentioned about abolishing packages to go to pay by the GB instead to stop people downloading vast amounts, to me this just smacks of letting the industry get away with a poor service by scaremongering thus reducing complaints from the end users as "it must be this way of the net will die" they have enough cash to expand the infrastructure but that would cost

[madasahatter]

That's it in a nutshell Rik. I know when I was on tiscali (poor musguided fool that I was) their attitude was pretty much "if you do anything more than surf, e-mail, and the very occasional small download we don't really want you" - they were even offering to hand out MACs rather than deal with those users problems by increasing their bandwidth.

[Rik]

Reflected in the recent slamming, where they felt the savings would more than offset the churn.

[Gary]

[

I think that for the big ISPs it's not so much that they actively want to provide a bad service, nor preserve bandwidth per se, it's more that they will cram as many customers onto their network as possible, and if some users get poor service because they are using "more than their fair share" of the extremely limited available bandwidth ON that oversubscribed network, then it's tough luck for them.

That's probably very true, in which case the big ISP's will eventually hit a wall where speeds will be reduced to almost dial up again, this also has been mentioned before on the reg, its like so many other industry's, get it running saturate it to make money then worry about the effects later, by then its almost to late sadly

[Rik]

to me this just smacks of letting the industry get away with a poor service by scaremongering thus reducing complaints from the end users as "it must be this way of the net will die" they have enough cash to expand the infrastructure but that would cost

I agree completely, Gary. We pay IDNet a fair price which allows them to expand capacity to meet price. It's up to the rest of the industry to adopt the same business model and stop trying for market share.

[Gary]

I agree completely, Gary. We pay IDNet a fair price which allows them to expand capacity to meet price. It's up to the rest of the industry to adopt the same business model and stop trying for market share.

Can you see that squadron of flying pigs yet Rik I keep trying to persuade people to get away from the likes of Orange and talk talk, or if not use the Open dns servers, the issues talk talk and Orange have with dns lookup is scary and down to so many customers crammed in like sardines the whole system comes to a halt almost through lack of investment, sounds like British Leyland really

[Rik]

Or Northern Rock. 

[Gary]

Or Northern Rock. 

Damn I was showing my age far to much  but that's a great modern example Rik, its better to stay with the smaller ISP's as you say we pay a fair price which enables IDNet to expand as necessary, free broadband with your mobile and giving away laptops is just going to make getting their house in order financially impossible as time goes on, they will run at a loss or dump  high bandwidth users, where they could charge them and actually make some money, they should take note from Egg card who terminated many users cards who paid their card off each month, as they make no money out of them  Same as Loan companies who penalise you if you pay your loan off before its due to end, once again they make no money out of you so they charge an early settlement fee.

[Inactive]

they should take note from Egg card who terminated many users cards who paid their card off each month, as they make no money out of them 

They do make money Gary, they get a 3 or 4% cut from retailers, but that was not enough for the greedy Egg.

[Rik]

...and Barclaycard, according to some reports. Of course, it may be a combination of paying the card off and not spending enough on it I guess.

[Gary]

They do make money Gary, they get a 3 or 4% cut from retailers, but that was not enough for the greedy Egg.

True In, that's why they carry on letting dodgy traders who do not refund on time stay using their card services as they make money out of them and enough to offset the occasional claim that happens

[madasahatter]

Of course, it may be a combination of paying the card off and not spending enough on it I guess.

But in the real world, we know it's because they are not making enough money from their often exorbitant interest rates 

[Gary]

...and Barclaycard, according to some reports. Of course, it may be a combination of paying the card off and not spending enough on it I guess.

Would appear more may follow suit Rik, as people have got wise to credit cards and high interest rates they stop using them and then get terminated for common sense

[Inactive]

The daft thing is, I still get junk mail for credit cards that I don't want.

[Rik]

Would appear more may follow suit Rik, as people have got wise to credit cards and high interest rates they stop using them and then get terminated for common sense

Annoying, isn't it. I wonder if it's signalling that fraud, bad debts and the cost of liabilities under the Consumer Credit Act are becoming painful. They have been quick to hand out not only cards, but also merchant status.

[madasahatter]

Yep - me too In. Just shows how easy it is to get into massive debt.

[Rik]

The daft thing is, I still get junk mail for credit cards that I don't want.

A market which thrives on churn?