Download speed not up to scratch?

[Raz]

Hi everyone, friendly forum you have here. Fingers crossed you can help me out with some longstanding issues.

I joined IDnet on 8 Feb from AOL hoping for great things. Ive had alot of trouble for longer than i care to remember with random disconnects and since our local exchange was upgraded ive been unable to reach the download speeds i would consider to be normal.

Im still hopeful that IDnet will help with the random d/c. I got dropped a few times in the first 10 days but put that down to the settling in period. Its happened again since, really bad on Tues or Wed this week, which is incredibly frustrating and very costly as i spend most of my time online playing poker... a d/c at the wrong time can cost me hundreds of $$$. I did read on here that gw5 IDnetters experienced some unusual d/c's the other day so maybe thats all it was. I'll continue to monitor this and pray for that elusive stable connection.

Download speeds on the other hand are really confusing me. I used to get about 200kb/s d/l speed before Goole exchange was upgraded to 8mb. As soon as that happened i dropped to speeds of about 30 and so began the longest, most frustrating customer service experience of my life. I wont bore you with the details, but after about 2 months trying AOL told me there was a fault on my line and fixed it for me.

For a few days after that i got around 450kb/s which is where i expected my speed to be, but then it dropped again to 150-200 and stayed there. Thats when i left AOL and came here expecting all my troubles to be over. The speeds however have stayed the same, apart from one day i remember seeing a speed over 400. Certainly for the last week its been a constant 150-200kb/s.

Ive done speed tests, BTspeedtester has my d/l speed at around 4700 and this hasnt varied in the 4 or 5 times ive tried it. Yesterday i rang customer support at IDnet. I was told that my line looked "fantastic" and he couldnt think of a reason why i was getting the disconnects and poor speeds. When i mentioned my router (netgear dg834g) and computer were upstairs on a telephone extension socket he suggested that may be the problem and asked me to try move the router downstairs to the main BT socket and connect wirelessly. I did this but saw no improvement. If anything the speeds were slightly slower.

I dont know what else to do now. My other problem is im totally computer illiterate so most of what i read on these forums goes completely over my head.

Any advice (for dummies) would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks

[Rik]

Hi Raz

Welcome to the forum, have a karma.   

Unfortunately, to help you, we are going to have to go into quite a bit of techno-babble. First question, what profile did the BT tester say you had?

What sort of internal telephone wiring do you have, ie how many sockets, what it connected to them, what sort of master socket do you have, ie is it the newish NTE5 type, where you can remove the bottom part of the faceplate?

More to come, but let's start with those basics.

[Lance]

Raz! 

[Inactive]

Welcome Raz...have a welcome Karma..

[Sebby]

This isn't an IDNet issue; this is something with your line. Could you post your stats? Also, do you have a socket that looks like this? If so, could you remove the front plate (be careful as there will be extension wiring connected to the inside of it, so just let it dangle) and connect your router to the socket behind. Then re-post the stats from your router. This eliminates internal wiring and allows us to see if it's something internal to your property that's causing the case.

Once again, welcome, and rest assured that we'll help you get to the bottom of this problem to the best of our ability.

[Raz]

Sorry, as soon as i posted i got called away. I have about 40 mins at my pc until i need to leave again for a couple of hours.

I just ran a speed test with btspeedtester and this was the result:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   IP profile for your line is - 6000 kbps
   DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  7168 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3500 kbps

As far as telephone wiring goes... well i have a main socket downstairs and an extension upstairs. The main socket has my telephone and sky tv connected to it. Upstairs i only have my router connected. How do i find out what kind of socket i have? The house is 5 years old and the bottom part of the socket is attached with 2 screws so i suppose if i unscrewed those i could remove the bottom part of the faceplate. Does that help at all?

[Raz]

stats

System Up Time 22:41:49
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 183514 234735 0 217 1889 22:41:19
LAN 10M/100M 103016 82163 0 941 146 22:41:45
WLAN 11M/54M 128829 104462 0 998 97 22:41:34


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7168 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 38 db 11 db
Noise Margin 9 db 24 db

[Raz]

Yes my socket looks like the one in the picture, unscrewing it fills me with dread thou. Let me see what i can do.

[Raz]

Ok that wasnt so tough. Ive moved my router downstairs, removed the bottom panel and plugged the router directly into the socket. Now connected wirelessly again and these are the new stats.

System Up Time 00:02:53
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 671 734 0 1106 2226 00:02:24
LAN 10M/100M 152 0 0 227 0 00:02:49
WLAN 11M/54M 803 738 0 2278 1053 00:02:38


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 37 db 11 db
Noise Margin 7 db 23 db

Hope that helps in some way.

[Raz]

im constantly losing the wireless connection. 3 times already it dropped so im bringing the router back upstairs and connecting thru a cable. Dont know if thats relevant at all.

Edit: I have to leave for a couple of hours. Thanks alot for the help to date.

[Sebby]

Your internal wiring is adding a bit of noise; now that you've moved to the test socket, you're getting the highest possible sync of 8,128k, which would give you a profile of 7,150k. But, that's something we can look at at a later date, because the stats from the extension socket are absolutely fine, and the BT speed test results show that your profile is correct for the sync.

So, the only issue is the throughput, for which there is no logical explanation given all the information you've provided. Definitely send IDNet an email or give them a call on Monday and they will most probably get onto BT about this. Throughput of 3,500k on a 6,000k is not acceptable and I'm sure IDNet will agree.

Once the fault is sorted, you might want to think about removing the ring wire from all the sockets in your property. This should reduce the noise picked up by extension wiring, and allow you to achieve full sync at an extension socket. But, like I say, things are looking good at the moment anyway in terms of your connection rate and stats; it's just the throughput issue, which is not likely to be something at your end.

Let us know how you get on, and I hope this helps.

[Dopamine]

My download speed has been up and down ever since joining IDNet at the beginning of Feb. Off peak it's always great, 6.6mbps with a 7150 profile, but evenings and afternoons it only occasionally reaches that high. Today it's been hovering between 1.5 and 4mbps.

I'm sure my hardware is fine, so I figure it's contention somewhere. IDNet is far better than Pipex ever was, because of the absence of traffic management, but the consistent speeds I was expecting just haven't materialised.

Here's a BT Speedtester result from a couple of minutes ago:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 7150 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1865 kbps

[Sebby]

All I can say is that it's not normal for IDNet; speeds are consistently good be it day or night, weekday or weekend, so there must be some other underlying problem. From the information you provided, it doesn't look like there is anything wrong at your end; in fact, everything looks great. Therefore, I'd urge you to speak to IDNet, who I'm certain will get to the bottom of this for you. I suspect the issue lies with BT (perhaps a faulty line card at the exchange).

[Raz]

Your internal wiring is adding a bit of noise; now that you've moved to the test socket, you're getting the highest possible sync of 8,128k, which would give you a profile of 7,150k. But, that's something we can look at at a later date, because the stats from the extension socket are absolutely fine, and the BT speed test results show that your profile is correct for the sync.

So, the only issue is the throughput, for which there is no logical explanation given all the information you've provided. Definitely send IDNet an email or give them a call on Monday and they will most probably get onto BT about this. Throughput of 3,500k on a 6,000k is not acceptable and I'm sure IDNet will agree.

Once the fault is sorted, you might want to think about removing the ring wire from all the sockets in your property. This should reduce the noise picked up by extension wiring, and allow you to achieve full sync at an extension socket. But, like I say, things are looking good at the moment anyway in terms of your connection rate and stats; it's just the throughput issue, which is not likely to be something at your end.

Let us know how you get on, and I hope this helps.

Thanks for the advice. Ive sent IDnet an email and will let you know if they can sort me out.

EDIT: Out of curiosity i ran another speedtest just now

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  7488 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1396 kbps

Im guessing thats not good at all?

[Sebby]

Nope, not good at all! You should be getting 5500+ I'd say. This issue is in good hands now, though. 

[Raz]

Nope, not good at all! You should be getting 5500+ I'd say. This issue is in good hands now, though. 

I really hope so. My other issue, the frequent disconnections just happened again while i was playing poker. Out of the blue the green i with a circle round it on the router turns orange and flashes for about a minute, then connection is restored, but not before mucking any hand i was involved in and costing me serious cash. This frustrates me more than anything and i just dont know what do to about it anymore. To date ive replaced my router, all cables, the microfilters, even my ISP. Im starting to think ill have to move home just to get a stable connection... quite depressing.

[Rik]

Hi Raz

Your stability problems are nothing to do with the ISP, unless you unbundle, you'll take them wherever you go. The probability is that your internal house phone wiring is an issue, and you need to resolve that, as Sebby has said. Once you're sure that's not an issue, then get IDNet to test the line, and they'll get a BT engineer out if required. Be aware, though, that he will connect at the test socket (creating one if needs be), and if he finds no fault at that point, you will be looking at a bill of £160+. However, it may be you have a problem with the exchange pair, or a jumpering fault at the exchange, that can be fixed and with IDNet you have an ISP who will make sure it happens.

[Raz]

Hi Raz

Your stability problems are nothing to do with the ISP, unless you unbundle, you'll take them wherever you go. The probability is that your internal house phone wiring is an issue, and you need to resolve that, as Sebby has said. Once you're sure that's not an issue, then get IDNet to test the line, and they'll get a BT engineer out if required. Be aware, though, that he will connect at the test socket (creating one if needs be), and if he finds no fault at that point, you will be looking at a bill of £160+. However, it may be you have a problem with the exchange pair, or a jumpering fault at the exchange, that can be fixed and with IDNet you have an ISP who will make sure it happens.

Hi Rik

Im confused again. I know Sebby mentioned that i was getting a bit of noise, but also stated that "the stats from the extension socket are absolutely fine". I took that to mean that whilst the internal wiring was causing some slowdown, it was nothing major and isnt the reason for the poor throughput. Or are the poor speeds and the poor stability 2 seperate issues?

I'll get someone to look at my wiring, if you think that will help. Im just not sure exactly what im asking him to check.

[Rik]

Poor speeds and instability are often related, Raz, though you don't seem to be losing much by using the extension. However, the connection drops are always a local issue, ie between your equipment and the exchange, and nothing to do with the ISP. One of the most common causes of them is bursts of noise. Removing the ring wire from terminal three of all sockets is a good start in reducing the pickup of noise. Something else you might want to try is disconnecting your Sky box from the phone line - they have been known to put massive amounts of noise on the line. Unless you have a multi-room setup, Sky don't tend to police the connection.

When the router was connected to the test socket, and therefore everything else was disconnected, did you have greater stability? The wireless connection dropping is a completely separate issue, btw, and could be signs of a fault in the router or, more likely, interference from a nearby network. Changing from the default channel to either channel 1 or 6 might help in that respect.

[Raz]

I'll try disconnecting sky and see if that helps. Another thing ive just remembered, when we recieved phonecalls i often got the dreaded orange light and connection dropped. Does that shed any light?

I'll also look into removing this ring wire thingie. Heck at this point id happily run round my house naked for an hour if you told me it might do the trick!

The router wasnt in the test socket long enough to do anything other than grab the stats. The wireless d/c's made it impossible to do anything really.

EDIT: Could sky be a problem, even though its connected to the main socket and the router is connected to the extension upstairs?

[Rik]

I'll try disconnecting sky and see if that helps. Another thing ive just remembered, when we recieved phonecalls i often got the dreaded orange light and connection dropped. Does that shed any light?

You could have an HR fault then, or a faulty filter.

I'll also look into removing this ring wire thingie. Heck at this point id happily run round my house naked for an hour if you told me it might do the trick!

Just don't post the video.  Instructions are here:

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1904.msg31528#msg31528

The router wasnt in the test socket long enough to do anything other than grab the stats. The wireless d/c's made it impossible to do anything really.

If you can stand the experiment, and the other suggestions don't help, you might want to try it there again for a while to see if things improve. If they do, it's almost certainly your wiring, if they don't, it's probably a BT fault.

[Lance]

Have you tried replacing all the filters? Sometimes if the connection drops when the phone rings it could be down to a dodgy filter.

[Rik]

The other thing I forgot to mention, Raz. If you have a MW transistor radio, tune it off station, so you only have white noise, then walk around with it, near your phone wiring, sockets etc and also around the router & Sky box. If the noise gets markedly louder, you've found one source of your problems.

[Raz]

Lance, thanks for the suggestion. Ive just ordered 2 new adsl nation filters from the site suggested in Riks self help thread.

Rik, ive unplugged sky and managed to wiggle free the orange wires from trap 3 of the main socket. I cant however take out the wire from the upstairs extension without a tiny screwdriver which i dont possess. I'll try again with that tomorrow.

I cant find a transistor radio so cant perform that test.

Ive redone my router stats after the changes. The noise margin is alot different to the other stats i posted... tell me thats a good thing!

System Up Time 06:58:03
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 698 718 0 304 617 00:08:10
LAN 10M/100M 32951 31119 0 817 263 06:57:59
WLAN 11M/54M 750 18 0 8 0 06:57:48


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7904 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 38 db 11 db
Noise Margin 1 db 25 db

[Rik]

Your sync speed has gone up,, Raz and this is about the noisiest time of night, so your margin has gone down. If the line holds overnight, the NM should return to normal.

[Sebby]

Hi Raz,

If you don't remove the ring wire from all sockets, it'll have no impact, so at present nothing will have changed.

The noise margin has unfortunately moved in the wrong direction (higher is better), but that's probably down to the fact that night time is more noisy, and so it tends to degrade. Tomorrow morning you'll probably find it has increased again.

I hope this helps.

[Raz]

I got excited there for a minute. What was that noise? Oh yea that was me crashing back down to earth with a bump.

I'll try get that wire from the extension tomorrow when i find a little screwdriver.

Thanks for all the help youve given me today. Its appreciated.

[Rik]

Raz, a pair of side cutters or long nose pliers will also do the job...

We're glad to help, it's what we're here for.

[Inactive]

I'll try get that wire from the extension tomorrow when i find a little screwdriver.

Nail file?? 

[Sebby]

Pleasure. Let us know how you get on.

Your sync is very decent, and the profile is correct. Unless it's errors that are to blame (I think unlikely) removing the ring wire isn't going to help your throughput (though it may allow you to achieve full sync in the long term). You'll still need to get onto IDNet, I'd imagine.

[Raz]

Nail clippers... now why didnt i think of that.

New stats with wire upstairs clipped.

System Up Time 16:58:07
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 508 460 0 1302 1781 00:01:31
LAN 10M/100M 37689 34434 0 401 117 16:58:03
WLAN 11M/54M 1338 18 0 6 0 16:57:52


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 38 db 11 db
Noise Margin 9 db 25 db

Speedtest

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4651 kbps

Actual dowload speeds are still between 150-200 though. Im guessing the improved test results are mainly due to the time of day?

Anyway, ive emailed IDnet support asking for help and have pointed them to this thread. Ive ordered new filters just in case thats causing a problem. I guess i just sit tight now and hope IDnet can sort me out.

Thanks again guys.

[Rik]

Curiously, your attenuation has gone up 1db, Raz, but your noise margin has increased by 2db, which is good - as you sync at 8128, a bigger noise margin indicates you have more headroom. Clearly, the profile needs to adjust still, but there is something else going on, so IDNet will test the line and take it from there. Let us know what happens will you?

[Sebby]

As far as the stats go, everything is fine, and you're now getting full sync with the ring wires removed. In 3-5 days, the profile should update to match this new sync (7,150k).

But, even for your current profile, the download speed is still looking a bit on the low side, and I suspect it'll be lower tonight too (in line with what you've been experiencing to date).

So, the foundations are laid for the best speed possible, if you like, but there's something strange happening that's limiting your throughput, and this is one for IDNet.

[Raz]

I recieved this email from IDnet support today:

Hi Dave

In light of your actual throughput being so low verus your sync rate and IP profile I had a chat with the specialist helpdesk within BT to have a look at your line.

The first thing he picked up on was your IP profile was about 1mb out from your sync rate, so has put something in place to get that more in line which with any luck should improve the situation overall.

On checking the utilisation for your exchange, whilst it's not massively over contended what was mentioned was you have overall 25mb of bandwidth at the exchange with up to 700 users trying to get some over that at any given time. This would explain your low throughput despite good stats otherwise.

The exchange status isn't at it's peak utilisation just yet but appears to be heading that way and as soon as it does get to peak utilisation obviously BT will upgrade the exchange - as I've witnessed in previous cases.

So in conclusion with the help of BT it's been recognised as a contention issue which should be resolved the next time the exchange is upgraded

Im not sure i understand it. Didnt we already correct the IP profile being 1k out from the sync rate when i removed the ring wires? Also, my exchange has just been upgraded (less than 6 months ago) according to AOL. It was the upgrade that started all the slow download speeds afaik. If the entire Goole exchange are experiencing the same speeds as me due to excess demand on the exchange, i guess thats something i can easily check, but in no way are my frequent disconnects because of strain on the exchange. I have a friend down the same street on a basic broadband package with BT and he never suffers disconnections.

I feel a bit fobbed off but would appreciate your comments before i give them a ring back, as i really dont understand most of this.

Heres my latest stats etc from 20 mins ago.

Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 188001 254058 0 225 2471 22:55:12
LAN 10M/100M 247365 189304 0 2512 279 22:55:36
WLAN 11M/54M 1432 0 0 5 0 22:55:25


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8128 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 38 db 11 db
Noise Margin 10 db 25 db

IP profile for your line is - 7000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3642 kbps

I downloaded something this morning at around 150kb/s. Right now im downloading at a miserable 90kb/s

[Gary]

When you say AOL said your exchange was upgraded earlier did they mean it was upgraded to a LLU? That means companies put their own equipment in rather that it just being BT lines only, I would tend to believe IDNet over AOL any day, without going through all the posts where is your exchange if you don't mind me asking? That way maybe we can look up to see if that was what AOL meant and it ties in with the time you contacted them, rather than what IDNet mean as in the exchange will be upgraded due to contention issues which would be completely different you see.

[Raz]

The exchange is at Goole. I dont know what a LLU is - AOL told me it was upgraded to 8mb from ?? around Oct/Nov last year at a guess. I remember having connection issues at the time of the upgrade and getting an email from AOL telling me it was normal while the exchange was upgraded, but should settle down in a few days. Trouble was, mine never did. I got speeds of 30ish kb/s for a long time after that and all the while AOL kept telling me that my line was fine - nothing they could do. Finally they acknowledged that there was a fault on my line and fixed it. I recieved good speeds (450ish) for a few days then it settled back down to 150ish and has stayed there ever since.

[Gary]

Your exchange was adsl max enabled which is what you are using now on the 31/03/2006 so I think AOL meant they put their equipment in on the dates you spoke to them, LLU is their own equipment to enable their own service without using BT's stuff so its not the same as the upgrade IDNet are talking about, you can see the information here. http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange.php?ecode=MYGOO Talk talk put their equipment in around October and since they took over AOL this is what they meant I would imagine, what IDNet have told you is all to do with the BT side of the exchange, and nothing to do with what AOL told you

[Gary]

If you look here http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/ you will see your exchange is listed as red which is congested  BT is reporting that some of the virtual paths at this exchange are not operating within BT Wholesale's planning guidance, although they are still operating within the product specification.

At busy times, your ADSL connection may operate at a reduced speed, although not all customers on your exchange may be affected. You should only contact support if there is no current ETA date set.

The ETA fix time is: 28 Feb 08 but that fix date can vary as its BT doing the work

[Raz]

Thanks for digging this up for me. Im still not convinced this is my problem though. It says "at busy times i might experience reduced speeds". Ive been experiencing them constantly for months. Also the disconnects seem to be unique to me, not a problem with the exchange. At least it looks like some sort of fix to the congestion coming on or around 28 Feb.

[Gary]

Well your exchange has been red for a while so it would make sense, also what is written and how your exchange behaves can vary if you have lots of users trying to get on at any time of day its going to happen, so its BT's issue not IDNets as you can see, and a fix is on the way so hold tight and it should get better

Exchange status
red     04 Feb 08    
red    21 Jan 08    
red    07 Jan 08    
red    31 Dec 07    
red    24 Dec 07

[Rik]

I feel a bit fobbed off but would appreciate your comments before i give them a ring back, as i really dont understand most of this.

I'm not sure why, Raz. IDNet have spotted the issue, raised it with BT and got an assurance it will be resolved. The element between you and the exchange is completely in BT's hands, and all IDNet, or any ISP, can do is pursue the matter with them, which they have. Until BT do the next upgrade, there is no instant fix.

Did you mention the disconnections to IDNet?

I agree with Gary that AOL (Talk Talk) were talking about LLU equipment, which is no longer relevant as you are on BT equipment.

[davej99]

Forgive me if my intervention is daft. Do we have any recent BT test results that are really really bad or is it just file download that is the problem? The last two BT results posted were 3642 today and 4651 yesterday - tolerable if over contended. This does not stack up with the 150 and 90kb/s that straddle the last test today. Surely BT have to address the problem if it is that bad and it can be proved using a BT result. (Take it that is bits not bytes btw, or a dodgy speedtester or server).

[Raz]

I'm not sure why, Raz. IDNet have spotted the issue, raised it with BT and got an assurance it will be resolved. The element between you and the exchange is completely in BT's hands, and all IDNet, or any ISP, can do is pursue the matter with them, which they have. Until BT do the next upgrade, there is no instant fix.

Did you mention the disconnections to IDNet?

I agree with Gary that AOL (Talk Talk) were talking about LLU equipment, which is no longer relevant as you are on BT equipment.

I guess ive just had these problems too long and am still scarred by the AOL CS experience. If congestion is the problem and a fix comes my way around Feb 28th ill be thrilled. The only thing that bothers me is that noone ive talked to in my area have had similar problems. Id have thought half of Goole would be in uproar if they'd had similar experiences.

I mentioned the disconnects to IDNet initially but not specifically in my email - though i did point them to this thread. I have to admit they havent been as frequent since i switched, Saturday night was the last one i noticed. The disconnects are strange though, i can be fine for awhile then out of nowhere get disconnects every half hour or so for days on end. It really is quite random so all i can do is keep an eye on it.

[Rik]

Forgive me if my intervention is daft. Do we have any recent BT test results that are really really bad or is it just file download that is the problem? The last two BT results posted were 3642 today and 4651 yesterday - tolerable if over contended. This does not stack up with the 150 and 90kb/s that straddle the last test today. Surely BT have to address the problem if it is that bad and it can be proved using a BT result. (Take it that is bits not bytes btw, or a dodgy speedtester or server).

That's the problem, Dave, the BT tests are poor, but not outside their standards. Nothing else is accepted by BT as proof of speed, with some justification, as outside factors come into play, eg the host server is heavily loaded.

[Rik]

I guess ive just had these problems too long and am still scarred by the AOL CS experience.

IDNet's a different company, Raz, and they will not fob you off. However, as with any ISP using the BT IPStream service, they can do nothing directly about the link from you to the exchange unless there's a fault. Congestion is entirely in BT's hands. That said, if you are the only one affected, and you are having frequent disconnections, it could be evidence of a line or equipment fault. However, that includes all your internal phone wiring, filters and router, so you need to be sure you have eliminated them as the problem before asking IDNet to get an engineer out as it will cost your £160+ if they do and he/she finds the fault to be on your side of the master socket.

One thing I'm not 100% clear on. When you talk about disconnections, you are talking about the router losing the connection to the exchange and not you losing wireless connection to the router aren't you?

[Raz]

Rik, i hear what youre saying, i guess im being somewhat impatient. Best thing i can do is wait until i get these new filters which eliminates another possibility, wait until the Goole exchange is upgraded around the 28th and then see how my performance is. If its still too slow ill scream for help again.

My router is connected to the pc by cable, i dont connect wirelessly. All i know is the little green i on the router turns orange and flashes for awhile, i lose my connection then after a minute or so it turns green again and i get the connection back. I guess that means i lost connection to the exchange?

After reading dave's post i ran a test with speedtest.net which threw out a suprisingly low speed of 1306. Ive ran tests from there before and its always been really high /shrug

[Rik]

These disconnection are puzzling me, I'd expect the dynamic line management software to be trying to stabilise the line by increasing the target noise margin and, thereby, reducing speed, but that doesn't seem to he happening.

It might be worth asking IDNet how many re-connections they can see from their end.

[davej99]

I have correlated http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html with BT and it is close enough to pick the moment to run the BT Test and get a bad result. Otherwise the three hour limit makes it hard to hit the low point.

The fact that today 150kb/s and 90 kb/s is straddling BT of 3642kbps makes the low results suspect. That certainly needs cross checking with think broadband and I suggest http://st.tstools.co.uk/ as well. I find both more reliable than Speedtest.net which uses a very small download.

I also use http://static.btopenworld.com/broadband/adhoc_pages/speedtest/files/largedownload.me to initiate a big download to see how file download is working for a relatively quiet site. Remember to times by 8 to convert Bytes on file download to bits on speed test.

[Raz]

These disconnection are puzzling me, I'd expect the dynamic line management software to be trying to stabilise the line by increasing the target noise margin and, thereby, reducing speed, but that doesn't seem to he happening.

It might be worth asking IDNet how many re-connections they can see from their end.

I disconnected alot last Tuesday night, but that correlates to the problems in Sebbys post here http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6185.0

When i first talked with IDNet support they said they could see those d/c's at their end. I remember d/c'ing again on Wednesday but IDNet told me they didnt see that one. The next d/c i remember was Saturday night. I havent asked them about that, but in light of the fact that they arent nearly as bad as they have been in the past (the disconnects) ill keep monitoring it. Maybe the bit of troubleshooting we did on Saturday night will have helped? I'll start keeping a log of any future disconnects incase it gets bad again.


Thinkbroadband test:

Date 25/02/08 16:31:51
Speed Down 828.66 Kbps ( 0.8 Mbps )
Speed Up 371.99 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk


Download speed from the link dave supplied was 40kb/s... its getting worse, im now fairly certain im cursed.

[Rik]

The Netgear logs disconnects, and you can set it to email you the log each day. That way, you'll see the whole pattern and not just what happens when you're using it. You might also want to run Routerstats from http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm. With that running on the PC (try leaving it running for 24 hours, just turn the monitor off when you're not using it). With that, you can see if the line is dropping sync when there's a noise burst, or whether something else is going on.

It does look like you have a badly congested exchange, though, so hopefully it will pick up on Thursday.

[davej99]

Hi Raz.

Try thinkBB using the port 80 option. Your 40kb(ytes)/s is 320kb(its)ps, I would keep checking for it to get worse then run BTspeedtester. You are trying to get this under 400kbps so you can hit BT with it.

[Raz]

The Netgear logs disconnects, and you can set it to email you the log each day. That way, you'll see the whole pattern and not just what happens when you're using it. You might also want to run Routerstats from http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm. With that running on the PC (try leaving it running for 24 hours, just turn the monitor off when you're not using it). With that, you can see if the line is dropping sync when there's a noise burst, or whether something else is going on.

It does look like you have a badly congested exchange, though, so hopefully it will pick up on Thursday.

Rik are you talking about security logs? I set those up the other day for some reason.

Saturdays

Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:30 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:36 - Send out NTP request to 158.43.128.66
Fri, 2008-02-22 18:15:47 - Receive NTP Reply from 158.43.128.66
Fri, 2008-02-22 18:15:11 - Router start up
Fri, 2008-02-22 18:29:31 - Loss of synchronization :1
Fri, 2008-02-22 19:00:02 - Loss of synchronization :2
Fri, 2008-02-22 19:08:32 - Loss of synchronization :3
Fri, 2008-02-22 19:09:32 - Loss of synchronization :4
Fri, 2008-02-22 19:34:32 - Loss of synchronization :5
Fri, 2008-02-22 20:15:33 - Loss of synchronization :6

Sundays

Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:30 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:46 - Send out NTP request to 158.43.128.66
Sat, 2008-02-23 17:23:03 - Receive NTP Reply from 158.43.128.66
Sat, 2008-02-23 17:32:07 - Loss of synchronization :1
Sat, 2008-02-23 17:22:17 - Router start up
Sat, 2008-02-23 17:57:37 - Loss of synchronization :2
Sat, 2008-02-23 18:32:08 - Loss of synchronization :3
Sat, 2008-02-23 19:24:39 - Loss of synchronization :4
Sat, 2008-02-23 21:08:41 - Loss of synchronization :5
Sat, 2008-02-23 23:46:59 - LCP down.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:01:14 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:01:14 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:01:14 - Loss of synchronization :6
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:01:22 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:06:37 - LCP down.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:12:02 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:12:02 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:12:11 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:12:15 - Loss of synchronization :7
Sun, 2008-02-24 00:20:20 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2

Todays

Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:27 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:36 - Send out NTP request to 158.43.128.66
Sun, 2008-02-24 14:35:13 - Receive NTP Reply from 158.43.128.66
Sun, 2008-02-24 14:34:37 - Router start up

Mean anything?

Hi Dave. Youre starting to lose me. Whats a port 80 option? and what am i hitting BT with? (im not so bright at this stuff)

[Inactive]

To be honest, it looks like we are going around in circles here, why not just wait til the 28th and see if there is any improvement?.. 

[Rik]

Hi Raz

The entries Loss of synchronisation(x) are the disconnects. You had five on Saturday, from 17:32 to 21:08, plus another couple in the small hours - I wouldn't expect to see more than one in 12-14 days myself. From the look of it, you power down the router at nights?

Try leaving the router on for 24 hours, and leave the computer running routerstats for the same period, then correlate the noise margin against the losses of sync, that may tell us a bit more about what is happening.

I think what Dave is suggesting is to use the TB tester to get an idea of your speed and, when it's low, then doing a BT test. That way, the figures you collect for submission to BT will be bad, strengthening your case for them to do something.

[Raz]

I dont ever turn the router off no. Saturday night was when we were troubleshooting so i was unplugging it, putting it in the main socket, clipping wires etc. Friday i unplugged it and connected wirelessly at IDNet request (thats when i set up the emailed logs). Other than that its always on.

I'll try figuring out routerstats and post the results.

Strangely im pleased these logs are showing so many disconnects... im that used to being told my connection is fine i was starting to think they were a figment of my imagination.

Is any of the info i posted in the logs sensitive info i shouldnt be posting btw? ie ip address or whatever

[Rik]

Hi Raz

The section of entries which read like this:

Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:20 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:27 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:36 - Send out NTP request to 158.43.128.66
Sun, 2008-02-24 14:35:13 - Receive NTP Reply from 158.43.128.66
Sun, 2008-02-24 14:34:37 - Router start up

are router startups (ie after power has been removed or it has been rebooted). You're showing one for Friday, Saturday and Sunday, which is why I thought you might be powering down at nights. There's no confidential info in the logs, if I'd have seen your IP address, I'd have edited the message.

If those startup times for the router don't coincide with times you know you've done something, I would suggest that you try and borrow an alternative router.

[davej99]

Physician heal thyself; how ironic. I just logged my worst ever BT speed result of 2946 down from 6600 early this morning.

Raz, when you run thinkbroadband speedtester there is a "port 80" box to tick which can help (and a "show detail" as well, which tells how the test is running.

All BT speedtester results are logged at BT automatically. You should try to log a good number of poor results to prove your case, If you can log under 400kbps, and you do have to pick your moment, it is under the established minimum and must be acted on as I understand it.

The problem is the test can only be run every three hours, so I suggest you use another speed tester to pick your moment. It is also difficult to initiate the test at peak times, so you have to keep trying. Print out the test and time and date it. If you do get under 400kbps it will initiate other tests, but they are very hard to get working. Others may know the secret.

In any event running BT test results as often as you can, over as much of the day as you can, is a good idea. Keep a record. This is not about beating up IDNET but about logging accepted data. IDNET can then pursue the matter with BT based on hard facts. I happen to believe IDNET have a very good relationship with BT, as we saw from you email, so good data will assist a win-win outcome.

Broadband technology is fragile and immature and we have to accept that customer, ISP and BT have to each play their part. I have just come from a very, very poor ISP. When provided with BT speedtest data BT played their part and quickly showed the ISP had a serious congestion problem. This was not contested and I terminated. I do not think that will happen with IDNET but it might help show there is an exchange congestion issue. Patience and data is the name of the game.

[Raz]

Fri, 2008-02-22 18:15:11 - Router start up - I think this was when i rang IDnet initially and they had me move the router downstairs to see if the extension was causing the problem.

Sat, 2008-02-23 17:22:17 - Router start up - This is probably when Sebby had me plug the router directly into the socket behind the main faceplate downstairs.

Sun, 2008-02-24 14:34:37 - Router start up - I have no idea why this one happened. I was out between 10am and 3:30pm and the router was left on.

Rik are you saying my router could be faulty? Ive already sent one back (AOL convinced me the first one was faulty, but the replacement showed no improvements)

Oh and again, i cant thank you enough for the time youre taking to help me out here.

[Raz]

Dave, thats interesting to know, thanks.

Ive a feeling ill soon be a broadband expert

[Rik]

Hi Raz

Yes, I do fear the router could be faulty, or the power supply to it (either the brick, the connector at the router end, or the connection it's making in the mains socket). A straightforward loss of sync doesn't trigger a router re-start, that's normally only seen when you reboot the router or the power is removed. Keep an eye out for those entries, if they continue, then I'd suspect the router and trying a substitute, if you can, is the quickest way to eliminate it.

We're glad to help, Raz, it's what the forum is about.

[MoHux]

I haven't read all posts in this thread, so forgive me if it's been covered.

I notice that Raz has come from AOL.  They I believe, used an MTU of 1400.
If his router is set at that it could be what is causing the trouble.

Make sure your router MTU is set to 1500 Raz.

Mo

[Raz]

It was set to 1400 yea, so ive changed it to 1500. Thanks for the tip.

[Sebby]

Has this helped your throughput at all, Raz? Good spot, Mo.

[Raz]

Just tested it, looks about the same to me. D/l speed between 140 and 170 and the bt test below.

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 7000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3492 kbps

[Sebby]

No difference. Never mind, BT are looking into it anyway.

[Dopamine]

I've had similar speed problems ever since moving to IDNet. My hardware is fine, my connection is stable, my speed is below what I'd expected at peak times. If I understand correctly, BT will not consider speeds above 400kbps to be worthy of investigation, so although I have many BT Speedtester results in the 2-4mbps range, is there any point me making a complaint?

Most threads here suggest that I should/could see top speeds from IDNet at any time of the day, but I don't. Is this really that unusual?

Here are my BT test results from the last 16 days, all with a 7150 profile, listed in speed order. See how it's usually at its slowest during peak times?:

Time        Speed
17:56       1865
22:20       2075
16:40       2369
21:01       2377
14:43       2461
20:55       2933
17:37       3093
19:10       3953
22:37       4512
17:51       4519
22:22       5016
17:15       5173
21:40       5458
02:22       6297
04:07       6550
02:05       6639
01:14       6682
03:15       6705

I'm more than happy to contact IDNet support, but before doing so would just like to be sure that other users are getting the top speed for their sync irrespective of the time of day.

[Gary]

I have the same speeds and throughput if its midday or midnight, Dopamine, Once once over a period of two days I had throughput drop at 11am but that was last year and put down to exchange work possibly, I have had no issue since  I'll post a BT speedtest tomorrow at midday to show my speed and throughput, as long as I remember 

[Rik]

Hi Dopamine

Collect some BT speed tests and have a word with IDNet, they can take a look at the line and, perhaps, raise it with BT for you.

[Rik]

I notice that Raz has come from AOL.  They I believe, used an MTU of 1400.
If his router is set at that it could be what is causing the trouble.

Good spot, Mo - we've all been staring at the line speeds.

[MoHux]

Thanks NP.  I see he is reporting 'no improvement'.  It may also be a good idea to reboot everything, then test again.

[Rik]

And to check the Windows settings for MTU/RWIN, just in case.

[Raz]

I havent rebooted since yesterday afternoon as ive left routerstats running, so ill do that as soon as i get home and retest.

Rik i dont understand your last comment. How do i check windows settings for MTU/RWIN? What does it all mean anyway?

[Rik]

MTU is maximum transmission unit, the size of the chunks of data to send and receive from the net. Too large and the packets fragment, causing a loss of speed as they have to be resent. Too small and your throughput slows down due to the increased overheads (28 bytes per packet). RWIN is receive window - too small and data has to be sent inefficiently, too large and, if there's an error, a large amount of data has to be resent, again slowing your speeds. Both these figures usually only have a marginal effect, but in extreme cases can be a problem.

There's details on how to check the settings and find the best ones for you here:

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1904.msg31673#msg31673

[davej99]

.... D/l speed between 140 and 170 and the bt test below. .....

    IP profile for your line is - 7000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3492 kbps

Raz,

How did you measure the download speeds of 140 and 170. Are these measurements in kBytes/sec (file download) or kbBits/s (most speedtesters).

It might be a good idea to summarise the BT results you have with time of day, rather like Dopamine did. The BT data seems to show you have a very good connection. If the line was dropping out a lot, the sync and profile would be much lower. Dopamine's data is very helpful because it shows super speeds in the small hours and slowdown in the evening on a max profile connection. I see a similar slowdown in the early evening and pings go out a good bit.

IDNET say they are uncontended, therefore these results have to be attributable to exchange contention. We know Raz's exchange has a problem. So it may be some of us are seeing exchange congestion and contractually that is not IDNET's responsibility. To be fair they do say clearly "Actual broadband download speeds can vary from below 2 Mbps during peak times, up to a maximum of 7.15 Mbps."

We can as a user group verify that the problem is exchange contention if we have some IDNET users with speeds around 6000 kbps that do not see any slowdown. If some of us report a slowdown and some do not, then the IDNET network as a whole is not at fault. That leaves the possibility of a problem IDNET gateway and we have to trust IDNET to address that.

I was a bit sorry to log a BT speed of 2946kbps last night at 5pm on a connection that delivers 6600 and because I know what a failing ISP looks like I will keep checking. My guess is exchange contention is the cause. At the end of the day we have to trust IDNET to keep its house in order and use its good offices to get the best out of BT. 30 day contracts are as good an incentive as we need. No point in beating them up for what they cannot control. I have been in the fire and I am quite pleased with the frying pan.  

[Raz]

My new filters arrived and are now in place and ive rebooted everything as Mo suggested.

New speedtest

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 7000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4440 kbps

Now it gets interesting. Download speeds from the sites i normally use are still low (between 120 and 180kb/s) however i also ran the download from the site Dave posted yesterday (when i tried it yesterday i got a speed of 40kb/s) and the speed was flying today at between 500 and 600 kb/s. What the heck is that all about?

Dave, the d/l speeds im quoting are just the speeds you see in the d/l box, ie they are kilobytes per sec. Im not converting them to bits as used by the speedtesters.

Rik, i ran routerstats overnight as you suggested. Ive now got loads of graphs saved but dont know how to post them here for you to see. Im not sure theres anything exciting about them anyway. The noise graph bounces up and down between 6 and 11 with 10 being the most common by far (at night the average drops 1 or 2 points thou). At 10am this morning the noise dropped to 0 and at 11ish it dropped to -1. Those were the only unusual movements. The line sync graph stayed constant at just over 8000 throughout the entire period.

I had a quick look at the MTU and RWIN tweak thread - looks a bit scary for me, but i might have a closer look later to see if i can figure it out.

[Rik]

Hi Raz

Your profile needs to move a step to catch up with your sync speed, but that's minor. The noise fluctuation on the line is possibly causing data to be re-sent, but you need IDNet to test the line to establish that. It's odd, though, that noise went to -1 at 11, normally that would happen at night. Is there any industrial activity around you?

MTU/RWIN is only scary till you try it, then it makes much more sense. Use TCPOptimizer, make a note of the figures before you start, so you can revert to them. Ensure the router is set to 1500 MTU, then let the app determine optimum MTU for you.

[davej99]

Raz, Is it the site you are downloading that is giving low speeds? It is very common to get poor speeds from heavily contended servers, especially outside the UK. There is nothing IDNET can do about that.

If you got speeds of 600kB/s today from the BT site I sent you it is consistent with the BT speedtests results you posted today. I just clocked it at 500. If you continue to get similar results there is not too much wrong with your set up, bar a bit of tweaking per Rik's posts. I did notice yesterday that the BT site I sent you was unusually slow.

If you are getting reasonable BT speed test results, which you are, the problem has to be the sites you are accessing. Always cross check with the TSTools speed tester and ThinkBB.

[Raz]

Rik, ive had a look at TCPOptimiser and its still spooking me. What do i set the connection speed at? I moved it to 8000 and got a load of changes it now wants me to update. I darent hit yes thou. The changes look pretty major to me and theres about 45 of them. Also i dont know what network adaptor to choose so clicked to modify all adaptors.

Im in a quiet residential street with no industrial activity.

Dave, my main downloads are videos from a couple of poker tuition sites. Both are US based but one has a European server. The speeds are always consistant with other downloads ive done though, such as installing AIM recently and other random stuff. Every download i do is around that 150 mark, so seeing speeds up to 600 today was really suprising.

[Sebby]

The connection speed should be the speed you sync at, Raz. Do you connect via wireless of ethernet cable? The adaptors will probably be called Wireless Network Connection and Local Area Connection respectively.

I really don't think MTU or RWIN is your problem to be honest, though it may help very slightly. You'll unfortunately have to sit tight and wait for your exchange to have more capacity added.

[Raz]

Ok ill leave well alone then.

[davej99]

Raz, If you want to send me a link, I will see what speed I get with one of your downloads.

[Raz]

Raz, If you want to send me a link, I will see what speed I get with one of your downloads.

Thanks, but they are monthly subscription and can ban if they see content being downloaded from different IP addresses, so i darent risk it.

[Raz]

Thought id run another speedtest before i went to bed and its a fast one. No disconnects the last couple of days either. Either tweaking the MTU to 1500 or replacing the filters seems to have made a difference. Hopefully things are looking up.

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 7000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 6184 kbps

[Rik]

Thanks, but they are monthly subscription and can ban if they see content being downloaded from different IP addresses, so i darent risk it.

What would they do if you had a dynamic IP address?

[Raz]

What would they do if you had a dynamic IP address?

I dont know, i dont really understand this stuff, all i know is they warn you about sharing your account when you sign up and tell you they are able to detect misuse. I assumed it was the IP address that would give it away, but maybe its something else?

[Rik]

I don't think it can be the IP address, Raz as many (if not most) ISPs use dynamic addresses. My guess would be that they place a cookie on your machine, unless you had to install any software, in which case they could do it through that.

[Dopamine]

I'm a content provider/seller for a monthly subscription based site selling pictures and videos. Amongst our numerous security measures is one that does monitor the IP addresses using any specific login, and should a handful of IP addresses use the same login, that login will be cancelled. The view is taken that dynamic IP addresses don't change more than two or three times each day at most. I believe that our security guys allow a little more leeway for an IP address range so as to accommodate dynamic address problems, but even then the number of accesses allowed before the login is killed is still very small.

[Rik]

Interesting. Anyone using a modem with a dynamic address could have problems, I guess.

[Dopamine]

Yes, but it's surprisingly few. The file sizes of the content are pretty large and it seems that nearly all subscribers have pretty solid connections. Unfortunately, piracy is such a huge problem that security has to be quite tight, so this is what our security guys have found to be the best method with the least disruption to paying customers. Those that experience genuine problems due to constant reconnects on a dynamic address account for less than 0.1% of calls to tech support.

[Rik]

Hopefully, most people are now investing in routers.