New Member - Ex Nildram

[paulsmith109]

Hello folks! Just a quick note to introduce myself. My migration from Nildram (Tiscali!!) is in progress and I should go live with IDNet on Wednesday. My connection with Nildram was actually extremely good but I can`t afford to risk being transferred to Tiscali LLU/Datastream. I `ve signed up to the `Home Supermax` product so I`ll hopefully post some speed results later this week. I `ve been lurking on this forum for about 10 days now and have been really impressed with the level of knowledge and friendliness here. Any other Home Supermax customers out there who can post their experiences and typical speeds?
See you all later in the week!

[Inactive]

Hello Paul, Welcome, have a welcome Karma..   

Look forwards to Wednesday.. 

[Rik]

Hi Paul

Greetings from another ex-Nildram refugee. I decided to jump ship 15 months ago, when the Pipex influence began to show, and I can honestly say I haven't regretted it for a moment. I'm not on SuperMax, so can't give you any personal experience, but if those members who are on it don't respond, I'll go and round them up for you.

Welcome and have a karma to get you settled.  

[paulsmith109]

Thanks for the reply Rik,

From my welcome email it appears that I will connect via `gw5`. How does your network work? With Nildram you could connect via various gateways by a `round robin` arrangement although this sometimes led to some gateways being congested whilst others were relatively empty.
With IDNet, if I lower and then raise the PPP session, will my connection always route through `gw5` or will it vary as with Nildram. Are there a fixed number of customers (and therefore fixed contention) on each gateway and are new ones brought online as customer numbers grow?
Finally, could someone post their pings to www.nildram.net
Thanks in advance!

[Rik]

Hi Paul

I should, maybe, clarify that it's not my network, all the staff here are volunteers.

If you have a GW5 login, you will always connect via that realm, just as you will always have the same IP address. IDNet guarantee no congestion within their own network, and increase capacity and network capability ahead of the need to do so. In the 15 months I've been here, there has only been one problem, and that was due to an influx of new customers overtaking the already ordered new central. TBH, I never noticed any problems with speed myself, and IDNet did some very nifty load-balancing to minimise impact.

Here's the pings, my line is interleaved, btw.

ping www.nildram.net

Pinging www-v.nildram.co.uk [195.149.33.69] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=23ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=25ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=57

Ping statistics for 195.149.33.69:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 23ms, Maximum = 25ms, Average = 24ms

[Sebby]

You will not regret the move. I'm not on SuperMax myself, but you get faster upload, and traffic gets priority at the exchange.

[Ray]

  Paul, and have another 

[Simon]

  Paul! 

[Niall]

My connection with Nildram was actually extremely good but I can`t afford to risk being transferred to Tiscali LLU/Datastream.

That's why I left. It wasn't actually on my exchange, but Pipex was, so in theory if one buys the other it's all bad. I ran while I still could and haven't looked back.

[Lance]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. 

[RA-1972]

im on gw5 no problems at all great speed . DONT you dl too much though jokeing mate ... and welcome .

[paulsmith109]

Don`t worry! Mostly web-browsing with the occasional modest download.

[paulsmith109]

A quick update following completion of my migration from Nildram. I went `live` with IDNet at about 3 am this morning according to the email I received earlier today. There was a bit of a `cock-up` though as although I ordered `HOME SUPERMAX` I have actually ended up on `HOME LITE` - because of an error by the telephone salesman who took my order, so I am still on 448kbps upstream. It` s in the process of being sorted out and I should be on the correct product tomorrow morning.
First impressions:
Still on a 7150 profile (which I feared I might lose during the changeover from Nildram).
Latency is quite interesting .....
Initially I was seeing pings of about 12 - 13ms (virtually identical to Nildram). Here`s a recent ping to idnet on my new connection:

Pinging www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=59

Ping statistics for 212.69.36.10:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 12ms

I then swapped routers and tried some more tests. Same connection speed (8128/448) but my pings had shot up to approx 28ms - almost as though I had become instantly `Interleaved`. My router confirmed I was still on Fastpath so I continued experimenting by repeatedly dropping/re-establishing my PPP session whilst maintaining synch. My traceroutes don`t appear to change at all in terms of routeing e.g.

C:\Users\Paul Smith>tracert www.idnet.net

Tracing route to www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.2.1
  2    15 ms    13 ms    12 ms  telehouse-gw2-msdp.idnet.net [212.69.63.51]
  3    12 ms    13 ms    13 ms  telehouse-gw3-gi0-1-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.243]
  4    14 ms    14 ms    13 ms  redbus-gw2-g0-1-331.idnet.net [212.69.63.5]
  5    13 ms    12 ms    13 ms  212.69.63.209
  6    14 ms    14 ms    13 ms  www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]

Trace complete.

However I did get vastly differing latency results varying from 12ms on some PPP sessions up to 40ms or higher on others. This is puzzling as it suggests some contention on some pipes perhaps and not others, which surprised me considering no contention is claimed whatsoever on the IDNet network. Could someone with knowledge of the workings of the network explain how many `gateway options` there are for an individual customer when disconnecting/connecting as something is varying between PPP sessions causing massive variations in first hop latency.
Also puzzling on the traceroute I published is the first hop to .....gw2 and the second hop to .....gw3.
My welcome letter gave my logon username as ............@idnet.gw5 so I `m a bit confused.
Speeds so far are OK but not startling:  6895kbps (same as Nildram) early this morning but I am seeing more variable results as I type probably due to exchange contention of between 4000 and 6700kbps
I `ll post some  more results when I eventually get onto the HOME SUPERMAX product tomorrow which should give me more consistent speed tests due to exchange priority.
Anyway, sorry about the long post! It`s really good to be here - just need to learn now how the IDNet network fits together and how it differs to Nildram.

[Rik]

I think this is a question you need to ask directly of IDNet, Paul. I've never been privy to the information you seek.

However, I wouldn't worry too much about the GW2/3 stuff, I get that too, and I'm on DSL4, see below.

tracert www.idnet.net

Tracing route to www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms     1 ms  home [192.168.1.254]
  2    24 ms    25 ms    25 ms  telehouse-gw2.idnet.net [212.69.63.55]
  3    25 ms    23 ms    25 ms  telehouse-gw3-gi0-1-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.243]
  4    23 ms    25 ms    25 ms  redbus-gw2-g0-1-331.idnet.net [212.69.63.5]
  5    23 ms    25 ms    23 ms  212.69.63.209
  6    25 ms    29 ms    27 ms  www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]

My line is interleaved.

You might want to try Ping Graph, from John Owen:

http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm

That will allow you to plot pings over a prolonged period, and you can opt to write a full log, or just a log when the ping exceeds a particular value.

Doing this over a 2 hour period, I found there were odd rogue pings, but otherwise the trace was pretty consistent.

[paulsmith109]

  Here I am again with a further update on my first experiences with IDNet. I `m now on the correct HOME SUPERMAX product connecting at 8128/832 with a 7150kbps BRAS/IP Profile, and all I can say is WOW!!!!!!

Speeds are fantastic! Currently 6896/710 from the ThinkBroadband speedtester as per the link below:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/120418190969076914921.html

Here`s another test result from Speedtest.net: 7055/723 from Maidenhead.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/239803294.png

Latency is also awesome, although I did I have to lower/raise the PPP session to get these pings as my initial session returned pings of 21-22ms:

C:\Users\Paul Smith>ping www.idnet.net

Pinging www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10] with 32 bytes of data

Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=59

Ping statistics for 212.69.36.10:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 11ms, Maximum = 12ms, Average = 11ms

[Rik]

Stop making me jealous.

[Inactive]

Well done Paul, a nice result.

[VaderDSL]

Excellent Paul!

Just wondering, what does lowering/raising the PPP sessions encompass?

I look forward to switching next Wednesday

Here are my tracerts at the moment, I have been told to basically get lost, nothing to do with us by Bethere ISPs support.

Dear Peter How i see you request your mac address probably you are not happy with the service.So about the ping the connection seems ok but about the tracer route i will escalate this issue to my colleague from high technical support to check but i think that this is not in our network.So do you experience the problem again or no because we have the problem all weekends with the our system. Kind Regards BE*Team

C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator>tracert www.google.com

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.249.93.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     8 ms    99 ms    99 ms  dsldevice.config [192.168.1.254]
  2     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  3     *       22 ms     *     83.245.126.125
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5    32 ms     *       32 ms  72.14.232.149
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8     *       36 ms    35 ms  66.249.94.54
  9    33 ms    34 ms    34 ms  ug-in-f99.google.com [66.249.93.99]

Trace complete.

Awesome ... 60 thousand HEC errors within 10 minutes and <1mb of data downloaded.

[Sebby]

I think by lower/raise, he just means disconnecting and reconnecting the PPP session, i.e. not actually re-sync'ing with the exchange, just the ISP. There's an option in most router's interfaces to do this.

[paulsmith109]

  Yes, absolutely correct. Here is a traceroute to google for `Vader`, to serve as a comparison between Be and Idnet:

C:\Users\Paul Smith>tracert www.google.com

Tracing route to google.navigation.opendns.com [208.69.34.230]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.2.1
  2   133 ms    21 ms    21 ms  telehouse-gw2-msdp.idnet.net [212.69.63.51]
  3    34 ms    17 ms    14 ms  telehouse-gw3-gi0-1-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.243]
  4    19 ms    45 ms    39 ms  y-s-2.lon1.arbinet.net [213.232.64.76]
  5    24 ms    24 ms    32 ms  xe-3-3.r01.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.8.137]
  6    17 ms    16 ms    12 ms  83.231.146.198
  7    15 ms    15 ms    13 ms  google.navigation.opendns.com [208.69.34.230]

Trace complete.

[daveluff]

Hi all
Interesting thread (hope I am not hijacking) as I am considering a move to IDNet Home SuperMax from VivaCiti (Entanet) ADSL OfficeMax which is a similar product. Glad to see you are pleased Paul.

Is it realistic to hope for improved latency if I move though?
Pinging www-v.nildram.co.uk [195.149.33.68] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=43ms TTL=55
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=43ms TTL=55
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=44ms TTL=55
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=43ms TTL=55

My latency to game servers has always been average, with plusnet, nildram and VivaCiti all being around the same.

I am 1.9km from my exchange and have no noise on my line that I can detect.

Dave

[Captain K]

Hi Dave

Welcome to the forum - have a Karma!


I get the following on my non-interleaved line:

Pinging www-v.nildram.co.uk [195.149.33.69] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=57
Reply from 195.149.33.69: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=57

Ping statistics for 195.149.33.69:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 21ms, Maximum = 22ms, Average = 21ms

This is probably the slowest time of the evening for me, both it terms of speed and latency.  If you post your router stats some of the more knowledgeable people on here should be able to give you some idea of what sort of performance you could expect.

[daveluff]

Hi and thanks for the reply.
My stats are as follows:
Port     Status      TxPkts   RxPkts  Collisions  Tx B/s   Rx B/s   
WAN    PPPoA       687726  657429    0         332       2721   
LAN     10M/100M  397903  460390    0         900       336 
WLAN  11M/54M    284596  260120    0         1941      122 

ADSL Link            Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4224 kbps    832 kbps
Line Attenuation   45.0 db        31.5 db
Noise Margin        15.8 db        5.0 db

Regards
Dave

[daveluff]

Speed test result

[Simon]

Hi Dave, and 

If you would like to try to do a speed test with the BT speedtester, this is more useful as it provides your profile, however, the tester can be quite temperamental, so perseverance may be required. 

[Rik]

Hi Dave

Welcome to the forum, have a karma.

I'm concerned by your noise margins. The d/s is high, so it looks like your target margin has been set at 15db in an attempt to stabilise your line. The u/s is low at 5db. It may be that your local phone wiring, ie inside the house, is adding to your noise and limiting the speeds you are getting.

Can you tell me please, how many extension sockets (if any) you have, are you running any flat extension leads, do you have the ring wire connected, what is connected to the line other than your Netgear?

[daveluff]

Hi Rik and thanks for your time.
I have a 3 cordless phones so only one phone plugged in.
I believe the BT line in is upstairs and has no device plugged in.
I have two other sockets, one of which I use for my Broadband connection and telephone via a filter that I changed approx. 6 months ago with no effect, and the last socket which again is not in use.
I have checked the sockets wiring and removed wires so that I only have conections at pins 2 & 5, however one of the sockets is weird as it has thick black wire and I did not touch this. I seem to remember that a BT engineer told me about 10 years ago that this was the line in but I am not sure.

Thanks in advance for any help

Dave   

[Rik]

Hi Dave

If it's only a single wire, I am puzzled, but it certainly could be part of the incoming 'exchange pair'. Does that socket have a large capacitor in it?

[daveluff]

Rik

I have opened up the socket to check and confirm I have 2 black wires connected at pins 2 and 5. There is also a large yellow capacitor as you suggest.

Thanks again for any help you can provide.

Dave

[Rik]

Are there no 'outgoing' wires, Dave, to the other sockets (usually blue/white and white/blue)?

[daveluff]

No other wires at all Rik.

[Rik]

Odd. How feasible would it be to open up each socket and photograph it, Dave?

[daveluff]

Easy Rik, will just need to upload the pics somewhere.
I'll go take them now

[Rik]

You can add two pics per post here, Dave, just hit additional options at the bottom of the reply/post box (it doesn't work if you use the quick-reply), max size 512k each. It sounds to me like that master socket isn't connected to the rest, so I'm really trying to identify what wiring is running between the sockets.

[daveluff]

You are right Rik, just plugged a phone in to test the one with the two black wires and it is dead. (sorry for the confusion)
That leaves me with the two sockets both wired to pins 2 & 5 only.
I assume you don't need pics now 

[Rik]

No, but does one of those sockets have a capacitor etc? Also, is the wiring paired, eg blue/white and white/blue?

[daveluff]

Yes Rik looks like blue/white & blue on each and green/white & Orange/white that I disconnected for testing.

[Rik]

How about the capacitor? I'm wondering whether you have another master hidden away.

[daveluff]

Thanks Rik
Yes a capacitor is on the socket that I have my DSL filter connected to.

[Rik]

Shouldn't be too much of an issue then. Could you try moving the DECT base unit to the other socket, or even powering it down for a while and see if the noise margin improves at all?

[daveluff]

OK Rik I will give it a go.

Thanks

[Rik]

If things improve, the DECT unit is giving off the noise, Dave. If they don't, do you have a MW transistor radio that you could wander about with. If so, de-tune it so it's just giving off white noise, and follow the phone line as best you can. If the noise increases, that's the point where the interference (if it's internal) is happening.

[daveluff]

No Improvement moving the phone or reverting to a corded phone Rik.
Reported to Vmy ISP who confirm there is something wrong and they feel it is my BT exchange and looking into it.
Thanks for all the help.

Dave

[Rik]

Glad we could narrow it down a bit, Dave - do let us know what happens with BT.

[Sebby]

Yes, do let us know, Dave. It's always nice to hear when problems are resolved.

[daveluff]

Hi
Well my latency is excellent now
Pinging www-v.nildram.co.uk [195.149.33.68] with 32 bytes

Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=56
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=56
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=56
Reply from 195.149.33.68: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=56

What a difference! I am told that they removed interleaving and that is all.

Thanks again for taking the time to help all.

Dave

[Rik]

Interleaving is reckoned to add 20ms to pings, but as my pings tend to be around 24ms with interleaving on, clearly that's not always the case (in fact, there are various levels of interleaving, and I reckon I must be on the lightest one). Glad you got a result, Dave.

[Niall]

Interleaving in theory would double your ping, or near enough. When I had it on with Nildram (despite asking for the opposite) my ping did double. Gaming servers I was getting 30 pings to were now 60, and the same was for anything else I tested it with, be it 14-20 pings increasing to 28-40; it was always double the normal ping.

When I asked for an explanation of interleaving I was told that effectively the data is sent twice to avoid bad packets.

[Rik]

Kitz has a good explanation of interleaving:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm

[Niall]

Ah, that's a good link. Ta Rik. That actually shows it properly and explains what the person I spoke to was trying to say, albeit badly. It's just possible they resend the bad bits, not the whole thing. When I was getting double pings, it was most likely just coincidence

[Rik]

Kitz is good at explaining things, Niall, and I'm a firm believer in not re-inventing the wheel.

[Sebby]

Kitz has a good explanation of interleaving:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm

That's an excellent explanation, and very useful.

[Rik]

Kitz is our friend, Sebby. She's put together a tremendous resource over there. 

[Sebby]

Indeed she is. It's a great site; there's so much I haven't ever seen before!

[daveluff]

I agree it is a great link and useful to understand.
Cheers Rik.

[Rik]

Have a good browse over there, Dave, Kitz is a great resource.