Loss of synchronization - Normal in first few days ADSL Max connection?

[Thirles]

I'm into my fifth day with IDNet now.

Have a Netgear DG834v2, lastest firmware loaded just over a week ago:
Firmware Version  V3.01.31
ADSL Firmware Version 6.01.00.12

Prior to the switch AOL had me on fixed 1152kbps Down connection speed and testing of my line indicated that a 5.5Mbps connection was likely what my line could take.

I've read several posts in this forum where others had similar issues but thought I'd annoy you helpful bunch by starting a new thread - really thought it might confuse me or the other posters if it turned out to be unconnected.

Anyway, my question is to do with the resynchronisation during the first few days. What's I'm eager to know is if each re-sync of speed should equate to a reference in the log, "Loss of synchronization :#"?

Here's my log:
Thu, 2008-03-06 20:10:18 - Loss of synchronization :4
Thu, 2008-03-06 21:34:50 - Loss of synchronization :5
Thu, 2008-03-06 21:36:46 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3
Fri, 2008-03-07 10:21:49 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3
Sat, 2008-03-08 08:18:33 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:26 - Loss of synchronization :6
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:36 - LCP down.
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:39 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:39 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:47 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:03:43 - Loss of synchronization :7
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:05:43 - Loss of synchronization :8
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:06:18 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:08:13 - Loss of synchronization :9
Sun, 2008-03-09 20:18:45 - Loss of synchronization :10
Sun, 2008-03-09 20:22:45 - Loss of synchronization :11
Sun, 2008-03-09 20:30:28 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3
Sun, 2008-03-09 21:17:16 - Loss of synchronization :12
Sun, 2008-03-09 22:49:06 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.3


I've been logging the speed changes since 6th March but didn't time them but they would correspond to some of the admin logons above:

Connection Speed (kbps) 6912, 6880, 6720, 6592, 6272
Attenuation (db) 42, 42, 42, 42, 42 
Noise margin (db) 6, 2, 3, 2, 8

Before the last drop I did see one time with a 0bd Noise margin but can't be sure if the speed was higher that time, though I suspect it was.


Now my goal is to obtain fast pings and zero packet loss because I play online games with voice comms. So a 5.5Mbps connection is more than enough. But the lack of stability at the moment is causing a little grief, I play a healer in Lord of the Rings Online and got a "Loss of synchronization" twice within a few minutes on a raid last night at the worst possible time and 11 others had to pay for the consequences of my connection, mind you they had been suffering for a while due to my old AOL connection but I had promised them everything was great now with the change of ISP.

So should I wait an see what the next few days bring or take advice I've seen elsewhere on the net:
New power supply/transformer for the router (1,5v)
Replace router to one with different chipset
Revert to older firmwear
Hard reset the router
Use telnet to fix Mode of router
Get BTW to set my speed lower
Get BTW to put Interleaving on
Not play games when raining or when street lights go on


Hopeful of a "wait a day and it will be fine" reply

P.S.
Incase anyone wants a speed test and current connection info as of this morning:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6272 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5120 kbps

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6272 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 8 db 21 db

For my needs this looks peachy now I'm guessing my 0db noise margin was last night when on my LOTRO raid.

[Thirles]

Not fast enough Rik... 

[Rik]

You're going through the pain of the training period, when the BT line management software is trying to find out how fast your line can run. The losses of sync and the gradual reduction in sync speeds are typical of the period, and things will usually stabilise.

One thing you do not want to do is ask for interleaving to be turned on, as that will increase your pings. It might help you to have your target noise margin pinned slightly higher, eg 9db. This will improve stability at the loss of about 500k of sync speed. However, you need to complete the 10 days before that can be done.

A different router might help, Netgears do seem to be susceptible to noise, and I improved my profile by 1000k when I switched to a 2700HGV.

[Rik]

Not fast enough Rik... 

I was typing as fast as I could.

[Thirles]

 

Well I really didn't give you the time to read, saw you viewing the post and couldn't resist

[Rik]

Your humour fits with mine. I figured what you'd been doing. 

[Thirles]

And thanks for the answer, have no problems waiting out the 10 days. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I should be doing in the interim.

I'm kind of hoping they will leave me where I am at the moment. The game latency is great and packet loss is next to nothing (except on a resync). I'm guessing last night was pushing my connection up too much so I hope they have learnt there lesson.

I think many of us that have survived other ISPs have only done so through Humour.
Don't get mad, Get even better ISP.

[Rik]

How right you are, sadly many people never find out that their problems are down to the ISP, instead they believe what they are told.

Have you done the ring wire trick, assuming you have more than one hard-wired phone socket?

[Thirles]

Sadly my fancy phone died on me a month or so back and haven't gotten around to replacing it. So now I have an ancient phone (cira 1740) well 1974 or there abouts plugged in and as much as I would like not to be interupted by friends and family when on line I think it needs the ringwire.

[Rik]

It shouldn't, the microfilter provides the ring current...

[Thirles]

OH

I may look into it then. I took the front off the main plate a few days ago and looked inside. Somehow it all looked alien to me, could be senility because I actually wired up the extension myself a few years ago when I got sky and needed it plugged in for the first year. Sadly the BT line comes in next to the front door and it's not a great place to put a router.

I'm certain that some wiring changes would do me some good though so may have to let BT come in to do their worst or put in a better spec cable to the router myself.

[Rik]

If you remove the ring wire from terminal 3 of all sockets, you should see a significant improvement. At the same time, check that you have wired with a pair, eg blue/white and white/blue, as a split pair is not good for ADSL. You might get some benefit from running a Cat5 or better cable from the master to the router, especially if you fit a filtered faceplate, but that would involve moving the phone to the mast socket.

[Thirles]

Arrgh

Well the 10 days are up and:
Tue, 2008-03-18 20:26:34 - Loss of synchronization :28
Tue, 2008-03-18 20:36:35 - Loss of synchronization :29
Tue, 2008-03-18 21:17:35 - Loss of synchronization :30

Sent an email into Support just now, it's been frustrating with some of these re-syncs coming at the most inconvenient times, gaming wise.

I didn't want to change anything at my end during the 10 day period so haven't changed any wiring or removed the ring wire, just wanted the exchange to sync with my setup and be done with it.

I'm still enjoying the low latency and minimal packet loss compared to traffic shaping ISPs though

[gizmo71]

I'm still enjoying the low latency and minimal packet loss compared to traffic shaping ISPs though

Same here. 8)

One thing I do before a game is whip the ADSL lead out of the wall for a few seconds and then plug it back in. Seems to work wonders in avoiding the syncs whilst playing.

[Simon]

The only thing with that, Gizmo, is do it too often, and the BT software may think there's a problem on your line, and you may end up with a slower connection.

[Rik]

@Thirles

What you're seeing is the training process in action, as noise levels rise during the evening, it's forcing the re-syncs. Eventually, the BT software will find the level at which your line can operate 'safely' What Gizmo is doing by disconnecting, it to force the router to take account of the noise levels when it re-syncs. The line should not then drop again.

@Gizmo

A better technique would be to power down the router for a few seconds. As the power decays, the router sends a 'dying gasp' signal to the DSLAM, effectively waving goodbye. The DSLAM notes this and doesn't see the re-sync as instability.

[Thirles]

The last 3 sync losses were on day 13, had another on day 11.

Sadly Miriam thinks I should not be seeing 30 sync losses, training period or not and wants me to connect behind the face plate and try a different router/filter. I had hoped to avoid setting up my PC in the hallway between kitchen door, front door and the stairs

I don't have long cables nor spare router but may be able to lone one from IDNet if I need to.

What I find odd is that I thought this training period was to determine what my line could take and give me the connection speed to suit.

I wont be able to afford a BT visit and rewiring til the middle of next month so setting up two PCs in a cramped hall for gaming is not going to be fun. 

Anyway I'll be moving to the test socket an an hour or two.

[Rik]

The test socket just eliminates your internal wiring and is not a permanent solution, but a diagnostic. If the problems stop, the issue is with your wiring, and a BT callout would be expensive. If they don't, the problem is BT side. If you're using wired connections, each ethernet cable can be up to 100m in length, and you can pick them up, ready-made, quite reasonably.

[Thirles]

Thanks Rik

For the diagnosis my router statistic would certainly improve but these resyncs sometimes don't happen for a couple of days and to prove that the sync loss is not my end I'd surely have to be on the test socket for at least 3 days with no phone connected or at least on the front plate to avoid the extension wiring the router is usually on.

I've got a Balrog to fight in the The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu tonight and imagine what terror this creature would bring to the world if not stopped.

I'll get the longer ethernet cables and in the mean time go test with my gear in the hallway and get some stats.

Here's the log of the sync losses only:

Code Select Expand


Thu, 2008-03-06 20:10:18 - Loss of synchronization :4
Thu, 2008-03-06 21:34:50 - Loss of synchronization :5
Sun, 2008-03-09 04:53:26 - Loss of synchronization :6
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:03:43 - Loss of synchronization :7
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:05:43 - Loss of synchronization :8
Sun, 2008-03-09 19:08:13 - Loss of synchronization :9
Sun, 2008-03-09 20:18:45 - Loss of synchronization :10
Sun, 2008-03-09 20:22:45 - Loss of synchronization :11
Sun, 2008-03-09 21:17:16 - Loss of synchronization :12
Wed, 2008-03-12 04:58:23 - Loss of synchronization :13
Wed, 2008-03-12 20:24:41 - Loss of synchronization :14
Wed, 2008-03-12 23:12:15 - Loss of synchronization :15
Thu, 2008-03-13 04:52:52 - Loss of synchronization :16
Thu, 2008-03-13 18:35:08 - Loss of synchronization :17
Thu, 2008-03-13 21:10:41 - Loss of synchronization :18
Thu, 2008-03-13 21:45:42 - Loss of synchronization :19
Fri, 2008-03-14 00:52:16 - Loss of synchronization :20
Fri, 2008-03-14 04:36:50 - Loss of synchronization :21
Fri, 2008-03-14 22:13:11 - Loss of synchronization :22
Fri, 2008-03-14 23:59:13 - Loss of synchronization :23
Sat, 2008-03-15 19:01:36 - Loss of synchronization :24
Sat, 2008-03-15 19:53:37 - Loss of synchronization :25
Sun, 2008-03-16 04:37:18 - Loss of synchronization :26
Sun, 2008-03-16 18:22:34 - Loss of synchronization :27
Tue, 2008-03-18 20:26:34 - Loss of synchronization :28
Tue, 2008-03-18 20:36:35 - Loss of synchronization :29
Tue, 2008-03-18 21:17:35 - Loss of synchronization :30


It's mostly evenings and early hour sync loss so I'd imaging you'd say it's most likely noise my end. But I still can't understand why BT kept me at the 5500 kbps IP Profile my line was rated for and not attempted to drop me lower as a result of all this.

[Rik]

I can't explain the profile not changing, but at a guess, you're re-synching at a high enough speed to avoid that, which may suggest very short term noise burts.

You don't need to go without your phone, connect it to the filter in the test socket, or even plug the faceplate into that filter. Either way, you still isolate your wiring from the ADSL signal.

[Thirles]

Of course I can plug a phone in lol... not thinking straight, just worrying about balancing my CRT monitor on my Midi tower case up against the front door atm 

[Rik]

Pick up a pasting table from B&Q!

[Thirles]

Pick up a pasting table from B&Q!

A pasting table would fill the hall, have one in the garage.

[Rik]

I see your problem. A wall mount for the monitor, then? If you're anywhere near me, I have a 30m ethernet cable you could borrow.

[Thirles]

No worries, I'll get some cables in a day or two.

Did I mention my 2nd PC?

[Rik]

I only had the one long cable sitting around.

[Thirles]

Sitting on the second step of the stairs, midi tower PC between the kitchen
and front doors, CRT monitor on the PC box now

Ran various tests to check the router stats with different configurtions:

Stats on normal state house wiring:
System Up Time 386:19:54
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 3374514 5224591 0 488 4827 158:02:12
LAN 10M/100M 49579047 55530211 0 1796 1101 386:19:49


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6368 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 7 db 22 db

Stats at test socket:
System Up Time 00:11:30
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 28 90 0 4 10 00:10:39
LAN 10M/100M 404 349 0 269 65 00:11:25


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7456 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db

bt speed test at test socket:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  7456 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5149 kbps

after a power down on router still on test socket:
System Up Time 00:01:55
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 18 27 0 12 28 00:01:27
LAN 10M/100M 364 274 0 1518 314 00:01:51


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7328 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db

Power down on router changed adsl filter
System Up Time 00:04:00
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 19 51 0 11 37 00:03:18
LAN 10M/100M 1074 1168 0 1354 880 00:03:55


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7040 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 22 db

Switched back to connecting on extension wiring:
System Up Time 00:04:26
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 19 50 0 9 29 00:03:56
LAN 10M/100M 511 384 0 904 182 00:04:21


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6976 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 20 db

Power down and connected to Master socket:
System Up Time 00:02:57
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 17 37 0 15 47 00:02:06
LAN 10M/100M 160 106 0 365 75 00:02:52


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6944 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db

Sent these results off to suport, thought I'd get a second opinion from you guys, off to get a cushion for the bottom step where I hae been forced to move to.

[Rik]

Don't make any more changes! You're getting very near the point at which the line management software will decide your line is unstable and lurch into action.

Clearly your internal wiring is picking up noise, resulting in a significant drop in sync speed. A filtered faceplate with a Cat5 cable run to the router would probably be a good idea, but for starters, disconnect the ring wire from terminal 3 at every socket.

[Thirles]

@Gizmo

A better technique would be to power down the router for a few seconds. As the power decays, the router sends a 'dying gasp' signal to the DSLAM, effectively waving goodbye. The DSLAM notes this and doesn't see the re-sync as instability.

I followed this advice in powering down.

I have one master socket with one extension that my router is normally on, so only one ring wire unless I delve into BT territory, guess I'll leave the connection up an hour or so before doing this if you think bt software may react. Kinda think I'd be better off if the did drop my profile so wouldn't be suseptible to re-syncs, no?

[Rik]

That advice on power downs is for general use. Ten or more re-syncs in an hour is seen as instability no matter what (USB modem users take note). You should be able to remove the ring wire without powering down the router, then just re-sync tomorrow morning and see what your speed is (because you will be getting into increased noise by then, so will get a lower speed).

What you could do is ask support to get your noise margin pegged at 9db. This will reduce your sync speed by 500k or so, but will improve stability. Another possibility would be to pick up a 2700 router, that both improved my stability over the Netgear and my sync speed (+1000k).

[Thirles]

With salves for my sore butt, dressings for the wound caused by the hall cloakroom door handle (yes I found another door adjacent to the new "workstation") and the carpet cleaner for the spilt tea, finances are tight atm for a load of new gear and bt wiring visit. Middle of next month I'll be able to splash out though

Sadly my last test was the master socket so would have to disconnect to access the ring wire, will wait til I get a reply from IDNet support anyway.

[Rik]

I don't think you'll need to get BT involved, unless you're very unlucky. I suspect the ringwire may be enough to solve the problem.

[Thirles]

disconnected ring wire from extension,
moved evertthing back to extension in living room:
System Up Time 00:20:49
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 265 327 0 26 98 00:20:08
LAN 10M/100M 3060 1343 0 658 143 00:20:44


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7488 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 42 db 13.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 20 db

So anything I do at my end just sends the speed up or down the Noise Margin stays the same. My IP Profile has always been set at 5500 kbps for all the speed tests I done over the last two weeks. I raised the subject of pinning the noise margin at 9db with support and asked them what I might expect with even a 12db pin.

Lets hope that the unconnected ring wire will cut down the spikes and keep me stable.

It's frustrating though, everyone sees the speed as the be all and end all and I want stability.

[Rik]

Removing the ring wire has pushed your speed up because it's reduced noise on the line. ADSL Max will try to sync at the highest speed possible with the target noise margin of 6dv (the default). What your tests have pretty much proved is that the ringwire was picking up a lot of noise. It might be worth having a walk around with a de-tuned, ie off-station, MW radio and see if anything near the phone line is giving off noise, eg the computer's PSU.

You may, iac, find that the line is much more stable, but if not, pinning the target margin at 9dn should give you enough headroom, with a sync speed of around 6700-6900, probably a profile of 5500k.

Like you, I prefer stability to speed, and that's what I did.

[Thirles]

Well the speed increased but as the evening progresses the speed remains higher than my profile and the reported noise margin is hovering around 1 or 2db, saw it go to 0db briefly, but no loss in sync. Time for me to take my frustrations out in a virtual world

[Rik]

Netgears are notorious for wildly fluctuating noise margins, but they tend to hold sync down to about -2db (theoretically impossible!). It will take a few days for your profile to catch up with your sync speed - assuming you maintain the latter.