Virgin - the first of many?

[madasahatter]

Virgin announce the introduction of a "three strikes" policy

Three strikes

[Simon]

That's a worrying scenario, not just for illegal downloaders, but for the ISPs they will flood to, who haven't adopted the policy. 

[madasahatter]

Yep - think they're the first to actually announce a policy, so the rest can't be far behind - it'd be commercial suicide otherwise. It will also be interesting to see how they enforce it - a taste of things to come methinks.

[David]

I never download illegal stuff  in fact don't really download anything but would still be affected

[madasahatter]

This is part of the problem David. As has been discussed here before, it hasn't been made clear what technology they are planning to use, and how they will recognise legitimate traffic as against illegal traffic. You can bet your bottom dollar that they will be blocking all sorts of stuff that they shouldn't be.

[David]

Rings bells of earlier.even I hope this is a non runner

[madasahatter]

UNfortunately, they have to be seen to be doing something - the Government has threatened legislation to force ISPs to do it otherwise. Like a lot of other things, the tech savvy will find ways round it, and the torrent client developers will come up with better encryption and/or other systems of file sharing.

It also hasn't been made clear whether, once having been kicked off the internet by an ISP, peeps will be able to sign up with another one, or whether you go on a "blacklist" whereby no other ISP will sign you up. There are still far too many unknowns in it all.

[Sebby]

Interesting.

[Lance]

[Inactive]

I would see it as a bonus for Virgin Customers stitched in to contracts, they can just download some iffy stuff, get booted, walk away.

[David]

theres a thought but there would surely be a tag against you which could stop you getting with another isp,put a block on the line or something.?

[Inactive]

That would open a huge can of worms.

[madasahatter]

theres a thought but there would surely be a tag against you which could stop you getting with another isp,put a block on the line or something.?

Well, to a large extent, what would be the point in an ISP booting you out otherwise? You'd just keep going round and round them. If that's not the case, then it really makes a nonsense of the whole thing.

[Rik]

OTOH, innocent until proven guilty... This would lead to a human rights case in short order if people were not able to connect with a new ISP.

[Gary]

This could set a precedent forcing the hand of other ISP's though

[Rik]

Though there will, no doubt, be a civil liberties action when the first person gets kicked off. It could backfire, with punitive damages being awarded against the ISP.

[Gary]

Though there will, no doubt, be a civil liberties action when the first person gets kicked off. It could backfire, with punitive damages being awarded against the ISP.

Sometimes civil liberties groups are great at shooting themselves in the foot 

[PhilT]

OTOH, innocent until proven guilty... This would lead to a human rights case in short order if people were not able to connect with a new ISP.

Except the Human Rights Act only applies to the actions of government, so there is no case at all to answer if one or more ISPs disconnect or refuse to provide service to an individual.

Phil

[Malc]

This is part of the problem David. As has been discussed here before, it hasn't been made clear what technology they are planning to use, and how they will recognise legitimate traffic as against illegal traffic. You can bet your bottom dollar that they will be blocking all sorts of stuff that they shouldn't be.

Tiscalli already do.

[Malc]

I bet Ricahard's sucking up to the gvmnt so he can get his mucky paws on Northern Rock on the cheap. 

[madasahatter]

Except the Human Rights Act only applies to the actions of government, so there is no case at all to answer if one or more ISPs disconnect or refuse to provide service to an individual.

Phil

Yep - like any service provider, an ISP could easily refuse to sign you up. Thta's why I wondered if there was gonna be some kind of database like the insurance companies use.

[Malc]

Refuse one or two, but when 50% of the population have been struck off, and want to sign up to someone, that's be money.

And we all know money talks, after all that's all this is about, Gordons not getting his 17.5%

[madasahatter]

Refuse one or two, but when 50% of the population have been struck off, and want to sign up to someone, that's be money.

And we all know money talks, after all that's all this is about, Gordons not getting his 17.5%

That's what makes me think that the rest of the big boys will be following suit pretty quickly. Virgin wouldn't want to deliberately hand their competitors punters on a plate.

And i think you're right about Gordon and his 17.5% - if there wasn't something in it for him, he wouldn't give a hoobs ass 

[somanyholes]

they really are taking the complete piss.

http://torrentfreak.com/isp-to-voluntarily-disconnect-file-sharers-from-the-internet-080331/

so, to round it off, they will boot you for p2p, e.g. torrents, but you can have free usenet access, to no doubt illegal material and thats allowed, wtf is going on here. I presume they are just trying to get rid of the uploaders due to the high costs involved of torrent uploads. crazy world ........ ohh and they will have your ip and username associated with that which you will have logged in with, to bust your ass in the future if they see fit.

[Rik]

It does seem they are trying to appease two opposing viewpoints, doesn't it. 

[somanyholes]

rant over,

it's just madness rik, complete madness, now wheres king george.....

[Rik]

He wouldn't understand ADSL, So, you;d have to explain it slowly. 

[somanyholes]

its so mad, it must be madasahatter striking again 

[somanyholes]

you know whats coming now ...

[somanyholes]

those hoobs have hijacked virgin as well.....

[Rik]

 

Are you sure. It sounds much more like new Labour policy to me.

[madasahatter]

its so mad, it must be madasahatter striking again 

Don't blame us hoobs - even we're not mad enough to come up with this 

Bet this is a double bluff by the mouse - they're behind it all, and just using hoobs as a front - wouldn't be the first time

Anyway, reading the torrent freak article, the BPI will get in touch with the ISP rather than the ISP realising that your p2ping. So, how isthe BPI going to find out  legally? 

[Rik]

From what I've read, Mad, yes. They simply monitor IP addresses using readily available tools. A simple lookup takes them to the ISP.

[madasahatter]

And how many mistakes are they going to make? 

[Rik]

That's another question, of course, and how will they prove it's their material?

[somanyholes]

sure it's easy enough to view torrent swarms, but recently they have also started demanding data from the likes of easynews and giganews, usenet in that respect is more scary, not only do they have your ip, they also have your username and password as proof, and even your credit card details, if you are busted on usenet, which some people have been , you are bang to rights ..... usenet will be the next big hit after torrents due to some people feeling forced back into it...., so would you trust an isp who leads the way in regards of slapping p2p's for a usenet service ......, where you can apparantly download movies lol

[Rik]

IAC, legally, I would have thought that the BPI would need some form of court process to obtain the information from the ISP. Surely the DPA applies here?

[madasahatter]

But the ISP isn't giving up private details if it is them that contact the customer 

[somanyholes]

if you are busted on usenet, which some people have been , you are bang to rights

apologies, this has been foreign so far .....

[madasahatter]

sure it's easy enough to view torrent swarms, but recently they have also started demanding data from the likes of easynews and giganews, usenet in that respect is more scary, not only do they have your ip, they also have your username and password as proof, and even your credit card details, if you are busted on usenet, which some people have been , you are bang to rights ..... usenet will be the next big hit after torrents due to some people feeling forced back into it...., so would you trust an isp who leads the way in regards of slapping p2p's for a usenet service ......, where you can apparantly download movies lol

you mean you can download illegal stuff from usenet? Well I never  

[Rik]

But the ISP isn't giving up private details if it is them that contact the customer 

Interesting point. If they are calling on the ISP to terminate a contract, surely they need proof of guilt which would stand up in a court?

[madasahatter]

You would certainly think so - or hope so 

[Rik]

Or are the ISPs too afraid of the BPI & Govt. Just what is this power that the BPI seems to have?

[Simon]

I suppose the ISPs are worried that the BPI might be able fine them for allowing their customers to download illegally.  I still can't understand how the ISPs, or even the IP monitoring systems are able to distinguish between legal and illegal material.  Surely, all that can be seen is a data stream?

[Rik]

That's my view, Simon. Unless you monitor the entire stream and re-assemble the files, all you have is 1s and 0s.

[Simon]

OTOH, if they could track the IP to the source, and it was obviously an illegal torrent site, or whatever, I suppose that could be proven, but only that you were connected to that site, and downloaded something.

[Rik]

And how do you define an illegal torrent? It's a minefield, imo.

[madasahatter]

Unfortunately, it's a minefield where money talks. I don't think anyone has the answers - let alone the BPI. It's just another of those "lets do something without actually thinking about it" things

[PhilT]

Interesting point. If they are calling on the ISP to terminate a contract, surely they need proof of guilt which would stand up in a court?

Not really. It's a commercial contract that can be terminated by either party on any grounds covered by the terms and conditions. Were it to come to Court the judgment would be on the "balance of probability"

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html has it well covered :-

2.2. Notwithstanding our right to restrict, suspend or terminate the Services, if you breach this AUP and/or our Terms and Conditions you may receive a formal warning from us specifying the unacceptable conduct and notifying you that repeated breaches may result in the Services (or any part of Services) being temporarily or permanently withdrawn from you.

4.1. You are prohibited from storing, distributing, transmitting or causing to be published any Prohibited Material

4.1.2. infringes or breaches any third party's intellectual property rights (which shall include, but not be limited to copyright, trade mark, design rights, trade secrets, patents, moral rights, paternity rights and performance rights) - this includes the use, distribution and/or copying of any material without the express consent of the owner;

etc etc.

Let's face it Rik, professionals put these T&Cs together to look after their own interests. Nobody on here is going to come up with some magic loophole to protect a pirate - it's like listening to 1st year accounting students with all their "this cannot fail" get rich quick ideas ! 

[Rik]

Fair comment, Phil. It seems a shame to think it will come down to David v Goliath though.

[madasahatter]

Fair comment, Phil. It seems a shame to think it will come down to David v Goliath though.

Doesn't it always though? 

Sledgehammer and walnut innit?

[Rik]

Well, nuts anyway.

[madasahatter]

Yep, but it's only gonna spread further and further - like smooth peanut butter 

[Rik]

I've always been more into baby oil myself.

[madasahatter]

HHHMmmmmmm - not sure U really wanted to know that Rik...... 

[Rik]

 

It's great for squeaking hinges...

[madasahatter]

I've got a few of those these days 

[Rik]

Not just hinges in my case. 

[Inactive]

I've always been more into baby oil myself.

It is quite effective.. 

[Simon]

If fish oil comes from fish, where does baby oil come from?

[madasahatter]

If fish oil comes from fish, where does baby oil come from?

well - you take a nice ripe baby, and squeeze until.................

[Rik]

I've always found it easier to render them in a large pan. 

[madasahatter]

With some lard? 

[Rik]

It comes ready supplied.

[madasahatter]

you chucking some fromage frais in as well to make it a little creamier Rik? 

[Rik]

Olive oil, Mad, it makes the texture better.

[madasahatter]

Bit pongy though Rik?

[Rik]

Only if you have a sense of smell.

[madasahatter]

Talk talk won't talk!

not ISPs job

[Rik]

For once I can find something good to say about Talk Talk.

[Malc]

Queue of Virgin customers heading to talktalk! (and nor here )

[Rik]

There's nothing like a queue of Virgin customers, Malc.

[Malc]

There's nothing like a queue of Virgin customers, Malc.

But, can you find the virgin?

[Rik]

Only when I'm being ridiculous.

[Inactive]

Only when I'm being ridiculous.

[Rik]

I thank you.