Leaving Nildram

[GarryF]

Firstly quite miffed with the forum, spent a fair bit of time writing this post first time round just to have it time out on me and loose the whole lot  (note to self, always copy text in long posts before hitting button)

I requested my MAC yesterday and am 85%(was 90% on first post ) certain I'm going with idnet on the 60GB package (this year I think I'm averaging 10-15gb/month but have been over 30gb in the past), over the last few weeks things have gotten pretty dire which I mostly assoicate with speed test now reporting me as Tiscali

Have been with them for 6 years, and on max for the last two years, initially I had a lot of trouble with Max which turned out to be the Draytek 2800 refusing to play nice no matter what firware etc was tried, plugged in my old 3com officeconnect and things settled down, a year ago I had 6 months or so of stable 800kb/s + downloads from giganews.

the 3com has issues with vista vpn, so I got a netgear DG834n which worked fine, speeds dropped to 600kb/s but I could live with that as it was stable, then after 6 months the router started acting up, I went back to the 3com and things settled down again, this year I reckon I've been getting stable 500kb/s.

then the last few weeks it all goes to pot, lucky if I get 200kb/s in the evening and in general all over the place, speed test from this morning at 8:30am
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/120703485289537513456.html
It's a lot worse in the evenings, I'll check it tonight

I've also attached router stats from this morning, Nildram control panel says my ADSL line speed is 8000Kbps

So is there anything I should look at in the house, the wiring hasn't changed in 6 years, no new handsets etc in the last few years either, can I expect speeds to go back up to what I had a year ago, or at least something respectable?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Malc]

Have a 

Speeds here are great, I came from pipex (Tiscali) and have never looked back.

I'm not one of the techies, but someone will be here soon to answer any probs!

[Rik]

Hi Garry, welcome to the forum.

My immediate reaction to your line stats is that your target margin has been increased to 15db. That suggests you've had a lot of instability, and is costing you something like 1500-2000k of sync speed.

Do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom part of the faceplate can be removed, revealing a test socket behind? If so, is it possible to connect the router to that and see what happens to your figures? I'd expect there to be an increase in sync speed, and if there is, then your internal wiring is picking up noise.

Do you have many extension sockets? What's connected to them? Have you tried disconnecting the ring wire from terminal 3 on all sockets?

You ask a question, I reply with several - just call me Eliza.

[GarryF]

Thanks for the reply, I'll have a look at the sockets tonight.

Orginally I moved into the house early 2002 and had ISDN installed, then 4 months later ADSL became available and the engineer visted to convert things back.

I can think of 6 sockets in the house off the top of my head,

[Rik]

Six sockets suggests plenty of cable to be picking up noise, Gary. ADSL works in the MW spectrum, and your wiring acts as a giant antenna, particularly after dark. The ring wire is the worst culprit as it's unbalanced. The signal pair, being twisted, have a degree of noise cancellation built into them.

[Inactive]

Hi Garry, and welcome.

[GarryF]

you think I should avoid messing with things until after I move to idnet or dive in

All the wiring hasn't been touched since before I moved in, the previous owners clearly hadn't heard of wireless handsets

at the moment the router is in my office in the attic along with a handset, there is a handset in one of the bedrooms and a wireless hub in another bedroom for a few other handsets in the rest of the house, I'd have no problems disconnecting most of the wiring if I could figure out where it all was, house is 1930s and looks like it had a big refurb mid 1990's

What I wonder about is does the main cable come into the room in the attic or did the bt engineer wire me up to an extension socket in 2002? I'll have a look behind the face plate in the office tonight, I'm pretty sure it's not the type with bottom half removing

[Rik]

By 2002, I would have hoped you'd have got an NTE5, but there's no guarantee, Garry. I'd start trying to improve the wiring now, as with a migration you'll bring your profile with you. Your master socket, of whatever design, will have additional components in it, a large capacitor and a surge protector, so it should be easy to spot.

BTW, I migrated here from Nildram 17 months ago, I've never regretted it.

[Inactive]

By 2002, I would have hoped you'd have got an NTE5, but there's no guarantee,

I have had BT out to reduce my line from 2 lines to one line since 2002 Rik, no NTE5 though, still the standard dual socket with one line disconnected.

[Rik]

It seems to depend on the engineer, In, which is unfortunate.

[Inactive]

Agreed Rik.

[David]

  welcome Gary you have made the right move here.I  too was with tiscali and just finishing treatment but the people here soon remedy bad flashbacks...........I don't know much tech stuff but I do know how to say 

[Simon]

Hi Garry, and 

[Sebby]

I have had BT out to reduce my line from 2 lines to one line since 2002 Rik, no NTE5 though, still the standard dual socket with one line disconnected.

That's because you had 2 lines initially, and the engineer probably didn't see it necessary to fit a NTE5 when the second line was disconnected.

[Sebby]

You'll love being on IDNet. I can't really add to what's already been said; definitely try the router in the test socket and see if your wiring is causing you to sync lower than possible, and we'll take it from there.

[GarryF]

Ok, I didn't have much time tonight, apologies to BT there is a socket with bottom face plate, I unscrewed it and plugged the filter and router into the socket, attached are the new stats, quite an improvement. I could see 3 wires clipped into the back of the front socket so I'll have to try unplugging the bell wire tomorrow night in all the sockets,

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Sebby]

Wow, that's a huge improvement! I don't think I've ever seen such an increase!

The wiring attached the faceplate is the extension wiring. Try removing the ring wire (connected to terminal 3) from there and on every extension socket, then see what you sync at on an extension. If it doesn't help so much, one option is a filtered faceplate, which filters the ADSL signal at the master socket, and sends filtered telephone signal to the extensions. It would mean the router would have to be sited at the master socket, which may or may not be possible in your setup.

[GarryF]

and here's a speed test 10:40PM
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/120708607569374829360.html

giganews is running about 300kb/s but very spicky, I use newsleecher and it has a nice graph, used to just go up to cap speed and give a straight line

[GarryF]

I'll try that sebby, I'll also unplug everything in the house etc, I do like your idea on the filtered face plate, that's where the router is anyways so would work fine !!

now if only I could get my MAC code....

[GarryF]

a speed test 24 hours on from yesterday using master socket
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/12071191971065711452.html

attached updated stats with house wiring in play but everything unplugged, looks like over half the drop is due to devices being plugged in, will see if I can eliminate the problem later.

speed test with nothing plugged in
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/12071199619329241589.html

So I'm thinking a filtered faceplate would be the best option, with 6 extensions there's always going to be some interference from the house wiring?

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[Rik]

A filtered faceplate should take the extension wiring out of the equation, Garry. Like Sebby, I've never seen such a marked improvement, which suggests some serious noise pickup, either from the wiring itself or a connected device. Do you have any Sky boxes? They are one of the worst culprits in my experience.

[Sebby]

I'll try that sebby, I'll also unplug everything in the house etc, I do like your idea on the filtered face plate, that's where the router is anyways so would work fine !!

now if only I could get my MAC code....

In that case, definitely get yourself a filtered faceplate and don't worry about removing the ring wires. The ADSL Nation XTE-2005 is highly regarded. You should then get the same sync that you saw when connected to the test socket.

Another benefit is that the extension sockets will already be filtered for telephone, so no microfilters will be needed.

Why can't you get your MAC?

[GarryF]

Well based on above, I started with

4768 - connected devices
6048 - No connected devices
7168 - Master socket

for connected devices, I have a 8 year old BT phone with CLI, I have a 8 year old hands free hub for 2 handsets and there was an extension cable still plugged in for sky but it's been unused for 2 years, I didn't have time to check which devices were causing the drop from 6048 to 4768 this morning.

I'll order up that faceplate, seems like the smartest solution

Sebby, I requested my MAC on monday so I guess they've got until Friday to provide it

[Sebby]

You should get the same sync as you achieved in the test socket with a filtered faceplate, regardless of connected devices.

Good luck with getting your MAC. Remember that your current ISP are obliged to provide it within 5 working days. If they don't, it's probably worth reminding them of Ofcom's rules.

[Rik]

Hi Garry

It does seem to be the devices causing the worst of the problem, but as the test socket shows the best result, I'm suspicious that the cordless phone may be radiating noise which is then picked up by the wiring. A filtered faceplate should certainly overcome that.

Nildram have five working days to process the MAC, but your notice period starts from the day you requested it, not when you receive it.

[GarryF]

thanks for the help guys, making good progress here  I'll try and elimate the noisy devices as that would seem to be just good practise, I've ordered up the face plate and will report back when it's fitted anyways

I requested the MAC at lunchtime monday so I think I'll give them a stern reminder that they are halfway through their 5 days if nothing appears before 5PM tonight 

[Malc]

now if only I could get my MAC code....

I know the feeling, it'll all be behind you soon.

[Rik]

I requested the MAC at lunchtime monday so I think I'll give them a stern reminder that they are halfway through their 5 days if nothing appears before 5PM tonight 

It won't do any harm, Garry, especially if you mention Ofcom in the process.

[GarryF]

ho-hum, just got an email saying faceplates are back ordered, expected in on 4/4 (I bet ) would have been nice to have it fitted before migration.

[Sebby]

As ADSL max is rate-adaptive, it won't actually matter. There's no new training period as you're migrating, so it's not a problem if you don't fit it until after you're migrated.

[GarryF]

As ADSL max is rate-adaptive, it won't actually matter. There's no new training period as you're migrating, so it's not a problem if you don't fit it until after you're migrated.

Cool, that's good to know

[Sebby]

Just one thing to mention; although the sync is rate-adaptive, you may have a wait a few days for the profile to update, but that would apply regardless of when you fit the faceplate.

[somanyholes]

Hi Gary

This may be of interest for your timeout issue, if you are a firefox user.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/115

[Rik]

Though it tends to delete the contents of a post when it refreshes (if you haven't hit post beforehand...).

[somanyholes]

a hah, hasn't bitten me yet that one... cheers rik 

[Rik]

Guess who it has bitten.

[GarryF]

put the two phones back onto the house wiring and getting 6016 so almost the same as nothing plugged in. Then I plugged in the unused extension cable and it's now 6080

I'll keep an eye on speeds until the faceplate arrives, then hopefully it's stay 7000+

After making a change I'm restarting the router, do I need to do that or will the speed drop etc automatically when it detects line interference?

[Rik]

You don't need to re-start for downwards shifts, Garry, only for upwards ones, so if you reduce the potential for noise, re-boot, otherwise you can let nature take its course.

[madasahatter]

a hah, hasn't bitten me yet that one... cheers rik 

that's cos you hardly ever manage to string more than a couple of words together 

[Inactive]

that's cos you hardly ever manage to string more than a couple of words together 

OUCH.. 

[GarryF]

MAC code was in my mail box this morning without having to prod them so not too bad

I signed up with ID net, didn't like the bit when I entered my line and they told me my max speed was 2 Mbs, I've assumed that's just them guessing.

[Rik]

It will be based on the checker database, it has no impact on your actual speed.

[Sebby]

I signed up with ID net, didn't like the bit when I entered my line and they told me my max speed was 2 Mbs, I've assumed that's just them guessing.

Take no notice of it, it's largely fictional. Plus, we know it's not the case.

[Malc]

I signed up with ID net, didn't like the bit when I entered my line and they told me my max speed was 2 Mbs, I've assumed that's just them guessing.

Mine said 2 as well, and I get 7.5!

[GarryF]

Yeah, I thought they were playing it safe, other providers have quoted 6 so just thought it odd they quoted 2, I guess that way no one can complain if it's not faster than that

got their confirmation email, says it will be done by 6PM of the 8th which is next Tuesday, will it probably happen monday night?

[Sebby]

It's not IDNet that are quoting 2Mb; the data comes from BT Wholesale's checker. It's strange that you got different results with different ISPs though. Still, it makes no odds anyway.

The 6pm thing is just so BT get the whole day, but usually migrations take place in the early hours, so you may well wake up on Tuesday and be able to connect to IDNet.

[Simon]

Nice one, Garry, you won't regret the move. 

[GarryF]

adslnation emailed me saying filter went out last night and it arrived this morning 

Just installed it and attached is the new stats, even higher than I got earlier in the week  8)

gigianews is getting 150-200kb/s, still pretty cr*p

and here's a speed test
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/12074054839641832948.html
pretty poor

Considering I used to get 840kb/s I'm kinda hoping a decent ISP will get back to 600+, time will tell though

So after I migrate on Tuesday is there anything else I can do to improve things or will my speed now gradually improve over the next week
What about noise margin, does it reduce automatically or can i request that lowered now I've improved things?


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[Rik]

Can you get a BT speed test done, Garry? I suspect that your profile may give us a clue.

BT often refuse to reduce noise margin if it's been increased to stabilise a line, but given the improvement in your d/s synch speed, it's worth trying to get it down.

[Sebby]

Your profile is going to need to update to match the new sync, which will take a few days.

[GarryF]

I went to http://speedtester.bt.com/ and it's giving me

Test Error
The system is currently busy. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider.

[Rik]

Sadly, that's par for the course, Garry. Try in the morning, it's usually easier then, and use IE rather than any other browser.

[Inactive]

I went to http://speedtester.bt.com/ and it's giving me

Test Error
The system is currently busy. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider.

Keep trying Garry, it showed that for me a couple of times, then magically cleared, mind you that was at around 2.00 am.

Best to try at quiet times, as Rik suggested if it will not kick in.

[GarryF]

Hah, now I see why you said "have you managed to run..." 

I'll keep trying it and post in a week or two when it finally runs

[Rik]

That's the idea, Garry.

[Sebby]

Don't give up. Patience is a virtue.

[Rik]

And her sister is a Carthusian. 

[GarryF]

Had a look on the router this morning and things are looking up

Downstream noise margin has dropped from 15dB to 6dB over the last two days on it's own?

Speed test this morning
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/1207559054354174600.html

and making some notes of ping times before the change

Pinging jolt.co.uk [82.133.85.65] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=55ms TTL=50
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=56ms TTL=50
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=70ms TTL=50
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=56ms TTL=50

Ping statistics for 82.133.85.65:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 55ms, Maximum = 70ms, Average = 59ms

Any other tests you think I can run before migrating

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[Rik]

Hi Garry

The noise margin is meant to reduce automatically, it just doesn't always do it. Have you re-booted the router though, iow is that NM just after a re-sync? If not, it could actually indicate noise on the line, which would also explain why you're not synching at 8128 as I would have expected you to.

Your pings look a bit high, but that could be influenced by a number of factors.

[GarryF]

Hi Rik

I just restarted router and noise went back up to 15dB, same sync speeds as before.

I'm hoping pings might improve with idnet, we'll see tomorrow

[Rik]

Hi Garry

Your line is noisy then, and the margin has reduced from 15 to 6db due to extra noise, rather than any improvements. On a relatively short line, that shouldn't be happening, but Netgears are notorious for flaky noise reporting. Pings could well improve, they are a function of your distance from the remote server and congestion on the network. Hopefully, IDNet will sort a big chunk of that issue out.

[Sebby]

Speed is looking low given your sync, but I suspect the profile hasn't caught up. Otherwise, what Rik said.

[GarryF]

it's all been done over night, just logged in 5 mins ago and first speed test gives
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/120763510113108523675.html

Not a bad start !

giganews goes straight up to 760kb/s, very nice !!!!

pings not much better

Pinging jolt.co.uk [82.133.85.65] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=47ms TTL=58
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=51ms TTL=58
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=55ms TTL=58
Reply from 82.133.85.65: bytes=32 time=52ms TTL=58

Ping statistics for 82.133.85.65:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 47ms, Maximum = 55ms, Average = 51ms

[Lance]

Those higher pings are likely to be because of Interleaving being turned on for your line. Once we have established why your noise margin swings by so much, and the source of the noise, we might be able to put a case together to persuade BT to turn it off.

What are your latest line stats?

[Rik]

Hi Garry

Glad the migration went smoothly. What Lance said...

[Sebby]

Ditto.

[GarryF]

Hi Lance

I'm at work now, from memory sync was a little higher at over 7500, other stats were the same, I'll check tonight when I get home and see how they look

Ping doesn't bother me much, I'm not doing any online fps etc, I'd far rather have a stable line that downloads at 1MB/s when I ask it 

I'd noticed VPN into my work server had been pretty ropey as well over the last few months, will be nice to see if this is a bit more stable now, and I only did the face plate on Saturday so things might get faster yet

Overall I'm delighted, thanks for all the help guys !!!

[Rik]

NP. Welcome to our happy band.

[Danni]

Welcome to IDNet I'm sure the people here will get your line as close to perfection as possible.

[Malc]

Welcome to IDNet I'm sure the people here will get your line as close to perfection as possible.

However, your sanity...

[Rik]

 

For that we give no guarantees.

[GarryF]

I'm probably not sane anyways 

attached is current stats from the router, router was set to dial on demand instead of always on from this morning when I ran through wizard, so it's been connecting a few times today.

I'll try rebooting the router later when the other half isn't online 

giganews is still a rock solid 760kb/s just now in the evening

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

7616 is the theoretical maximum speed for an interleaved line, Garry and will result in a profile of 6500. It would be worth keeping an eye on the error count and, if it stays low and the line stays stable, try with interleaving off (ask support to turn it off). For best speeds, re-boot the router in the morning. For best stability, re-boot it at night.

[Sebby]

Isn't it a 7000 profile on an interleaved line at full sync?

[Rik]

Thanks, Sebby, helps if I don't type the sync speed twice.

[Sebby]

But now you say 6500. I could be wrong, though.

[Rik]

Looking at one thing, thinking another... You know how it goes.

[Sebby]

I most certainly do.

[GarryF]

This gets confusing

Anyways, here's the stats after router restart this morning

So noise is 15dB, and drops over time to 6dB-10dB, I don't quite understand that, your saying that shows there is noise on the line?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

That means your target noise margin has been increased to 15db, Garry, in an attempt to stabilise the line. You almost certainly would have had a period where you were getting frequent disconnections for that to happen. It also explains the interleaving.

When you re-boot the router, it will connect at the highest speed it can with that margin. If you re-boot in the morning (when noise is at its lowest) that will produce the highest speed, but you will see that margin drop in the evening and overnight. If you are picking up enough noise, that may well force a disconnection, and a re-sync in the evening will produce a lower sync speed but, during the day, you are likely to see the noise margin go higher, above 15db.

Just to complicate the issue, Netgears are notorious for having reporting a declining noise margin, but they tend to hold sync down to about -2db (which is theoretically impossible).

One option might be to try another band of router. I moved from a Netgear to a 2-wire 2700, and haven't lost sync since, and my noise margin only varies by a couple of db, compared to the 7db swing I saw on the Netgear. As a result, I gained 1000k on my profile.

[GarryF]

I'm currently using an old 3com, I replaced it 3 years ago with a draytek 2800, then when I went max it was a disaster until I tried the 3com again, then for abotu a year everythign was fine with high speeds etc, then I bought a new netgear about a year ago and speed dropped straight away on giganews etc by 25% but I needed other features at the time.

Then it started playing up about 6 months ago, it was flashing red icon on front which I think meant it was faulty, I tried the 3com back in and everything was fine again.

I'm almost inclined to blame any historical instability on the cr*ppy routers

[Sebby]

What Rik said.

Basically, your router will connect with the exchange at a rate that means the noise margin is equal to the target, in your case 15dB. After having connected, the noise will change, so although you usually see a noise margin of 15dB soon after the router has sync'd, this figure will begin to fluctuate.

To me, it looks like youi have a very good line, and I'm not sure what would've caused instability in the past.

As Rik says, a new router (something not based around the AR7 chipset) may help. Ultimately, the target margin needs to lower, which is supposed to be an automatic process, but if things remain stable, you might want to see if IDNet can get it manually reset, and perhaps get interleaving switched off as it doesn't seem you need it.

[GarryF]

All sounds sensible, you think it makes sense to just leave it for a week or two first? It's pretty good now as is 

[Rik]

Your call, Garry. I'd be inclined to make sure things are stable before changing anything, so waiting a couple of weeks and keeping an eye on the router for any disconnections would be my way.

[Sebby]

Same here.

[GarryF]

bt speedtester finally worked 

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  7584 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 6034 kbps


and another test at the same time
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/120791641525060625676.html

Router has been up since I restarted it 2 1/2 days ago, all quite stable

[Sebby]

Looking good, Garry.

[Rik]

That's about as good as it gets, Garry.

[GarryF]

So after 5 stable days I like to mess with things and tried the Negear DB834N that was acting up a while back, it's still under warranty so if it fails soon I'll get it RMA'd (was being lazy 6 months ago )

Attached are the stats with it, not so good but still acceptable, funny how a 5 year old router out performs the latest ones. The old 3com is a real pain with VPN though

Isit really just a lottery getting fast reliable routers to work? I'm sorely tempted to try a draytek again, maybe if I get this netgear working I'll install it at work over a weekend and take the draytek 2800 from there home to see what happens

[attachment deleted by admin]

[LesD]

Isit really just a lottery getting fast reliable routers to work?

Take a look here:
IDNetters Forums » IDNetters Forum Index » IDNet Help » 2-Wire 2700 Router issues

I followed the example of a number of others on this forum and found the 2Wire 2700HGV out performs my Netgear DG384 hands down during the noisy evening peak periods. 

[Sebby]

The reason routers vary so much is due to the chipset they use. Netgears (except the very new ones, e.g. the DG834Gv4) use the AR7 chipset, which is known for not being great with ADSL max in a lot of setups. They're not bad for everyone - I suspect the make of DSLAM plays a big part. The 3Com probably uses a Broadcom chipset, which tend to perform much better.

By the way, I agree with Les about the 2Wire 2700HGV. It does seem to outperform any other router, and it's a bargain! Still, if the 3Com works well, there's not necessarily a need to change.

[GarryF]

ok, I've bought a 2700 off of ebay, seller claims it's unlocked via dns method, time will tell

The 3com works really well at the basics, I spents endless hours arguing with it's firewall to allow vista vpn to work, can only get port forwarded to one pc at a time and I have server at home that syncs along with my laptop on dhcp, so it's lots of hassle

[Sebby]

Good stuff, Garry, the 2Wire should do you proud.