router help

[talisker]

hi all
i found this forum from a link on another forum, i am at my witts end with connection dropping out and was hopping someone here could give me a bit of advice.
i've had this problem now for about 2 years and it's never been resolved, bt don't want to know about it and my isp can't seem to solve it.
I'm on a long line approx 4km and my router keeps dropping the connection which is very annoying as some days it can be as much as 5 or 6 times an hour, i've tried pretty much everything i can think of ,trying the router at the master socket, disconnecting the ring wire ,engineer calls from bt but nothing works.
I've been recommended by a friend to try a BT 2700hgv router and was wonder if you think that it might help my problem, i've seen a few on ebay and understand that to get it working with my isp i would need to change the firmware as i'm with adsl24, is this a simple process or will i have to buy one that has already been changed.
my current router is a BT voyager 2500v which i changed the firmware on to work with adsl24, my line stats are below.
Line Mode    G.DMT         Line State    Show Time    
   Latency Type    Fast         Line Up Time    00:00:17:52    
   Line Coding    Trellis On         Line Up Count    2    
      
   Statistics    Downstream    Upstream    
   Line Rate    2272 Kbps    288 Kbps    
   Noise Margin    16.3 dB    15.0 dB    
   Line Attenuation    59.0 dB    31.5 dB    
   Output Power    18.8 dBm    12.1 dBm    
   K (number of bytes in DMT frame)    72    10    
   R (number of check bytes in RS code word)    0    0    
   S (RS code word size in DMT frame)    1    1    
   D (interleaver depth)    1    1    
   Super Frames    63070     63068     
   Super Frame Errors    34     0     
   RS Words    0     0     
   RS Correctable Errors    0     0     
   RS Uncorrectable Errors    0     0     
   HEC Errors    11     0     
   OCD Errors    0     0     
   LCD Errors    0     0     
   ES Errors    0     0 

[madasahatter]

Hi Talisker and 

Unfortunately, I can't help, and it looks like the tech type peeps aren't in at the moment - probably feeding their faces  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to give you some advice.

[kinmel]

What we can tell you is that the 2700HGV works well on long lines and is good at holding sync.

The Dual SSID 2700 works unaltered with UK ADSL, there is a simple set up routine to follow.

The greatest improvements we have achieved for people such as yourself is in making sure that your internal wiring is in not interfering with your ADSL connection.

Will you start by connecting your modem directly to the test socket behind the master telephone socket and then take another set of readings exactly as in your post.

post those results here and then we can give you further advice.

ps  do not hesitate to post any other questions, we like helping to solve problems.

[talisker]

here are the line stats taken from the master socket with the faceplate removed.

Line Mode    G.DMT         Line State    Show Time    
   Latency Type    Fast         Line Up Time    00:00:05:35    
   Line Coding    Trellis On         Line Up Count    1    
      
   Statistics    Downstream    Upstream    
   Line Rate    2272 Kbps    288 Kbps    
   Noise Margin    15.9 dB    15.0 dB    
   Line Attenuation    58.0 dB    31.0 dB    
   Output Power    18.7 dBm    12.3 dBm    
   K (number of bytes in DMT frame)    72    10    
   R (number of check bytes in RS code word)    0    0    
   S (RS code word size in DMT frame)    1    1    
   D (interleaver depth)    1    1    
   Super Frames    19705     19703     
   Super Frame Errors    148     0     
   RS Words    0     0     
   RS Correctable Errors    0     0     
   RS Uncorrectable Errors    0     0     
   HEC Errors    144     0     
   OCD Errors    0     0     
   LCD Errors    0     0     
   ES Errors    0     0 ftp://

[Sebby]

What I can tell you is that your extension wiring doesn't look to be having a significant effect, though of course it could be suffering from bursts of noise, which the above figures would not show. Also, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your stats whatsoever.

I would say that, other than having an engineer visit again, a 2Wire 2700HGV is your best bet, especially given that they can be had for as little as £15 delivered off of eBay. It's definitely worth a try - let us know how you get on.

[Rik]

Hi Talisker, welcome to the forum.

   Statistics    Downstream    Upstream    
   Line Rate    2272 Kbps    288 Kbps    
   Noise Margin    16.3 dB    15.0 dB    
   Line Attenuation    59.0 dB    31.5 dB    
   

Your attenuation, at 59db, suggests a line length of nearer 6km. What puzzles me is that you're on a fixed-rate 2Mbps service, while the BT limits for that service are an attenuation of <43db. You should be on a 1Mbps service, and that might explain the problem. Certainly a 2700 router is worth a try, it's worked something near a miracle for me.

[talisker]

i would rather not go down getting a engineer to call again i really can't face ringing bt and have them give me the same old nonsense again, last time i spoke to them they said they would send a engineer but if he did not find a fault they would charge me and as far as they were concerned as long as i can make and receive phone calls and my internet works most of the time then thats good enough for them ,I'm not expecting a super fast line all i would like is for it to stay connected ,they even tried dropping my connection speed down at one point to 1meg fixed and even that made no difference.
i think i'll try a 2Wire 2700HGV router can't be any worse than what i've got now, the was i understand it to get a one that you can unlock you have to get a single SSID although kinmel has suggested a dual will work with adsl24, i think i would rather get the single one in case i change isp's.
how do you tell if it's a single or a dual, i can always email the seller on ebay thats if they know what to look for as well 

[talisker]

Hi Talisker, welcome to the forum.

Your attenuation, at 59db, suggests a line length of nearer 6km. What puzzles me is that you're on a fixed-rate 2Mbps service, while the BT limits for that service are an attenuation of <43db. You should be on a 1Mbps service, and that might explain the problem. Certainly a 2700 router is worth a try, it's worked something near a miracle for me.

actually i've just checked and according to samknows i'm only 2.09 km from the exchange, i was put on a fixed 2meg line by adsl25 as they said this would help if i was on a long line, i tried a fixed 1 meg line with bt but it was no better.

[Rik]

You'll need to ask the seller whether it's single or dual, they often don't know - the only safe was is to look at the serial number. Any of them will work with any ISP, it's just a matter of tweaking as needed.

If, however, your line was dropping on a fixed 1Mbps connection, I'd take a bet on a line fault. What else have you got connected at your end, eg phones, Sky boxes etc?

The rule of thumb is that a line suffers ~10db attenuation per kilometre of cable. It's a bit higher for aluminium, lower for thick copper, so there's something wrong with your line which shouldn't be more than 4km from the Samknows data.

[Sebby]

What puzzles me is that, regardless of the attenuation and service, things seem to look okay. But, like you say, Rik, the attenuation does look a bit on the high side for a 4km line.

[Rik]

It does, doesn't it, Sebby. I'm wondering about a corroded joint or a leaking exchange pair. Unfortunately, we can't get IDNet to test the line.

[Sebby]

It sounds like that could be a possibility, Rik, but getting BT to look into it is likely to be difficult, especially given that they have found no fault in the past.

[talisker]

ok i've just spoken to adsl24 and they have said the line test was ok but bt are going to check the line again and the equipment at the exchange and then possibly a home visit ,but they have said if they can't find a fault or they find a fault with my equipment they will charge me £188.00 
i'm fairly sure from past experiences with bt that they are not going to find a fault i which case i'll get charged ,i wonder if it's worth talking to bt myself as i'm not prepared to pay.

[Sebby]

You have to go through your ISP, unfortunately, though you could contact Ben Verwaayen (the CEO).

[Rik]

I agree with Sebby, Talisker. BT won't normally talk to you, you're not their customer. An email to uncle Ben won't do any harm, though, but I'd suggest you ask ADSL24 why your attenuation is so high, that seems to be at the core of this issue.

[talisker]

i don't think that my high attenuation is a fault with adsl24 as it was the same when i was with BT, last time a engineer called he said that it was fine so i'm fairly sure they will say the same again.
do you know if it's possible to cancel the fault investigation with BT as i can only see this going one way, they will call check my line and kit and no problem will be found, i think i would just rather buy a 2700hgv and give it a go and see if it helps rather than risk having to pay £188

[Sebby]

It's not a fault caused by ADSL24, no. Attenuation and noise is outside the ISP, but, as ADSL24 are your ISP, all faults have to go through them.

I believe you should be asked if you want to have an engineer visit, so you'll be able to decline.

[Lance]

I'll just point out that a dual SSID 2700HGV is no more difficult to set up than the single SSID (if anything it is easier!). They are also newer than the single SSID and should you change isp it's just a case of entering the new ISP details, no need for firmware changes or anything

[talisker]

I'll just point out that a dual SSID 2700HGV is no more difficult to set up than the single SSID (if anything it is easier!). They are also newer than the single SSID and should you change isp it's just a case of entering the new ISP details, no need for firmware changes or anything

ah rite, the way that i understood it was if you bought a dual ssid and your isp was not BT then you couldn't use it, so it doesn't matter which one i get then.

[Lance]

so it doesn't matter which one i get then.

Absolutely correct! I use one myself and the easiest way to get around the uername validation is that on the page you enter your ISP username and password, rather than clicking submit/save, you just type javascript:document.pagepost.submit() in the address bar and press enter. That will bypass the validation and save your details.

[Sebby]

Yep, it's as easy as Lance says. In fact, it's easier than the single SSID models as you don't need to use DNS poisoning.

[talisker]

thanks for everyones help, i've bought a new 2700hgv of ebay i'll let you know if it cures my problems 

[Lance]

Good luck!

[Sebby]

I'll be interested to hear whether the 2Wire does us proud again.

[talisker]

got my 2700hgv router from ebay was a unused single ssid model and it's been connected now for the last 3 days and not a single dropped connection 
thanks for everyones help  i don't want to celebrate to early  but it's looking good so far, I've never gone more than a couple of hours before with a disconnect in the last two years 

[Sebby]

Great stuff.

[Lance]

Brilliant news!

[Rik]

We have found the 2700s to have almost miraculous properties. Is it an SBC firmware model?

[talisker]

the firmware is whatever they are shipped with as it was unopened version 4.25.33

[Rik]

So, not SBC. You shouldn't have the 300 hour problem then. 

[johnny5]

got my 2700hgv router from ebay was a unused single ssid model and it's been connected now for the last 3 days and not a single dropped connection 
thanks for everyones help  i don't want to celebrate to early  but it's looking good so far, I've never gone more than a couple of hours before with a disconnect in the last two years 

hopefully it will continue that way.
Have you gained any sync speed from the 2700?

[talisker]

cant tell if i've gained any sync speeds as i'm on 2 meg fixed line 

[Rik]

Has your noise margin increased, as that's the way it would show on a fixed-rate connection.

[talisker]

stats on the 2700 are


DSL Connection Details
DSL Line (Wire Pair):    Line 1 (inner pair)
Protocol:    G.DMT Annex A
Downstream Rate:    2272 kbps
Upstream Rate:    288 kbps
Channel:    Fast
Current Noise Margin:    17.0 dB (Downstream), 15.0 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation:    56.8 dB (Downstream), 31.5 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power:    17.9 dBm (Downstream), 12.2 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information:    Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {TSTC} Specific: {0x00}
PVC Info:    0/38

[Sebby]

I'm surprised you were allowed a 2Mb service with attenuation of 56.8dB (unless the router is misreporting it, though I think the 2700 is quite accurate). Strictly speaking, you should on be able to get a 1Mb fixed service from BT, but there you go!

The stats themselves look fine. With a fixed service, you don't have to worry so much as it's not rate adaptive.

[talisker]

when i've spoken to bt in the past they have said my line should be fine for 3 meg 
i think the line attenuation reported by the 2700 is right ,it's always been between 56/60 db depending on what router i've had, i did have my connection dropped to 1 meg when i was with bt but it made no difference to my connection dropping out.

[Rik]

You're attenuation is identical to mine, both up and down, also using a 2700. However, I am synching at 3520/448 with NM at 9/21.

I'm troubled by your u/s noise margin, which seems very low - I'd expect to see it in the mid-20s. I'm guessing, therefore, that your line has a noise problem. Like Sebby, I'm amazed that BT have agreed a 2Mbps connection, you should be on 1M.

[Sebby]

You may well be able to get 3Mb on max. It's strange because there are much more strict rules for the provisioning of fixed rate services in terms of attenuation. Pretty much anyone can get max because it's rate-adaptive.

[talisker]

it was bt who originally decided to put my on 2 meg fixed in the first place which did seem a little strange at the time as when i was on max i was struggling to get 1.8meg.
not sure if it's connected to the noise problem but we have always had a problem with the telephone line being quiet and bt have turned the gain up several times but it's still a bit on the quiet side.

[Rik]

I suspect there is an issue on the line. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that BT don't intend to do anything about it - and they are not obliged to provide an ADSL service, so if you push too hard, they could just flag the line as unsuitable and that will be that. Have you spoken to support, what did they say?

[talisker]

i have spoken to support many times in the past and get nowhere, they just seem to be reading from a script and every time i called you go back to square one, is the router switched on and plugged in ect.
i got very annoyed with them and wrote a long email to their complaints department and they passed it straight back to their support dept and you would never guess what there reply was........something along the lines of, if you can ring the support line and they will show you how to delete the cookies on your machine which should help the problem 
i think you are right i suspect that there is a problem with the line which is to expensive for them to fix, i live on a fairly new estate and none of my neighbors seem to have any problems.
but as long as it stays connected i'm happy, this was never about line speed always about having a line that would stay connected something that i could never get bt to understand 

[Rik]

Can I just clarify, we're not talking about IDNet support giving you the runaround are we?

[talisker]

Can I just clarify, we're not talking about IDNet support giving you the runaround are we?

no i'm talking about bt, i thought that if i had my line and isp with bt they would have been able to help me sort the problem but i was wrong.

[Rik]

Unfortunately, BT's support is in India and script driven.