Linux thoughts

[Ted]

Both Flashplayer and java should be available through the package manager, others who use Ubuntu will have more advise.

installing Nvidia drivers manually can be a pain, init3, kernel source needed, run, configure, init5 etc. Grrrrrrrr
Having said that, installing the dkms-nvidia package does the trick for me (click-click)
Any desktop can look drab just look at "bliss" if you want to pep it up a bit  check out compiz-fusion Here

[D-Dan]

OK - I said it before referring to ATI graphics drivers - but it's equally valid for Nvidia cards.

Forget the difficult install process - go to package manager and install Envyng

Use that to install your graphics drivers. Honestly - it takes car of dependancies, install, and config. IMO - it's a godsend, and works for ATI and NV cards.

Steve

[LesD]

Thanks Ted and D-Dan I will try and give your suggestions ago this evening.
Trouble is I don't yet have a clue what, "Envyng" is or exactly what it does but if I can find it I will try it. 

I reckon with a bit of Googling you could probably come up with the "Idiot's guide to Linux" that Rik has challenged you with. There must be one out there on there already somewhere on the World Wide Web! 

Well how about this as as starting point for users new to Linux:

http://www.linux.org/lessons/   

I found it while looking for a clue to  "Envyng".

Here is lesson 13 and it explains how to get the floppy drive working and a floppy disk formatted:

http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/l13/lesson13c.html

Not point and click but not too difficult I guess.

These lessons just might save Danni & Jane a job! 

[D-Dan]

Here's a clue to what Envyng is:

http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html

[LesD]

Here's a clue to what Envyng is:

http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html

Thanks for the link that's great.

I spotted it when I came in to Post that I believe I have succeeded by following my nose so to speak!

In the System menu I opened the Synaptic Package Manager under Administration and searched the list of packages for Envyng and core and a couple of others appeared so throwing caution to the wind I selected the lot and went for it. There were a whole host of other things that I was then told were necessary but hey in for a penny so I just said Go.

I watched quite a large download ensue at between 420 and 430 kBps which took between 2 & 3 minutes to complete but once done I found under System Preferences - Screen Resolution that I had not spotted before and a Screen Saver. I upped the Refresh Rate frequency to 53 Hz and Eureka the Black "in Memorandum" band all round my picture was gone and the Desktop filled the available area! 

A bit of success always makes things feel better.  So now I need to tackle Java and the floppy. I reckon I can do both from the command line but it is the point and click I have to master if this is to be better than my previous UNIX experience! I am getting there though with your assistance. 

Now an aside. I am getting nowhere with my CMOS battery problem despite pinning my hope on leaky diodes I now suspect leaky (electrically speaking) electrolytic  capacitors but there are too many of them to go at so I have bought another Mobo on eBay that my 1 GB of RAM and the old Thunderbird processor are compatible with, well I hope so from the research I did. Its an Abit KT7A so it should be OK. What I am concerned about is how my Ubuntu installation on my HDD is going to react when I do a Mobo transplant in a few days time. I know with the certainty that a bad experience brings that XP Pro would throw a right wobbly that would most likely entail a reinstall, reactivation and the WGA third degree all over again... and again... and again...  Do you think I could be developing a Linux psyche? 

[Ted]

Do you think I could be developing a Linux psyche? 

No.........Its just coming back. 

Use the command line if you want to. i use both GUi and command line for different things. Therein lays the beauty. Choice!
Just because it can be point and click, doesn't mean its easier or better.

With regard to the motherboard swap, just try it. Someone i know did the same thing and had no problem. Well to be fair there was a bit of, "what's going on here" and looking at the hardware, but it booted up fine. IIRC it was Fedora Core (Redhat)

[somanyholes]

quite an intreresting read on hardy heron, and a new linux user

http://contentconsumer.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/is-ubuntu-useable-enough-for-my-girlfriend/

[LesD]

No.........Its just coming back. 

You just might be right! 

I have had the floppy drive mounted, read a disk, unmounted the drive and formatted a disk all without resorting to the Command Line! 

With regard to the motherboard swap, just try it.

The eBay Abit Mobo arrived today so that is exactly what I did this evening and would you know I don't think my Ubuntu Linux even noticed.   

Last evening when I got fed up with the floppy I put a CD in with some MPEG music videos on it and within a few minutes I had them playing, in a window or full screen just like they do in Windows. I had to agree to some "Restricted" codecs being installed but after that away it went.

A downside to my new eBay Mobo is this Abit one does not have on-board sound so I have plugged in an old Genius PCI card that must be about 7 to 9 years old. The sound worked straight away but a couple of times it became distorted when I ran another application. I don't think this was happening with the Jetway Mobo's sound system. So maybe I need better drivers or perhaps another visit to eBay! 

(Would you believe my wife thinks I have enough "junk" and should start selling some instead of buying more! I cannot think what she means.  )

[Ted]

Sounds like you're having fun

The restricted codecs wil be the "win-32codecs" its just a licensing thing.
If you want to play DVD films you'll need the "libdvdcss2" file, should be available from the repos.

Check the default PCM level in the sound mixer, if its set too high it does sound very distorted.

With regard to getting rid of all your junkValued possessions, would it not be easier just to sell the wife?     

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi Les,

I'm back in pocket

I'd recommend you go into the "repositories" menu in the package manager and tick just about everything apart from the "proposed" and "backports" repositories and reload packages. You should find more fun stuff then

If you aren't quite so keen on the look of the desktop (I assume you are using Gnome [the brown one]) I would try installing the "kubuntu-desktop" package. It's a big download (at least a couple of hundred meg) but it will give you the KDE desktop which may be more to your liking. When you install it select "kdm" as the login manager when prompted and select Session > KDE from the little menu button bottom-right of the login box. You can then choose between Gnome and KDE as you prefer.

I would then install the "kubuntu-restricted-extras" package. That should provide most of the fun "non-redistributable" things like Java, DVD decoding, MP3, Flash and so on.

If you want to be able to install proprietary things like Skype and Google Earth from the package manager then follow the instructions here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Medibuntu

Good luck,
Paul.

[LesD]

Hi Paul,

I tried to run the BT Speed Tester so as not to deviate completely from the theme of the thread you started in IDNet Help before we were "exiled" (just for Ted) over here.

The problem was no Java. So I went to the Java website and downloaded a big bin file that is sitting on my desktop and short of giving in and resorting to the command line I cannot find out how to get it installed and Java working. I have not found this as intuitive as I would have liked! 

The file I have is this one:
jre-6u5-linux-i586.bin


What do ypu reckon I should do?

[D-Dan]

I think you're gonna have to resort to the commandline - though a quick Google shows it's about three commands and that's it.

However, I find it odd you have to. I re-installed Ubuntu 8.04 last week (after I killed 7.10 through no fault but my own) - and Java was there ready to use.

If you are using firefox on Ubuntu, visit a java enabled page and see if FF offers to install it for you - no messing with the commandline then.

Steve

[LesD]

Check the default PCM level in the sound mixer, if its set too high it does sound very distorted.

I have tried lowering the PCM level this evening and I thinks it has made a difference.
PCM is new to me so a bit more to bottomout!

With regard to getting rid of all your junkValued possessions, would it not be easier just to sell the wife?     

Now there's a thought!  but who would cook my tea while I am transplanting MoBo's, CMOS diodes and posting on the forum? No she'll have to stay. 

I think you're gonna have to resort to the commandline - though a quick Google shows it's about three commands and that's it.

Defeatist! 

If you are using firefox on Ubuntu, visit a java enabled page and see if FF offers to install it for you - no messing with the commandline then.

The problem first cropped up at the BT Speed Tester site and there was no offer to install it there so I tried Broadband Max to see if they were any more helpful but I had no luck there either. So as your advice gelled with what I had initially tried I have just been to thinkbroadband's speed tester and sure enough I was offered two versions Java 5 & 6 and a couple of others that meant nothing to me so I had Java 6. Now I have it intalled and working here is a thinkbroadband speed test result to prove it:

30/04/08 19:33      3160.09 Kbps     374.40 Kbps     91.xxx.yy.zz      2Wire 2700 HGV

Flushed with success I went for a BT one and got this
The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 3500 k

Please do not move away from this page and do not start any other download activity on your computer.

and then 96% of the progress towards the final result it stalled with a message:
Exception::access denied (java.net.SocketPermission 217.32.105.42:50301 connect.

Still this could well be a BT issue and for me it spells definite progress. Look "No Hands" on the keyboard at the Command Prompt in the Terminal Window.   

Well this is not strictly true I did have a more pressing concern that has had me there this evening and that was to check that my 1.4 GHz processor was in fact running 1.4Ghz on this "new" eBay  Abit KT7A Mobo.

The BIOS set up for the 100 FSB (Dual data rate) AMD Athlon that I have is the result of a BIOS revision relatively early on in the life cycle of this now gentlemanly MoBo kind of like its new owner. 
A 100/33 MHz FSB  multiplier of 12above = 1400 kHz although the BIOS state it as 1300.  Confused so was I!

This evening I used this: 

$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo    (I know, I know its a command line entry but this little issue was bugging me) 
cpu family   : 6
cpu MHz      : 1400.157
cpuid level   : 1

Isn't it nice and it tells me just what I wanted to know i.e. 12above x 100 = 1400.157 kHz

Now I bet there is a point and click method to find this out but at my rate of progress up the learning curve, knowing me, I would have had the BIOS re-flashed just to see if it made any difference before I found it! 

I do have a DOS6.2 bootable floppy ready prepared just in case the need arises! 

By the way the BIOS string in the POST is: 11/07/2001-8363-686B-6A6LMA19C-64. If there are any Guru's out there with an older Anorak than mine maybe they can confirm that this is in fact the latest available BIOS barring betas that is. I think the -64 on the end say it is but I am new to Abit MoBo's just like I am to Linux.

Now come on get you teeth into some proper replies no one liners after all my effort! 



 

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi,

It seems that the BT speedtester failure is not Linux related. It happens with Firefox and the latest Sun JRE and happens exactly the same with the same software combination on Windows.

I did manage to solve the problem. If you install the Sun JRE and then use Opera as your browser it works so it seems to be a Firefox problem.

Cheers,
Paul.

[LesD]

so it seems to be a Firefox problem.

I am using Firefox on the Linux box so I think you must be right.

I have always harboured doubts about FF. Just a feeling in the water I guess!

I have just had my "latest" BIOS bin file in Notepad and discovered I am two revisions behind .... now does it matter? The processor is fine and the last fix was to so with a nVidia GEforce card in XP? 
Since it's I shall sleep on it! 

[Dangerjunkie]

I like Firefox and when I'm on Windows I'm far more comfortable with it from a security prospective than I am with IE 6 or IE 7. Ubuntu Hardy comes with Firefox 3 Beta 5. They looked long and hard at the best option for the new distro. FF3B5 is nearly there quality wise and represents (IMHO) a better user experience than FF2. When FF3 goes gold it will obviously be updated by the package manager. If you don't like it then you could give Opera a try.

As for BIOS updates... I once had a very bad experience when one of those nice "winflash" programs bricked my laptop by crashing after erasing the BIOS chip but before writing the new code in. Since then I've been more of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought. If there is a new BIOS update I check the list of changes and only apply it if the fixes improve an issue that I have.

Cheers,
Paul.

[LesD]

Ubuntu Hardy comes with Firefox 3 Beta 5.

Yes I did stand back in amazement when I realised that Ubuntu could release their heralded latest editon with declared Beta software in it! 

Beta = bugs and most worryingly bugs that are as yet unknown and the users are now the beta testers. 

As for BIOS updates... I once had a very bad experience when one of those nice "winflash" programs bricked my laptop

I did say earlier that I have flashed a number of BIOS's myself, mainly from a clean bootable floppy disk and the one and only failure I have ever had was from within Windows.  Fortunately I am acquainted with Arthur in the Netherlands, who re-flashed my BIOS chip for me but that's another story and I have told it elsewhere, including on this forum. 

Well you should not let one bad experience put you off.   
I didn't and this evening in less time than it is taking to type this reply the BIOS on this machine went up two revision from 64 to A9.

Straight in off my bootable DOS 6.2 floppy no messing. 

As soon as I could get back into the BIOS I loaded the Optimised Defaults, checked the CPU multiplier and the FSB were OK and suffice to say they were exactly as before i.e. not that clear. 
Next I put the Date and Time right saved and exited and here I am back in Ubnuntu Linux running the dubious FF. 
Whoops wash my mouth out with soap and water I'm sorry but I just can't resist a dig. 

Anyway whether I really want to or not I am slowly finding my way round and I have just run:

$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo     

again with this result:

cpu family   : 6
cpu MHz      : 1400.132
cpuid level   : 1

So my Thunderbird is still thundering along quite nicely at 1.4 GHz. 

These old processor do tend to run a wee bit warm, which is OK at the moment because the case is still wide open but when I close it up I have designs on a Linux temperature monitor like Speedfan that I know and trust in Windows. Any ideas on this one? 

[Steve]

I have heard said that running with the case open can lead to higher temperatures as the fans are unable to channel the air flow into and out of the case correctly 

[Dangerjunkie]

Yes I did stand back in amazement when I realised that Ubuntu could release their heralded latest editon with declared Beta software in it!  :eyebrow

Beta = bugs and most worryingly bugs that are as yet unknown and the users are now the beta testers. 

I know what you mean and Ubuntu did think long and hard about the choice of browser. Mozilla have said that 3B5 is the last beta before it goes gold (any time now) so IMHO it is nearly there and there won't be a huge difference in quality between 3B5 and 3.0. If this was an early beta I too would have thought they were mad. From my POV most software probably contains unknown bugs. In OSS software these tend to get fixed fairly quicklywhen discovered as we don't have to wait for the developers and can act ourselves if we consider something serious and are able. Also remember that Linux tends to be "secure by design" so even if a bug was found and exploited the damage it could do is very limited as you aren't running FF as an administrator.

I did say earlier that I have flashed a number of BIOS's myself, mainly from a clean bootable floppy disk and the one and only failure I have ever had was from within Windows.  Fortunately I am acquainted with Arthur in the Netherlands, who re-flashed my BIOS chip for me but that's another story and I have told it elsewhere, including on this forum. 

Well you should not let one bad experience put you off.   
I didn't and this evening in less time than it is taking to type this reply the BIOS on this machine went up two revision from 64 to A9.

Straight in off my bootable DOS 6.2 floppy no messing. 

I was pleasantly surprised to find that Dell have a Linux BIOS flasher available for download. You tell the machine to go down to single user mode so only essential stuff is running then fire off the file from the command line and it does the business.

Anyway whether I really want to or not I am slowly finding my way round and I have just run:

$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo

Sounds promising. Have you looked in /proc/acpi ? There's loads of interesting information in there You should be able to check the temp with

cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature

If you look in the system menu you should find a program called "system monitor" which will give you running details about how bust the CPUs are, memory and network usage.

These old processor do tend to run a wee bit warm, which is OK at the moment because the case is still wide open but when I close it up I have designs on a Linux temperature monitor like Speedfan that I know and trust in Windows. Any ideas on this one? 

Depending on which desktop you use you could try computertemp, ksensors, ktemperature or xtemp.



Good luck.

[LesD]

I have heard said that running with the case open can lead to higher temperatures as the fans are unable to channel the air flow into and out of the case correctly 

Yes me too Steve but I know this case it's old, a bit cramped and certainly when I had a cooler running Intel P4 in it the temperatures went up with the case on. I was monitoring at the time using the PC Health option in the Award BIOS.

It would be nice if it did happen but I think in reality it may involve drilling a load more holes in it or (don't mention this to my wife  ) looking on eBay for a bigger better case!

From my POV most software probably contains unknown bugs.

Note I chose to say, "with declared Beta software in it".

You should be able to check the temp with

cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature

I tried and this is what I get:

les@Linux-desktop:~$ cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
cat: /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature: No such file or directory
les@Linux-desktop:~$ less /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature: No such file or directory
les@Linux-desktop:~$

If you look in the system menu you should find a program called "system monitor" which will give you running details about how bust the CPUs are, memory and network usage.


Depending on which desktop you use you could try computertemp, ksensors, ktemperature or xtemp.

Thanks for these pointers I will go looking shortly. 

[D-Dan]

It's nice to see that you seem to be warming to the modern day Linux experience.

I still use XP as my main OS, since I'm not convinced Linux has matured quite enough, yet; it's getting close though.

My main problems have usually been hardware related and having to jump through random hoops to get some working. Main problems of late have been with my graphics card (ATI), sound card (X-Fi) and webcam (Mircoshaft - ermm - Microsoft). Up to and including Ubuntu 7.10 the ATI could be made to behave (and I've given my hints on this already), and the soundcard could be fooled into working (though I'm blowed if I can remember how I did it), but the cam was a non starter. I'm rather pleased that with 8.04, the sound worked straight away (and is recognised as an X-Fi card rather than an Audigy), and the cam, whilst not having enough control over brightness and contrast yet (which means low light use - eg - indoors - is pretty much lousy) it does now work.

When they release 8.10 in October, assuming similar improvements, then they may be reaching the point where Linux becomes my main OS, with Windows for my windows only stuff (though if I can get Cinema 4D working under wine, even better).

My main gripe now is that compiz is installed by default, despite the fact that if I want accelerated 3D graphics, I have to uninstall it first, but as long as I remember - I suppose it could be worse. At least with Linux I don't have to trawl through endless CDs or internet sites looking for elusive drivers anymore

Steve

[LesD]

It's nice to see that you seem to be warming to the modern day Linux experience.

I cannot deny that the having a more Windows like Desktop is an improvement over the old CDE and VUE ones I had but I can't help wondering how these may have moved on in the commercial versions of UNIX.
I last used HPUX 10.20 and I believe 11 and possibly even 12 were around at that time.

I still use XP as my main OS, since I'm not convinced Linux has matured quite enough, yet; it's getting close though.

I shall have to concur with you there about your current main OS. I would have to become a lot more comfortable meaning familiar with Linux to give up XP. I have no leaning towards Vista at this time but I am in my comfort zone with XP having come to it from the W3.11, W'95, W'98 and Win2K route at home and via NT4 and Win2K at work. I can see that Linux has the means of doing what Windows does but in some ways its one of those "false friends" in that it can lull you into thinking you know your way round when the truth dawns on you that you are lost. Well maybe that's down to my incompetence but I am certainly not giving up on it just yet. I shall just have keep on booting up my XP machine for a rest in the comfort zone when I feel the need! 

My main problems have usually been hardware related and having to jump through random hoops to get some working.

Sounds like I have these sort of hoops ahead of me! I followed your advice about EnvyNG as best as a Rookie could but I am still not fully convinced I am getting the best out of my Graphic card. I have a resolution of 1024x768 at 53 Hz that fills the screen so its OK for now.

I'm rather pleased that with 8.04, the sound worked straight away (and is recognised as an X-Fi card rather than an Audigy)

That's great but not having used 7.10 I have not experienced your previous problems and at the other end of the scale I was pleased to get sound first from the on-board sound system on the Jetway Mobo I was initially using and now from an old Genius PCI sound card in the Abit one that was great in W'98 but that XP struggled with. This was mainly because the Genius driver support was lacking in my opinion.

When they release 8.10 in October, assuming similar improvements, then they may be reaching the point where Linux becomes my main OS, with Windows for my windows only stuff (though if I can get Cinema 4D working under wine, even better).

October will be with us before we know it but let's not wish our lives away, what say you? 

My main gripe now is that compiz is installed by default, despite the fact that if I want accelerated 3D graphics, I have to uninstall it first, but as long as I remember - I suppose it could be worse. At least with Linux I don't have to trawl through endless CDs or internet sites looking for elusive drivers anymore

Ah if only I had just a few of your skills. I don't even know what "compiz" is! 

 

[chrisga]

Interesting thread.

I'll weigh in on the side of the Linux fans.
I'm currently running  Ubuntu  Hardy Heron on an Althon 64 bit machine, with   Nvidia graphics card.

I've always liked  the idea of Linux,  and periodically had a  go at using it over the years.   Until about 2 years ago, moving over completely  to it for home use always defeated me for various  reasons.

As has been mentioned in the thread, I always found Linux forums "clanny" and  "sneery" towards "N00bs" (don't you just hate that insulting term for a start 

This all changed when Ubuntu   came along, it really seemed to open up the "Linux Experience".  I'm not a "hardcore" computer type, although I've been computing at home at work since DOS days.

My aim is always to end up with a system to use practically, as opposed to setting up  "difficult" system as a technical challenge.  The core reasons that I like Linux  are :-

1.  It's frugal with hardware requirements
2.  It's  inherently a more secure OS than Windows.
3.  It requires no  system slowing anti virus  facilities.
4.  It's  completely configurable to your own requirements - You can, if you wish,  create a true "personal
      computer"
5.  It's free 


Anyway,  I've been running Ubuntu since   Dapper Drake (2006)  - I've even loaded  the latest version  Hardy Heron for my father to use - and it just works and stays working for him.  The number of "support calls" I've had  from him has dropped  to zero since I weaned him off Windows.  I've also loaded Mint Linux ( an Ubuntu derivative) for my mother to use - In some respects  it was easier for her.  At 71, she is a  computer novice, so she has no "baggage" !

The point in all this is that  from a user point of view, the modern Linux PC is  as easy to use as a Windows PC .

With respect to  hardware, my own PC, I built it  specifically to run Linux.  Both my parents have PC's that are barely viable for XP, but, with the addition of a little RAM,  run  extremely well  on Linux.

I use my Linux PC  exclusively  at home  for  domestic and leisure use.  However, I do have Windows 2000 loaded on a spare hard drive   (bootable  by selection in the BIOS) as a backup and for use with some electronics design  programs associated with my employment and part time work.  - Unfortunately the programs won't run on WINE and alternative Linux programs  are too much effort to make compatible with the rest of teh industry - Like I said above, I'm not into the "arts for arts sake" approach !

I am aiming to make sure that I never have to own a MS OS that is more contemporary than 2000.

Unless you are into gaming or specialist   S/W, I can't see why  modern Linux won't work for everyone as a domestic machine - In these days of environmental  considerations, it may even  help  keep computers  that aren't viable for the later MS OS's out of the  dump.

Go on, give it a go - get an old PC from your local Free Cycle:-

http://www.freecycle.org/
......and download  a  free copy of Xbuntu :-
http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/xubuntu

A version of Ubuntu  specifically for lower powered machines.

Nothing to pay, nothing to loose 

[Rik]

Only a few more grey cells.

[Sebby]

During my 6 month move to Linux, I found I'd lost the ability to do anything without problems.