The free laptop is a great incentive - if you can get it

[Noreen]

It's one of the most appealing broadband deals on offer: a free laptop if you agree to take out Carphone Warehouse/AOL's £20-a-month contract for two years. But six months after she signed up (and paid extra for a better laptop) one customer is at the end of her tether, with no computer, mysteriously cancelled contracts, non-existent refunds and endlessly frustrating attempts to contact the company...........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/may/17/internetphonesbroadband.consumeraffairs?gusrc=rss&feed=technologyfull

[Rik]

The joys of dealing with the CPW.

[Lance]

I wouldn't call the CPW appealing! 

[Rik]

Only in the litigious sense. 

[Sebby]

To be honest, a broadband provider offering a free laptop is alarm bells to me. If they have to give away a laptop...

[Rik]

Orange have done it too. I guess if you know no better than to tie yourself into an 18-24 month contract with a bad ISP in return for a low spec lappy...

[Sebby]

Indeed. Even though you can get a fairly decently laptop for as little as £300 these days, I can see how the offer of a free laptop would entice a lot of people into signing a long contract. What they don't realise is that they're paying for it anyway (and not just in money!).

[David]

If something seems to good to be true................it usually is 

[Rik]

Unfortunately, David, neither the laptop nor the contract is good - but the people signing up don't seem to realise that's the case.

[Sebby]

Absolutely, David. There's no such thing as a free lunch laptop.

[Lance]

The only time I could understand someone signing up is if they currently didn't have a computer or the internet. It's these poor souls who don't know any better I feel sorry for.

[Rik]

That is an issue, isn't it. It's only once you get on the net that you can really find out about ISPs, at which point it's going to feel like a very long contract.

[Lance]

But will it though. As these people don't know how it should be, they might just take it as standard. 

They will be happy browsing their shopping sites and receiving emails, rather than running speed tests and reading the ISP's forum

[Rik]

In which case, I guess, they are happy and no harm is done.

[Lance]

The harm, as I see it, is the ISPs taking advantage of these poor people by providing a sub-standard service, and getting away with it 

[Rik]

You forgot the sub-standard lappy. It's snake oil all over again.

[David]

Have they just upped the anti though,it wasn't that  long ago people were signing for the fact that a "Free Modem" was part of the deal and at that time it seemed very attractive..
I think I may have been suckered into such a deal at that time,its not until you experience it and look around that things start to get clearer but given that the majority of people see and ad buy the product and don't really know what a real service is they,on the whole are happy.
I know someone with cpw and they are very happy with the service but I asked if the service was good and did the service slow down at certain times/also why didn't they answer Emails...........I rarely go on it,its there but I only switch on when I feel like it and all they really know is that its there and have no interest in speeds or anything else so they are happy...................This person would not even know if the service was down or even how to check their speeds   so there is a market and I think its huge

[madasahatter]

so there is a market and I think its huge

Tbh David, I think that type of market is probably as big as 50% of the ISP market - possibly even bigger. I know plenty of peeps who turn their PC on, do a bit of surfing, send a couple of e-mails then turn their PC off, and that's it - the regular pattern for them. You look in any ISP forum, and it's usually more or less the same faces that you see complaining again and again - simply because they are among the small percentage that actually know what they are doing and therefore what they should be able to expect out of the ISP. Peeps sign up with these ISPs for a number of reasons - I would suspect mostly because they don't know what they're doing and they like the price. Those are the ones who will be happy with the substandard service.

[David]

Wonder if they will ever wake up,this is the same people who think I need my head testing for spending too much time on the pc,but the upside is my typing speed is not bad at all,in fact Wendy thinks its amazing,I don't think about it and just type,also I find the more you learn the more you want to know,and although I do struggle a bit.I am amazed at the lack of the basics I am still unaware of.

I prefer to try and get to grips with the fundamentals at least.I,with the help of this forum in particular have saved hundreds of pounds and gained a hell of a lot of knowledge.I don't panic anymore just try and figure it out.I am no longer scared of having a delve into my pc where others wouldn't dream of going further than what they know........they are what I once was...an engineers meal ticket..

[madasahatter]

Wonder if they will ever wake up,

Doubt it - they are happy doing what they're doing, and that's great. The only trouble for me is that they put the rest of us at risk by clicking on anything going, having no security so they get infected and infect others etc.

[David]

This is so true the one machine I lost was because I was very new,very wet behind the ears and received one of these round robin things,where people with good intentions send a message to all in their contact lists.needless to say I don't accept any of them anymore and just delete them.But the danger is there all the time.......not for me thanks keep your Prayers,and jokes and all that stuff,send it to someone else......

[Tacitus]

Peeps sign up with these ISPs for a number of reasons - I would suspect mostly because they don't know what they're doing and they like the price. Those are the ones who will be happy with the substandard service.

My neighbour who was signed up to AOL, recently dumped them and went to TT mainly because of the 'everything including international calls for £22/month'.  Price is the sole consideration. 

I have to say it's one of the few times I've felt truly sorry for the people on a tech support line.  Not that she isn't a nice person, but neither she nor her husband have a clue, even though she thinks she has.  In all honesty if I had to deal with people like her on a support line all day, I think I'd slit my wrists...

That said I rang TT a couple of times on her behalf, found one operative in SA  the other in Glasgow, and both were helpful and knowledgeable.  Couldn't really fault them.  It makes you wonder just how many of the complaints about poor service are really clueless folks not having any idea how to troubleshoot and giving wrong directions to the support line.  Further confusion follows and then the customer starts to slag off the support people when it's not always their fault.  Many of the problems I suspect are not broadband, but Windows related. 

The thing is that it's those sort of people who will go for the bargain basement stuff which means (or should) greater support costs.  I can see a point where cheap + greater support cost just doesn't add up to profit. 

Places like iDNet, Zen etc attract a more discerning clientele, more willing to learn.   

[Rik]

Agreed, Tac, plus most of us have learnt a bit before arriving here.

[Tacitus]

Agreed, Tac, plus most of us have learnt a bit before arriving here.

TBH Rik, when you're on a rubbish line you learn pretty quickly 

[madasahatter]

It makes you wonder just how many of the complaints about poor service are really clueless folks not having any idea how to troubleshoot and giving wrong directions to the support line.   

Having worked on an ISP support line, I would guess far too many to be honest. The main problem is the peeps who won't or can't give you any information like the error messages that come up, what OS they are using, what mail client they are using, what ftp client they are using, what exactly they are doing when the problem occurs, have they updated their computer recently, is their firewall turned on, is it set to allow the traffic that they are complaining about being blocked etc etc etc.

All too often when I asked what the error message was all I got was things like "a load of gobbledook", or "I just clicked it off and phoned you"

Where I work now, I provide support (among other things) for a web hosting company and you'd think these peeps would be a lot more savvy with running businesses from their sites etc. Unfortunately quite often not.

You also have the problem that some peeps think that whatever their issue you should be able to just push a button and rectify the situation, or that you've deliberately caused the issue in the first place.

Trust me, being in support isn't an easy job at the best of times............

[Rik]

TBH Rik, when you're on a rubbish line you learn pretty quickly 

You might think so, but I've lost count of the number of people I've advised against Tiscali, TT etc because of their line length only to be ignored until things go wrong. I was asked again today, and despite what I said, the enquirer said they thought they would go with Tiscali for price. I have wished them luck but said that I will not, under any circumstances, help them if they hit trouble. This time, I mean to try to stick to that.

[Rik]

Trust me, being in support isn't an easy job at the best of times............

That I know.

Could you not tele-commute, Mad?

[madasahatter]

Could you not tele-commute, Mad?

Now that would be useful - I wish   

The thing is that we have to be in the office because it is part of our data centre, so we have to be physically there because of back ups, swapping tapes, if servers need a cold reboot etc unfortunately.

[Rik]

That's a shame, Mad. I suspect 90% of what you do you could do remotely.

[madasahatter]

Sorry Rik - obviously edited my post after you'd posted to explain why I can't 

[Rik]

Couldn't they work with a small on-site core staff, and the rest remote?

[madasahatter]

The problem is that we're only a small team anyway, and obviously the DC demands 24/7/365 coverage

[MoHux]

Tbh David, I think that type of market is probably as big as 50% of the ISP market - possibly even bigger. I know plenty of peeps who turn their PC on, do a bit of surfing, send a couple of e-mails then turn their PC off, and that's it - the regular pattern for them. You look in any ISP forum, and it's usually more or less the same faces that you see complaining again and again - simply because they are among the small percentage that actually know what they are doing and therefore what they should be able to expect out of the ISP. Peeps sign up with these ISPs for a number of reasons - I would suspect mostly because they don't know what they're doing and they like the price. Those are the ones who will be happy with the substandard service.

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least.

I am inclined to think the problem is more that, in this country, people naively expect to get what the adverts tell them they will get.  They then can't be bothered to do anything about it when they don't.
Also I am afraid the majority of these ISPs rely on the anonymity that the medium provides, and the certainty that they won't be censured, to behave in a manner no other type of business would survive with.

This forum is proof that attitude does  make a difference, when those with knowledge want to help those who are still learning.  I am sure there are a lot of people reading this who would agree.

Rik, on more than one occasion, has said these people need a certificate of competence before being allowed online.  I think he is nearly right.  I think there should be lots of forums/places like this, where you don't get ridiculed for not knowing!!  Then their learning-curve would not be so long.

Mo



Wake up at the back there!!     

[David]

  Well said,As an ace idiot is most things to do with the pc.You are correct.When I started I saw the ads on TV at the time it was AOL.In defense of the human race I did think it was as easy as they made it out to be,and they still do,surf the internet,send Emails all that guff,Nothing in the ads will prepare you for the abject fear of once shelling out money,and struggling like hell to rig up a "Modem" got that sounds all technical..After reading the first page or the quick guide you are on !!!!then what all the buttons,very scary,somehow you have managed to get on to the web,took me about 2 hours,then I was terrified if I turned it off would it be ok tomorrow......in short it wasn't that much fun at all,all this was before the discovery of the My Computer button,and Microsoft office it was doomed from the start really in fact I think I ended up playing solitaire on the damn thing.
After a while I took a look at the forums boy they all had a language of their own.Ok so you ask a question ? WRONG !!!!!!boy do you get a hiding because you have either not spoken in this foreign language or asked a really basic question.....make note to yourself never get ridiculed like this again,so now you are on your own,so its every How To mag off the newsagent,sign up for all the monthly pc mags which send you dozens of discs and books,and fat binders which will one day be filled and end up in the loft or at a boot sale.....still not much the wiser.....so you roam aimlessly around giving the boards a wide birth,until the lord looks down and points you in the direction of IDnetters you read the boards for a month before daring to ask a question and with luck you are on your way to really getting to know things about your PC and for that matter about life.
Not all computer clever are so far up their rear ends they have no time for people who don't know as much and IDnetters must rate as one of the best forums on the web...it is unique in its concept and the understanding of all its users.
The main advantage is after you have spent time here,if you ever leave I assure you,you will leave much richer than the first day you posted..a lot wiser,and with luck humbled from being part of this family of like minded friends who share not just knowledge but  a lot more.........You wont find this quality in some clever TV ad........................some come here the short route,I came the long way and every step was worth it........................Thank you

[MoHux]

 

Mo

[madasahatter]

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least.

The thing is Mo, I am talking from real world experience of working on a support desk.

Yes, most families will have someone who works with a computer, but working with a computer and knowing what you are doing with one are oceans apart. Unfortunately, most peeps who work with computers know how to switch them on, log in, and do what they need to do with the apps that they have available to them. The trouble is, when those apps don't do what they think they ought to do then they are in big trouble, and haven't got a clue where to go from there except to their appropriate helpdesk.

Unfortunately, there are a lot (and yes I do mean a lot) of peeps out there who use computers at work who are not computer savvy at all - I know - I speak to them every single working day!!

[MoHux]

......... The trouble is, when those apps don't do what they think they ought to do then they are in big trouble, and haven't got a clue where to go from there except to their appropriate helpdesk.

But that is what they are told to do Mad.   By the people who made money selling it to them!

You mustn't complain when they do. 


Mo

[madasahatter]

But that is what they are told to do Mad.   By the people who made money selling it to them!

You mustn't complain when they do. 


Mo

Quite right Mo - and I'm not complaining about that - it's keeping me in a job after all. What I was trying to say (though probably in my hoob cack pawed way) was that just because peeps work with PCs doesn't mean they know even the basics of how they work, no matter what they think. As in you ask these peeps some very very basic troubleshooting questions ( as in things like do they still have an internet connection)  and they haven't got a clue what you are talking about!

[David]

To anyone outside this world Mad.Help Desk.......Help being the operative word someone new just knows they have a computer which inst doing what it should do.They know little or nothing about operating systems or applications,and for the people on the help desk  it must be so difficult,to them the task bar the and all the other things like look into properties,change settings,reboot,firewall,Ethernet cable,its all double dutch and until they invent a self healing pc it will carry on.
But there is another angle on this.a lot of isps help lines cost an absolute fortune to call so another cash cow to milk......

In reality if you told all the people what could lay ahead a lot of them would say "I wont bother" its big business surely ?

[madasahatter]

To anyone outside this world Mad.Help Desk.......Help being the operative world someone new just knows they have a computer which inst doing what it should do.

I'd agree with you 100% David if I was just talking about new staff (though even then I would expect that all school leavers have at least some experience with computers) - unfortunately often not the case. For instance, would you know where the "start" button is? That is the type of question I am talking about, where even experienced computer users at work are flummoxed. 

[David]

Blimey thats basic 

[madasahatter]

Blimey thats basic 

Entirely my point David - just because someone uses a computer at work day in day out doesn't mean they know anything at all about them - it just means that they know what they usually click to get the desired result, and if it doesn't happen they are totally lost.

If anyone is wondering, yes - I'm being serious here - more than once, in response to "click the start button", I've had "where's that?" or "what's that?", or even once I had "I knew you'd get technical on me" 

[Sebby]

It's a good point, and I suppose it's like anything really - you can learn to do something without understanding anything surrounding it. What I would say is that it can be very difficult for the generations that weren't brought up with computers.

[madasahatter]

What I would say is that it can be very difficult for the generations that weren't brought up with computers.

Totally agree - and, strange as it may seem, that would include most peeps 30 or over, and a fair proportion of those over 25 I would have thought.

[MoHux]

I am sorry Mad, of course I knew what you were saying, and why.

But I have no sympathy.  Billions of pounds have been, and are being, made from those people of whom you speak.
With absolute disregard of the technicalities of using the equipment, and whether or not they would be able to use it.
Nobody cares when they sell it to them, they know they can make another pile of money with the so-called support services.  Hundreds of pounds to show them where the Start buttton is that you talk about.

Every day on these forum I read of people complaining of being ripped off, whether by an ISP, or a retailler.  Mostly these stories are from people who are computer aware.  There are millions we never hear from, all paying their money and believing when told how simple it is to use.
Of course you get dumb questions, just consider yourself fortunate it's not you on the other end of the line who has just spent a small fortune on equipment, and is trying to get someone to tell them where to 'Start'.

 
Mo

[Tacitus]

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least. 

Lot of truth in what you say.  However the key word is "computer" literate.  They may be ace at sorting out Windows problems, but Broadband is more of a telecoms problem.  It can or should, often involve rewiring the house phone system properly, not like my neighbour's which is a series of DIY plug in extensions, daisy chained via multi-point adaptors seemingly ad-infinitum.  I doubt they are unique.  How many would know there is a significant difference between UTP cable and the stuff they sell cheap at the local DIY?

I agree with Rik.  The others in the close think I've more money than sense because I advise them to steer clear of Tiscali, AOL, TT et al.  All they can see is the price.

[MoHux]

...... I agree with Rik.  The others in the close think I've more money than sense because I advise them to steer clear of Tiscali, AOL, TT et al.  All they can see is the price.

But have you considered that Broadband/Internet may not be their first consideration, when allocating the monthly finances?  Perhaps they use their m/phones - ipods - sky boxes - football - pub et al, more than the internet.

There are obviously a lot for whom 'anything' will do.    They of course, are the ones who ring 'Mad' as soon as things go pear-shaped!

IMHO it's the ISPs such as you mention that are to blame in this instance, not the punters.


Mo

[Tacitus]

But have you considered that Broadband/Internet may not be their first consideration, when allocating the monthly finances?  Perhaps they use their m/phones - ipods - sky boxes - football - pub et al, more than the internet.

Their priorities are up to them.  However when asked 'which is the best ISP' and I tell them iDNet, Zen, Newnet etc I then get told they are too expensive.  In one case I was told quite literally I must have more money than sense as Demon are more expensive than Tiscali - the chosen one in that case.

Now if people don't want to accept my opinion that is fine I don't have a problem.  However I do have a problem when they ignore my opinion, 'go cheap', start whining and expect me to sort it out. 

I've had the same thing with Macs.  When asked I suggest a Mac.  After much experience I now add the rider that if they go Windows they're on their own, as I don't do Windows support.   

[Rik]

It's the only way to handle it, Tac. If people ignore advice, you are just landed with a shed load of trouble because they bought on price. My position is similar to yours, I will freely advise and explain why I make a recommendation but, if the individual decides to go against it, I make it clear to them that I am not willing to get involved in resolving any problems.

[Tacitus]

If people ignore advice, you are just landed with a shed load of trouble because they bought on price. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I make it clear to them that I am not willing to get involved in resolving any problems.

Don't blame you Rik.  I'm with you all the way. 

FWIW I could do Windows support but IMHO, it's more trouble than it's worth....

[Rik]

I do it out of habit. But not, ever, Tiscali et al. 

[MoHux]

We can all help the ones who are unlikely to have a problem.   


Mo

[Tacitus]

We can all help the ones who are unlikely to have a problem.   

True enough - why do you think we recommend iDNet et al 

Still, I wouldn't want to come across as a miserable sod who isn't prepared to help.   

Nonetheless, when you get peeps knocking on your door at 10pm (it has happened), because either "the computer's gone wrong" or the "internet is gone", the milk of human kindness does start to run a little thin.  Inevitably this happens when you've had one of those days you'd rather forget.   

And when you realise the problem is something you explained in detail and fixed last week, your enthusiasm does head further south at a rate of knots. 

[Rik]

We can all help the ones who are unlikely to have a problem.   

I've been helping others since the formation of Beebug in 1984, Mo. There comes a time, however, when patience evaporates as I'm asked to fix the same problem for the 10th time because "My friend knows all about computers and he changed..."

Like Tac, I've had people turn up at 10 with a problem, and they've left with a working machine, only to phone me an hour later because the problem came back when they installed some software which I'd told them not to use. Of course, they didn't backup or set a system restore etc etc etc.

I'll gladly give people help - but there have to be limits.

[MoHux]

But you two aren't unique!  Anyone who advertises to friends/family that they are at all computer savvy, is at some time or other in situations such as you mention.

It is how it's dealt with that matters.


Mo

[Tacitus]

Anyone who advertises to friends/family that they are at all computer savvy, .....

I don't advertise that I'm computer savvy and never have for the reasons we've discussed.  Unfortunately word got out, and being a helpful sort I, well, helped.  Fame, or notoriety if you prefer, is something I can do without, certainly as regards computing 

Easy answer is to buy a Mac (and/or enjoy the stability of Linux) and claim ignorance about Windows.   

It is how it's dealt with that matters.

TBH, I can't see how Rik or myself could do any differently.  You don't want to fall out with the neighbours, but you don't wish to end up using most of your leisure time as unpaid tech support for people who keep repeating the same mistakes over and over despite what you tell them.  You also find yourself competing against the bloke up the road who says they should do x, y or z, and, in effect tells them you don't know what you are doing.  Short answer (expletives deleted), go and see the other bloke....

What would you suggest?

[Rik]

I'm with you, Tac. If they have an 'expert' who broke the machine for them, let him fix it...

[Simon]

What annoys me is the lack of gratitude some people also show.  I have a cousin who emails me with a problem, and I only hear back from him if my suggestion doesn't work.  No such thing as a 'thanks' when it does.  I don't reply so readily now.

[Rik]

True enough, Simon. Silence until needed.

[madasahatter]

The most unbeleivable such call I've had was from an ex girlfriend a couple or so weeks after we'd split up (not my choice). She rang up pretending to be concerned about how I was going on, when the call was really about problems with her PC and what she should do about them. 

Imagine the satisfaction I got from telling her what I thought she should do about them (can't reproduce the conversation here - I'd get banned straight off ), and slamming the phone down. 

[Rik]

Now that is pushing it, Mad.  Of course, there was another way you could have handled the call.

[madasahatter]

What? You mean killing it altogether? The thought did cross my mind, but I'm not a nasty hoob

[Rik]

I think it might have gone "Double-click on My Computer, now right-click on the drive labelled C and choose format from the menu - that will fix it!" with me. 

[madasahatter]

I think it might have gone "Double-click on My Computer, now right-click on the drive labelled C and choose format from the menu - that will fix it!" with me. 

I sometimes wish I had to be honest 

[Simon]

I think it might have gone "Double-click on My Computer, now right-click on the drive labelled C and choose format from the menu - that will fix it!" with me. 

Technically, that wouldn't actually work, would it?  I don't think Windows would allow the drive with the OS to be formatted. 

[madasahatter]

Would you like to try your theory out Simon? 

[Rik]

Must admit, I've never tested it.

[Sebby]

It won't let you format it because it's in use.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Brave man, Sebby - I certainly wasn't going to test it.

[Sebby]

I knew from past experience, so I wasn't brave today.

[Rik]

I'd reply, but my C drive has disappeared.

[Sebby]

Nothing that a reboot can't cure, I'm sure.

[Simon]

It won't let you format it because it's in use.

That's what I meant, but you put it better, Seb.