The free laptop is a great incentive - if you can get it

[Rik]

TBH Rik, when you're on a rubbish line you learn pretty quickly 

You might think so, but I've lost count of the number of people I've advised against Tiscali, TT etc because of their line length only to be ignored until things go wrong. I was asked again today, and despite what I said, the enquirer said they thought they would go with Tiscali for price. I have wished them luck but said that I will not, under any circumstances, help them if they hit trouble. This time, I mean to try to stick to that.

[Rik]

Trust me, being in support isn't an easy job at the best of times............

That I know.

Could you not tele-commute, Mad?

[madasahatter]

Could you not tele-commute, Mad?

Now that would be useful - I wish   

The thing is that we have to be in the office because it is part of our data centre, so we have to be physically there because of back ups, swapping tapes, if servers need a cold reboot etc unfortunately.

[Rik]

That's a shame, Mad. I suspect 90% of what you do you could do remotely.

[madasahatter]

Sorry Rik - obviously edited my post after you'd posted to explain why I can't 

[Rik]

Couldn't they work with a small on-site core staff, and the rest remote?

[madasahatter]

The problem is that we're only a small team anyway, and obviously the DC demands 24/7/365 coverage

[MoHux]

Tbh David, I think that type of market is probably as big as 50% of the ISP market - possibly even bigger. I know plenty of peeps who turn their PC on, do a bit of surfing, send a couple of e-mails then turn their PC off, and that's it - the regular pattern for them. You look in any ISP forum, and it's usually more or less the same faces that you see complaining again and again - simply because they are among the small percentage that actually know what they are doing and therefore what they should be able to expect out of the ISP. Peeps sign up with these ISPs for a number of reasons - I would suspect mostly because they don't know what they're doing and they like the price. Those are the ones who will be happy with the substandard service.

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least.

I am inclined to think the problem is more that, in this country, people naively expect to get what the adverts tell them they will get.  They then can't be bothered to do anything about it when they don't.
Also I am afraid the majority of these ISPs rely on the anonymity that the medium provides, and the certainty that they won't be censured, to behave in a manner no other type of business would survive with.

This forum is proof that attitude does  make a difference, when those with knowledge want to help those who are still learning.  I am sure there are a lot of people reading this who would agree.

Rik, on more than one occasion, has said these people need a certificate of competence before being allowed online.  I think he is nearly right.  I think there should be lots of forums/places like this, where you don't get ridiculed for not knowing!!  Then their learning-curve would not be so long.

Mo



Wake up at the back there!!     

[David]

  Well said,As an ace idiot is most things to do with the pc.You are correct.When I started I saw the ads on TV at the time it was AOL.In defense of the human race I did think it was as easy as they made it out to be,and they still do,surf the internet,send Emails all that guff,Nothing in the ads will prepare you for the abject fear of once shelling out money,and struggling like hell to rig up a "Modem" got that sounds all technical..After reading the first page or the quick guide you are on !!!!then what all the buttons,very scary,somehow you have managed to get on to the web,took me about 2 hours,then I was terrified if I turned it off would it be ok tomorrow......in short it wasn't that much fun at all,all this was before the discovery of the My Computer button,and Microsoft office it was doomed from the start really in fact I think I ended up playing solitaire on the damn thing.
After a while I took a look at the forums boy they all had a language of their own.Ok so you ask a question ? WRONG !!!!!!boy do you get a hiding because you have either not spoken in this foreign language or asked a really basic question.....make note to yourself never get ridiculed like this again,so now you are on your own,so its every How To mag off the newsagent,sign up for all the monthly pc mags which send you dozens of discs and books,and fat binders which will one day be filled and end up in the loft or at a boot sale.....still not much the wiser.....so you roam aimlessly around giving the boards a wide birth,until the lord looks down and points you in the direction of IDnetters you read the boards for a month before daring to ask a question and with luck you are on your way to really getting to know things about your PC and for that matter about life.
Not all computer clever are so far up their rear ends they have no time for people who don't know as much and IDnetters must rate as one of the best forums on the web...it is unique in its concept and the understanding of all its users.
The main advantage is after you have spent time here,if you ever leave I assure you,you will leave much richer than the first day you posted..a lot wiser,and with luck humbled from being part of this family of like minded friends who share not just knowledge but  a lot more.........You wont find this quality in some clever TV ad........................some come here the short route,I came the long way and every step was worth it........................Thank you

[MoHux]

 

Mo

[madasahatter]

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least.

The thing is Mo, I am talking from real world experience of working on a support desk.

Yes, most families will have someone who works with a computer, but working with a computer and knowing what you are doing with one are oceans apart. Unfortunately, most peeps who work with computers know how to switch them on, log in, and do what they need to do with the apps that they have available to them. The trouble is, when those apps don't do what they think they ought to do then they are in big trouble, and haven't got a clue where to go from there except to their appropriate helpdesk.

Unfortunately, there are a lot (and yes I do mean a lot) of peeps out there who use computers at work who are not computer savvy at all - I know - I speak to them every single working day!!

[MoHux]

......... The trouble is, when those apps don't do what they think they ought to do then they are in big trouble, and haven't got a clue where to go from there except to their appropriate helpdesk.

But that is what they are told to do Mad.   By the people who made money selling it to them!

You mustn't complain when they do. 


Mo

[madasahatter]

But that is what they are told to do Mad.   By the people who made money selling it to them!

You mustn't complain when they do. 


Mo

Quite right Mo - and I'm not complaining about that - it's keeping me in a job after all. What I was trying to say (though probably in my hoob cack pawed way) was that just because peeps work with PCs doesn't mean they know even the basics of how they work, no matter what they think. As in you ask these peeps some very very basic troubleshooting questions ( as in things like do they still have an internet connection)  and they haven't got a clue what you are talking about!

[David]

To anyone outside this world Mad.Help Desk.......Help being the operative word someone new just knows they have a computer which inst doing what it should do.They know little or nothing about operating systems or applications,and for the people on the help desk  it must be so difficult,to them the task bar the and all the other things like look into properties,change settings,reboot,firewall,Ethernet cable,its all double dutch and until they invent a self healing pc it will carry on.
But there is another angle on this.a lot of isps help lines cost an absolute fortune to call so another cash cow to milk......

In reality if you told all the people what could lay ahead a lot of them would say "I wont bother" its big business surely ?

[madasahatter]

To anyone outside this world Mad.Help Desk.......Help being the operative world someone new just knows they have a computer which inst doing what it should do.

I'd agree with you 100% David if I was just talking about new staff (though even then I would expect that all school leavers have at least some experience with computers) - unfortunately often not the case. For instance, would you know where the "start" button is? That is the type of question I am talking about, where even experienced computer users at work are flummoxed. 

[David]

Blimey thats basic 

[madasahatter]

Blimey thats basic 

Entirely my point David - just because someone uses a computer at work day in day out doesn't mean they know anything at all about them - it just means that they know what they usually click to get the desired result, and if it doesn't happen they are totally lost.

If anyone is wondering, yes - I'm being serious here - more than once, in response to "click the start button", I've had "where's that?" or "what's that?", or even once I had "I knew you'd get technical on me" 

[Sebby]

It's a good point, and I suppose it's like anything really - you can learn to do something without understanding anything surrounding it. What I would say is that it can be very difficult for the generations that weren't brought up with computers.

[madasahatter]

What I would say is that it can be very difficult for the generations that weren't brought up with computers.

Totally agree - and, strange as it may seem, that would include most peeps 30 or over, and a fair proportion of those over 25 I would have thought.

[MoHux]

I am sorry Mad, of course I knew what you were saying, and why.

But I have no sympathy.  Billions of pounds have been, and are being, made from those people of whom you speak.
With absolute disregard of the technicalities of using the equipment, and whether or not they would be able to use it.
Nobody cares when they sell it to them, they know they can make another pile of money with the so-called support services.  Hundreds of pounds to show them where the Start buttton is that you talk about.

Every day on these forum I read of people complaining of being ripped off, whether by an ISP, or a retailler.  Mostly these stories are from people who are computer aware.  There are millions we never hear from, all paying their money and believing when told how simple it is to use.
Of course you get dumb questions, just consider yourself fortunate it's not you on the other end of the line who has just spent a small fortune on equipment, and is trying to get someone to tell them where to 'Start'.

 
Mo

[Tacitus]

I am surprised there are still so many that you consider computer illiterate.  With most families having someone who works with a computer, and/or kids who are working with them at school/uni, I would expect them to know the basics at least. 

Lot of truth in what you say.  However the key word is "computer" literate.  They may be ace at sorting out Windows problems, but Broadband is more of a telecoms problem.  It can or should, often involve rewiring the house phone system properly, not like my neighbour's which is a series of DIY plug in extensions, daisy chained via multi-point adaptors seemingly ad-infinitum.  I doubt they are unique.  How many would know there is a significant difference between UTP cable and the stuff they sell cheap at the local DIY?

I agree with Rik.  The others in the close think I've more money than sense because I advise them to steer clear of Tiscali, AOL, TT et al.  All they can see is the price.

[MoHux]

...... I agree with Rik.  The others in the close think I've more money than sense because I advise them to steer clear of Tiscali, AOL, TT et al.  All they can see is the price.

But have you considered that Broadband/Internet may not be their first consideration, when allocating the monthly finances?  Perhaps they use their m/phones - ipods - sky boxes - football - pub et al, more than the internet.

There are obviously a lot for whom 'anything' will do.    They of course, are the ones who ring 'Mad' as soon as things go pear-shaped!

IMHO it's the ISPs such as you mention that are to blame in this instance, not the punters.


Mo

[Tacitus]

But have you considered that Broadband/Internet may not be their first consideration, when allocating the monthly finances?  Perhaps they use their m/phones - ipods - sky boxes - football - pub et al, more than the internet.

Their priorities are up to them.  However when asked 'which is the best ISP' and I tell them iDNet, Zen, Newnet etc I then get told they are too expensive.  In one case I was told quite literally I must have more money than sense as Demon are more expensive than Tiscali - the chosen one in that case.

Now if people don't want to accept my opinion that is fine I don't have a problem.  However I do have a problem when they ignore my opinion, 'go cheap', start whining and expect me to sort it out. 

I've had the same thing with Macs.  When asked I suggest a Mac.  After much experience I now add the rider that if they go Windows they're on their own, as I don't do Windows support.   

[Rik]

It's the only way to handle it, Tac. If people ignore advice, you are just landed with a shed load of trouble because they bought on price. My position is similar to yours, I will freely advise and explain why I make a recommendation but, if the individual decides to go against it, I make it clear to them that I am not willing to get involved in resolving any problems.

[Tacitus]

If people ignore advice, you are just landed with a shed load of trouble because they bought on price. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I make it clear to them that I am not willing to get involved in resolving any problems.

Don't blame you Rik.  I'm with you all the way. 

FWIW I could do Windows support but IMHO, it's more trouble than it's worth....