New Router/Modem

[Maris]

 

I'm looking for a new router/modem for my home set-up of 1 wired & 1 wireless PCs. Any recommendations please?  Thanks.

[pup]

I asked a similar question when i first came to idnet this thread http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5712.0  contains the vert helpful answers i got 

[Rik]

Thanks, Pup. 

[Maris]

Thanks for your very useful reply, Pup. 

[pup]

no worries

[drummer]

Rather than start another thread with the same subject, I thought I'd hijack this one so that it makes searching easier in the future.  Sneaky and helpful too...

From some of the advice given to others on this forum, I'd pencilled in the Netgear DG834G v4 as a decent router, given that I'm only 780m from my exchange and don't really need the extra oomph offered by the 2wire 2700.

For the life of me I can't find the posts that helped me make that decision, so I'm just checking that the DG834G v4 is still a worthy contender or whether there's something better for slightly more (or less) dosh.  Requirements are for a simple home network with the occasional need for wireless connection.

My current D-link wireless router is very basic, uses the AR7 chipset, only supports 8Mb download speeds and the last firmware upgrade was in 2004, so I'm in the process of upgrading my hardware, not least because my exchange is enabling 21CN at the end of this month with a target switch date of Q1 next year. 

My thinking is that by March next year, I might understand my new router enough to be able to sign up to ADSL2 should it become available, although I'm probably being very optimistic on both counts (especially the bit about me understanding the router).

Current profile is 6500 with an interleaved sync of 7616 but used to be a 7100 profile with a sync of 8128 sync.

Think I'll stop rambling now, but any advice will be gratefully received.

[Sebby]

To be honest, you'll probably get full sync with anything as long as your attenuation is consistent with your distance. Like you say, it might not be worth getting the 2Wire. I'd say either a Netgear DG834Gv4 or a SpeedTouch 585v6.

[Maris]

I oredered the Netgear DG834GT on-line from PC World having read positive reviews about 'Netgear',. Went to collect it from the shop, they didn't have one even though I'd reserved it & up-graded me to a DG834PNUK Rangemax for the same price.
Connection has been solid throughout, unlike my previous D-Link & I'm very pleased. Looks good too.

   

[Rik]

 

Result.

[Sebby]

It's nice when a company's fault ends positively.

[drummer]

Thanks folks.  Finally opted for the Netgear although the Speedtouch was certainly a contender.

[Sebby]

Let us know how you get on.

[drummer]

The Netgear DG834G v4 arrived yesterday so I configured it in order to fire it up this morning, having already connected the Belkin RJ11 cable and XF-1e microfilter to the old router.

Well lawks a lummy, if it didn't connect successfully within seconds of me plugging in the RJ11 cable!  I made a note of my stats with the D-link for comparison with the Netgear and, as they don't mean a great deal to me, I was hoping some kindly soul would peruse them and let me know if they're better/worse, good or bad.

D-link stats:
Upstream Rate (Kbps)         448
Downstream Rate (Kbps)    7616
US Margin                24
DS Margin                   6
DS Line Attenuation           28
US Line Attenuation           32

Netgear stats:
Downstream                       Upstream
Connection Speed 7616 kbps       448 kbps
Line Attenuation     26.0 db          15.0 db
Noise Margin            7.1 db            23.0 db

The connection speed I do understand and I'm vaguely aware that attenuation is related to distance from the exchange (780 metres straight-line in my case), but for the life of me, I can't understand the whole SNR thing.  My grasp of numbers is equivalent to "The cat sat on the mat", so be gentle with me.

Many thanks in advance to anyone foolhardy enough to try and talk me through it...

[Rik]

Hi Drummer

The performance between the two is not hugely dissimilar.

Sync speeds are identical. The Netgear show a slightly better attenuation (note that Netgears show half the actual u/s attentuation, a bug that's been around for a couple of years, so it's reduced from 32 to 30db).

Noise margin suggests the Netgear is doing a bit better 7.1db against 6db d/s, but keep an eye on that, Netgears always tended to fade and fluctuate a bit. Upstream, the D-Link is doing slightly better at 24db rather then 23db - either figure is healthy.

It's just a case of watching how the Netgear performs over the next few days now, but it's looking fine for the moment.

[Sebby]

Netgears always tended to fade and fluctuate a bit. Upstream, the D-Link is doing slightly better at 24db rather then 23db - either figure is healthy.

But not necessarily the v4, given the superior chipset.

[drummer]

The Netgear is currently fluctuating between a 6.3db and 6.5db downstream noise margin - normal for this time of night maybe?

D-link rarely shifted from 6db but did sometimes plummet to 3db and on very rare occasions, it displayed a DS margin of 7db.  Is a higher number better?

Thanks Rik for the info about the Netgear u/s attenuation bug.

Trying to configure Routerstats at the moment.    For the first time ever, I keep getting errors from the BT speed tester, so I'll pursue that again tomorrow.

Anyone prepared to stick their neck out and give a good/bad opinion on my stats?

Here's hoping...

[Tacitus]

..........My current D-link wireless router is very basic, uses the AR7 chipset.........

To be honest I think there's an awful lot of mythology built up around the AR7.  Most of it seems to have come from Zen who for reasons that are still not clear, identified a problem with AR7s and their network.  Some of this could be down to the particular firmware, since many people including myself have AR7 based routers that perform pretty much as it says on the box.  Zen seemed to have identified a very specific combination of circumstances where certain AR7s are not the best routers.  That said, although I'm on a poor and noisy line (56dB attn) my Zyxel - AR7 based as are many of the Zyxels - will stay up for days.  I have seen one hold sync down to 1-2db on my sister's line, but intermittent noise bursts if severe enough will faze them, as it will on most routers.

That's not to say some other routers aren't better, in particular circumstances, or that the advice here is no good, something which would be far from the truth.  There is something of a black art  in matching the router to the particular characteristics of a line and as far as I know, nobody has quantified this except to say, "well try this one, it worked for me".  It would be a good idea if someone could start a survey with proper measured data to see which ones are, in general, the most reliable rather than the trial and error system we have.  Unfortunately that might tread on some manufacturers toes.

In the end what works for you on your line is what matters.   

[Sebby]

Personally, I think the AR7 issues are founded. Just look at the older Netgear routers and how the SNRM fluctuates, sometimes into negative figures. I think the Broadcom-based v4 shows that the AR7 is a poor chipset, or certainly incompatible with certain DSLAMs.

The Netgear is currently fluctuating between a 6.3db and 6.5db downstream noise margin - normal for this time of night maybe?

That's a tiny, tiny movement, and nothing to worry about. If it fluctuates between 6.3 and 6.5dB, I'd say that's very stable.

D-link rarely shifted from 6db but did sometimes plummet to 3db and on very rare occasions, it displayed a DS margin of 7db.  Is a higher number better?

Generally, higher is better, but as the sync is the same, it makes no difference. And we're only talking a tiny difference here, which is probably only due to how the routers report the figure anyway.

Anyone prepared to stick their neck out and give a good/bad opinion on my stats?

Your stats are good. I'd say the SNRM is potentially a bit low given such a low attenuation, but as you're getting full sync (I think 7,616k indicates interleaving is on, but perhaps someone can confirm) at an SNRM over 6dB, it's fine. This is probably down to noise pickup on internal wiring, and a filtered faceplate or removal of the ring wire would help improve this figure considerably (in your case, this would only really benefit you in giving a bit more margin in case of surges of noise).

Ultimately, your stats are good and you can leave all alone, unless you want to mess around.

[Rik]

Can't argue with that.

[Tacitus]

.....Personally, I think the AR7 issues are founded. Just look at the older Netgear routers and how the SNRM fluctuates, sometimes into negative figures. I think the Broadcom-based v4 shows that the AR7 is a poor chipset, or certainly incompatible with certain DSLAMs.

"with certain DSLAMs" are the operative words.  Effectively the AR7 works with many lines but under certain circumstances will fail.  You suggest that SNRM fluctuates sometimes into negative figures, but is this due to bad reporting or is it actually that low?  Is it down to the firmware and not the chipset?  The problem is that nobody has done any strict comparisons, so all of this is anecdotal.  This doesn't mean it's not true, but it would be wrong to condemn all AR7s, since on many lines people dont have problems.

[Rik]

Tha egae-old problem, Tac. We only ever have personal or anecdotal evidence to go on. Ofcom, or someone of that ilk, should set up a test across a range of lines/equipment. For myself, the 2-Wire lifted my profile by 1Mbps with no drops compared to the Netgear. Chipset or firmware? I really don't know.

[Tacitus]

Tha age-old problem, Tac. We only ever have personal or anecdotal evidence to go on. Ofcom, or someone of that ilk, should set up a test across a range of lines/equipment. For myself, the 2-Wire lifted my profile by 1Mbps with no drops compared to the Netgear. Chipset or firmware? I really don't know.

And perhaps it doesn't really matter which it is.   

I agree their should be a standard set of test signals for manufacturers to test their chips and firmware against.  Maybe one of the magazines could set up a comparison with some independent comms guru putting signals through the kit to represent good/bad lines, noisy lines, a 'flapping' simulation and so on.  Not only would this give consumers some useful info, it might make the manufacturers get off their a...s and generally improve the products for the UK market.  I suspect in many cases the UK market is treated as an afterthought and we get the Australian firmware or some such. 

Given people's experience with the 2-Wire it obviously can be done. 

[Rik]

I'm with you there, but given Ofcom's record, I don't see it happening.

[drummer]

Thanks all for the replies.  Seems I've reached the peak of what my line is capable of, seeing as my stats are very similar with both types of chipset.  Add to that, no bell wire, no extensions, twisted-pair cat5 cable, shiny new router and a decent microfilter.  Can't do anything about the telegraph poles though.

The Netgear's interface and log are a vast improvement on the D-link's though, so if I get randomly disconnected in the future, I might have at least some idea of the cause.

Thanks again for all the very helpful and informative replies.

[Rik]

Can't do anything about the telegraph poles though.

Could have gone to SpecSavers, Drummer.