Is my broadband capped at 128k do you think?

[gyruss]

Since last thursday (19/08/2008), have had the most appalling connection speed I think I've ever had while on IDNET.  Prior to this i've had the odd outages in the past.. but those were very very rare occasions.

Just done some broadband speed tests this morning, and i'm finding that my 'up to 8mb' service is currently performing as a 128k (twice the speed of a dialup modem) connection.  A download i tried from cisco/linksys of a firmware upgrade for my router (86mb file) quoted me 2 hours+ for the download and never got above 15.9k/sec.

Did a broadband speedtest from ZDNET:  4008 kbits took 31 seconds to perform.  That was half of a 256k connection on the bar graph comparison it shown.

Now I play Age of Conan, and found that from thursday night its been simply unplayable due to this.

When this first happened, i logged onto my idnet account and checked the status of the servers etc, all shown as 'good', and when i looked at my account, it shown the latest invoice as unpaid (18th of June).. strange i thought? because the C/Card details are for a card that not only has no problems whatsoever, but its also a valid card until mid 2009..

So anyway, used another card, payment immediately authorised, and the account as of checking right now shows as PAID.

So i guess what i desparately need to know is this:  Do IDNET cap your broadband speed for any reason like this without trying to make contact first ?     I just find it a bit.. funny.. that it seems to be purposely set at the 128k mark.. almost like an emergency webbrowsing mode?

Any ideas anyone?

[Rik]

Welcome to the forum.

No, IDNet would have contacted you, they never cap.

Can you post your router stats - downstream attenuation, noise margin and sync speed. Also, if possible, get a BT test and post the results of that. ATM, it sounds to me like you have a very low profile, possibly due to a line fault.

[Sebby]

As Rik says really. IDNet do not cap. Please post stats and do a BT speed test - I suspect instability has caused your profile to drop to 135k, but that's just a guess.

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi,



Sorry to hear about your problems. As Rik and Sebby state this is definitely not IDNet's doing. First quick check... Have you plugged in anything new to the phone line recently? New phone? Cordless? Fax? Sky box?

Which make and model of filters do you have? How old are they? Do you have one in every socket? Has someone plugged something in without a filter?

Which modem do you have and how old is it?

When you make voice calls what is the quality of the line like? Does it crackle or is it noisy in some other way?

Cheers,
Paul.

[gyruss]

Sorry for the delay, been busy trying to get this going, testing with another router, a new telephone cable, new filter... no further success...  thanks for responding so far, hope this further info gives some clues.

Ok set up is as follows:

Main BT socket is downstairs in the hall.  Plugged into that is the router, filter and the only telephone for the entire house.

Telephone is not crackly in any way and is crystal clear.  Telephone when in use also does not disrupt the internet.  This suggests the filter is working correctly.  I have however tried another filter since this 'problem' and the problem is still present.

Ran the speedtest from BT about 10 mins ago:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  5760 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 91 kbps

There was a 2nd test it suggested which was to change the login on my dsl to bt_test_user which i did at router level because the 2nd test 'seems' to  be for users who dial up on dsl? anyway, the router connected but the 2nd test just got page cannot be displayed, nor could it see any other webpage either, so couldn't proceed with test 2.

IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps - is I think the concern.  The only time i've disconnected any equipment from the line recently has been since this problem occurred.

Tested with 2 DSL routers
1: Linksys WAG54GS and
2: Netgear DG834PN)

Also i went out and bought ANOTHER telephone extention (DSL Approved), and the results are exactly the same.

I rang IDNET 'out of hours support', and spoke to I presume one of their engineers, however i'm guessing he rang me back from home or something because i could hear children in the background, i was told that the problem was most likely to be the profile, and that i now have to wait the entire weekend until monday for BT to do something about this?  I'm also presuming now that they meant BT Wholesale.  I came off that phone call feeling proper down, with the prospect of my entire weekend off ruined.. i rang bt anyway who contacted BT wholesale to see if there was any reason IDNET could not call them.  There was definitely someone at BT wholesale according to bt as they rang them up.. and so i passed this info back to IDNET who then proceed to tell me that the reason i now have to wait until monday is because whatever service it is that allows them to raised problems with BT wholesale at weekends costs an extra £10 a month???


Now further:

My Netgear router is my old router and i did replace this with the linksys one which has been absolutely fine, giving me 67ms in Age of Conan with the 'odd spike' now and again which many players of that game reported anyway, but my netgear router has this info if it helps:

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    5760 kbps    832 kbps
Line Attenuation    38.0 db    22.0 db
Noise Margin    14.5 db    12.0 db

Filters that i've got are:
Z-Blocker Z-420UK-A and another which sorry hasn't got any determining make/model on it.  Sorry.

Basically the way it 'looks' at the moment, its the IP Profile thats caused this? with the exception of changing the telephone extention cable to the router (as its upstairs), no other disconnections have been done.  but to have been aggressively forced onto this horrid 135k connection for an entire weekend has rather depressed me.  Picked a bad week to give up smoking :/  day 3 and now i wish i hadn't stopped.

[gyruss]

Sorry, forgot to mention, the only reason i changed the extention cable in the first place was because i was getting 4000 downstream approx, so wanted to try to rule out noise/interference etc.

I'd really like to sort the problem out, so was just covering bases.

[Sebby]

The IP profile is to blame (something outside IDNet's control). It's most likely set at 135k due to instability, which I'd say is confirmed by the fact that your SNRM is 14.5dB, suggesting a 15dB target SNRM set by the exchange in an attempt to combat this.

You mention that this only happened on Thursday, so you probably had a "one-off" surge of noise that caused several re-syncs. Not only had this affected the profile, but the target SNRM (unless this happened at an earlier time if your line has been unstable in the past). Going by your attenuation, I'd say you could get full sync if the target SNRM was the default 6dB, but this is something we can address later on once the profile is sorted.

The profile should recover by itself in about 3 days, assuming your sync is stable. Have you checked the logs to see if you've lost sync since Thursday?

Otherwise, IDNet can get this reset by BT on Monday.

[gyruss]

Firstly, thank you.   It is very much appreciated that you took the time to reply and indeed to state your intention to perhaps help later on once this particular issue is sorted.

I've installed RouterStates Lite (v2.7b) which is now monitoring  the noise margin(db) and connection speed and it seems to be updating its graphs now ever 3-4 minutes or so, might be handy for monitoring peaks etc.

So you know the level of my computing, i'm a desktop support engineer for a large corporate, so please feel free to be techy with me, if i don't understand something, i'll definitely say so

I moved into the current house around feb/march of last year, and to be honest, i've never once had as good a connection at this house as i had at the last, and now seeing the noise(db) etc, do you think this could be the reason why?

The house is relatively new (10 years old), and i've not really looked inside the master socket at the pairing at all, but looking at the guides shown on this rather useful (if i may say so) forum, could it be that the master socket may contain part of the reason for excess noise?  I've routed my telephone extention so it doesn't pass any power points, and ensured no damage done while installing it too, am quite happy to buy yet another extension from any recommended source however and install that instead.. they don't look like they have incredible shielding on these extension cables, they are kind flat'ish.  The last one i bought from maplin which said it was adsl approved and well, you kind buy based on that half the time..well at least i did anyway

[Rik]

I agree with Sebby that you appear to have had a burst of noise which was bad enough to both depress your profile and push up the target noise margin. IDNet can do something about the former on Monday, if it hasn't already righted itself, however, reducing target margins is something that BT don't like to do manually. Instead, theoretically, if you maintain sync for 14 days, the target NM will drop to 12db, repeating in 3db steps. However, IDNet can run a woosh test, and if they can see a line fault, once that has been resolved, they stand a chance of getting bT to move the margin.

What you were told was correct, btw, to get this kind of fault looked at over a weekend requires you to have 'extra care' at £10pm.

[Dangerjunkie]

hi,

OK. What appears to have happened is your router repeatedly lost sync and the software (DLM) in the exchange that manages line stability has started knocking your profile down and your target signal to noise margin (SNRM) up in order to stabilise your line and stop the router dropping and resyncing. Unfortunately this process appears not to have been successful and it's kept going down until it hit the bottom stop. Disconnecting your modem repeatedly may also cause the exchange to think the sync is being lost and prevent recovery. Some routers give a "last gasp" signal to say they're going down when you pull the power out of them so the exchange knows it's not a loss of sync so it's good advice to always pull the power out of the modem before disconnecting the phone cable.

The sync speeds are the actual speeds the router is working electrically with the exchange at. The profile is an artificial limit put on the speed by the exchange software so that it doesn't try to pour more data down the line than can reasonably be carried (including errors) so that the whole system doesn't descend into TCP retransmission hell. If a profile gets knocked down but the line quality improves and the sync recovers and is consistent thereafter the exchange will slowly knock it back up. Depending on how different the sync and profile are this may take up to 5-6 days (it often recovers quicker from large changes and these are interpreted as being due to some noise event that is now over.) Unfortunately I don't think this will recover much during the weekend. The fact that you've had this sync drop does tend to imply that the new cables aren't good for ADSL and should go. Is your master socket one of the new NTE5a sockets (the ones with the line across the centre which you can remove the bottom half of if you take the screws out?

As a quick test I would take the modem downstairs to the master socket, unplug everything from the socket then (if it's an NTE5a) remove the screws and take the bottom half off. Then connect the filter and modem to the "test socket" behind. See what kind of sync you get then. If it improves significantly then your extension wiring is an issue.

Oval or flat extension cables are generally a bad idea as the pairs inside them are laid flat rather than being twisted so they lose the ability to reject interference that may mess the signal up. If I have to extend a phone line that carries ADSL I always use CAT5 cable (I'm sure you probably have a box kicking around at work .) Additionally extensions on a reel form lovely coils that pick up RF beautifully. My friend put their ADSL router on a 25m ultraflat extension reel (most of which was still on the reel) and wondered why they only had a 750k profile when their neighbours had megs.

To get the best out of your line I would do the following:

1)All filters are not created equal. I would buy an ADSLNation XTE2005 filtered faceplate (assuming you do have an NTE5a master socket - If not BT will come and change your master socket to an NTE5a for you for £30) http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=105 These are pro-grade ferrite filters and will give you the best isolation and impedance match to the line. Unless you have a Sky box you won't need filters on the other socket(s) any more.

2) Most cables supplied with routers are the cr*ppy flat ones. I would buy an ADSLNation professional twisted-pair modem cable to connect the modem to the socket. http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/index.php?cPath=21 (or knock one up yourself if you have some CAT5 and a couple of RJ11s) The only pins that need connecting are the centre pair. If you want to stay with soap-on-a-rope filters I would go with a set of ADSLNation XF-1e filters. http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=54

3)Move your router downstairs and site it next to the master socket. Run the Ethernet upstairs on CAT5 (or a Devolo mains networking rig) and put a switch up there.

4)Disconnect the ring wire (pin 3) in all your phone sockets. 90%+ of phones will work without it and it acts as an antenna for interference as it's not balanced.

Good luck, Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Paul.

[Rik]

Well spotted, Paul. The way I read reply #4 initially was that the router was plugged into the socket in the hall, I missed the extension lead. This has to be a prime suspect, particularly if the connection to the router is not run with proper twisted pair cable.

[Sebby]

Ah yes, I missed that too. As Paul says, a filtered faceplate is a sure way to get the connection the best it can be on your side of the fence, so to speak.

[Baz]

sorry to hijack this thread but Paul mentioned about the standard cables with routers and making one up with some CAT5. Is this the same cable as used for router to computer just with different ends fitted?



I know this wont help Gyruss in anyway but I see similarities in what he says with a problem I have had over the past few months. Dropped connections, slow speeds etc. have had BT out twice in the last month and sure enough when they get here the line has picked up and they never find anything wrong. a week after they called it went again, my ISP, not IDNet BTW, told me that they will get them out again but just had the same result in that they couldnt find a fault. A pattern seemed to be formimg with this as it too went on a thursday or friday and was like that all weekend, one time over a bank hol so was down till a tuesday, they told me the BT cover costs £15 p/m though.

I use a Netgear DG834PN too. It has always been good for me until this prob but I still dont think its the router. When I first went on MAX package I got  results like this

IP profile for your line is - 7150 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 6667 kbps

from BT tester  constantly even after manual disconnects it re-synced at that and would hold it for months, after this prob I get this

IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  6112 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4550 kbps

which doesnt seem right to me  but they see no fault, its above the fault threshold so its 'ok'. BT fiddled about and made it worse, in my view.

anyway  sorry for the hijack and hope you get it sorted soon, not an expert but it does sound like a line fault that will 'put itself right'. You will have tried this already but I used to disconnect and power down the router for 20mins or so and see if that worked.

Baz

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi Baz,

sorry to hijack this thread but Paul mentioned about the standard cables with routers and making one up with some CAT5. Is this the same cable as used for router to computer just with different ends fitted?

Yes. It's the same cable with RJ11 plugs (the small ones) fitted. Pin 1 and 6 aren't present on the plug so you see 4 pins (2,3,4 and 5). Connect the middle two (3&4) on one end to the middle two on the other using one pair (e.g orange and orange-white) of a piece of CAT5. I usually connect 3 to 4 and 4 to 3.

Cheers,
Paul.

[Baz]

Thanks Paul.

can you get better quality cable and fittings then or is it all the same

[Dangerjunkie]

There's various grades of cable. I haven't done any research but the frequencies used by ADSL are relatively low and only on one pair so I'd imagine anything CAT5 or above should do it just as well. Just make sure the conductors are solid not stranded. From what I've seen connectors are much of a muchness.

Cheers,
Paul.

[gyruss]

Ok, I tested the netgear router in the hall, connected directly to the BT master socket.

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    5760 kbps    832 kbps
Line Attenuation    38.0 db    22.0 db
Noise Margin    14.8 db    12.0 db

This effectively I hope shows that the problem is not with the extension cable(s) that i ran up the stairs?

I've since checked so many things now, with absolutely nothing coming up as conclusive.  I need to keep costs down trying to fix the issue however as we have a new baby in the house so guess where my money goes

Anyway, 2 routers tried, 1 tested in the hall with a 'shielded' cable round/twisted that connects between the router and the filter, tried 2 different phone extensions for the 'upstairs' connected scenario.. and the only thing left through all of this is the plain and simple fact..

the IP profile being set at 135k.

Is there anything that can be set by the ISP & BT to take into account the noise(db) ?  something that will mean the sync won't be lost as much?  i'm only 1.6km from the exchange too, you'd think i'd be ok.

Its not like i'm after the magical 8192 downstream either, i can manage just fine with 5000-6000, but 135? I think i'd rather move house again and go cable if i was forced to stay on that

[Lance]

Don't worry, the profile will take a maximum of 5 days to lift, and because yours is a large increase it should happen sooner. Either way, if it is still low on Monday i would give support a ring and ask them to speak nicely to BT! Enjoy the rest of your weekend off!

[Sebby]

Ok, I tested the netgear router in the hall, connected directly to the BT master socket.

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    5760 kbps    832 kbps
Line Attenuation    38.0 db    22.0 db
Noise Margin    14.8 db    12.0 db

This effectively I hope shows that the problem is not with the extension cable(s) that i ran up the stairs?

I've since checked so many things now, with absolutely nothing coming up as conclusive.  I need to keep costs down trying to fix the issue however as we have a new baby in the house so guess where my money goes

Anyway, 2 routers tried, 1 tested in the hall with a 'shielded' cable round/twisted that connects between the router and the filter, tried 2 different phone extensions for the 'upstairs' connected scenario.. and the only thing left through all of this is the plain and simple fact..

the IP profile being set at 135k.

Is there anything that can be set by the ISP & BT to take into account the noise(db) ?  something that will mean the sync won't be lost as much?  i'm only 1.6km from the exchange too, you'd think i'd be ok.

Its not like i'm after the magical 8192 downstream either, i can manage just fine with 5000-6000, but 135? I think i'd rather move house again and go cable if i was forced to stay on that

Testing the router in the master socket is, believe it not, the same as trying in an extension socket, as it forms part of the loop. If you take the bottom panel off the master socket carefully, there is another socket behind (the test socket). This is where the line comes into the house, and will allow you to test the connection excluding extension wiring from the equation.

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi,

The fact that your sync has stayed the same doesn't mean the extension wiring is OK. It means that the extension wiring is carrying the ADSL signal and isn't immediately messing your sync up. If the extension wiring isn't balanced (twisted pairs) then it could still be compromising the interference immunity of the system but if there is no interference right now you will probably sync OK. The problem is likely to happen when a source of interference is present (like cars/motorcycles driving past, your neighbour using his petrol lawn mower or your central heating kicking in and out.)

The 135k profile is what is stopping you going fast. However you need to take into account why the profile has gone down. The profile is the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Some source of electrical interference has come near your phone line (e.g. a faulty electric motor, a badly suppressed petrol engine ignition or a radio transmitter/medium wave broadcast signal) Your line failed to reject this interference (likely down to the extension cable and filters) and this has caused your modem to lose sync and disconnect from the Internet.

This interference and disconnections obviously happened a large number (10s) of times and the exchange has decided that there is a problem with your line. It turned your speed down and raised your target SNRM to try and keep the line working. This didn't help so it did it again... and again... until you ended up at the lowest speed possible. You can get the profile reset but unless you fix the problem that is letting the interference in then it's almost certainly only a matter of time before it happens again.

The sync/profile tells us that the quality of your line is probably OK (your sync is respectable and is higher than mine) but you're probably suffering from bursts of interference. The problem is likely that there is some source of electrical or radio interference that comes into your environment quite frequently, that your installation is failing to keep it out and that when it happens it causes your router to totally lose connection. I notice that your old profile was lower than the sync value would suggest. This tells me that it is likely your system has trouble holding full sync at night when radio interference is the strongest. Another indicator that you may have a wiring issue.

Even if your router is connected to the master socket, if you haven't removed the bottom half of the socket and disconnected your extensions then the extension wiring is still connected to the line and will be functioning as an aerial, picking up stray signals and interference and funnelling them straight back into your master socket.

I stand by my advice given earlier.

Cheers,
Paul.

[LesD]

I stand by my advice given earlier.

I second that Paul.

Have a for a clear, if not concise, nevertheless excellent explanation. 

I speak from experience having "been in BT's jail" with an IP Profile of 135 Kpbs myself. 
As already mentioned by others I was let out after 3 days but with no time off for good behaviour. 

[gyruss]

An improvement tonight in my connection speed.

speedtester.bt.com reports @ 00:45am (monday morning):

IP profile for your line is - 4500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 832 kbps(UP-STREAM)  5664 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4175 kbps

[vitriol]

result 

[Rik]

That's the correct profile for your sync speed, Gyruss, but the latter had dropped since you first reported it, which suggests an instability with your line. Have you tried the test socket yet?

[Sebby]

Looking better, but as Rik says, it looks like the noise is quite variable. You should definitely give the test socket a go!