Mail issues

Malc · Jul 04, 2008, 11:06:20

Quote from: Rik on Jul 04, 2008, 11:03:18
Based on previous experience, Malc, there will be no data loss, but it may take a while for the backlog to get sorted.

Taken from the post on the welcome page

At this point, there will be some data loss - what will be on the new server will be the last backup
before the failure. IDNet will be recovering data from the old server as soon as possible.

Jul 04, 2008 - 09:20

Sebby · Jul 04, 2008, 11:07:52

Yep, because they're going to have to restore a backup onto a new server.

I guess there's always the possibility that Trevor will come back to life and they can recover the emails not contained in the backup, but we'll just have to say (that's just what I think, not what IDNet have said!).

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:09:34

Quote from: Tacitus on Jul 04, 2008, 11:04:10

As others have said, doing fsck on a disk does not give any indication of progress. It might have done 5% or 50% - nobody knows. As a result the tendency is to wait 'just a little bit longer', which, as we've seen can become a very long time. With hindsight it would have been better to put a standby in operation, but hindsight is always exact. No doubt this will come out in any internal review.

Although short term there may be some loss of confidence, the fact remains that iDNet is a solid company which tries to offer a good product and look after its customers. It has done this for some time and deservedly gained a good reputation. No company on earth is immune to the occasional failure and I doubt that long term the damage will be too serious.

I have two problems with that, Tac. fsck does give a file count, so could that not have been checked against the latest backup?

Secondly, this is the second hardware issue with Trevor in 9 months, with two other major delay episodes due to spam. Surely a review should have already taken place and contingency plans created?

Gary · Jul 04, 2008, 11:10:07

I think 44 hours is beyond waiting past the common sense threshold with fsck really when you have the ability to get it up and running with another server, but that's just my opinion

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:10:58

Quote from: Malc on Jul 04, 2008, 11:06:20
At this point, there will be some data loss - what will be on the new server will be the last backup
before the failure.

but...

IDNet will be recovering data from the old server as soon as possible.

Steve · Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:38

I just wonder how many other ISP's would be so concerned about data loss? Is it normal practise for an ISP to back up their mail server?I could ask tiscali but I'd be waiting as long for a reply.

batsys · Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:48

Quote from: Simon on Jul 04, 2008, 11:01:33
I can only agree that this has gone on far too long, and that hopefully, provisions will be put in place to prevent anything like this happening again.

Hopefully? - to many businesses, like mine, email is mission critical. Hopefully doesn't enter in to it. We expect statements like "provisions will be put in place etc..". While there are no guarantees in life (apart from death and taxes) using terms like "hopefully" does not fill me with confidence.

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:14:00

Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:38
I just wonder how many other ISP's would be so concerned about data loss? Is it normal practise for an ISP to back up their mail server?I could ask tiscali but I'd be waiting as long for a reply.

Any ISP worth their salt should be backing up their servers daily, Steve. The problem with a mail server is that it's a moving target, it literally changes by the second, hence I think recovery will be in two stages - this will mainly impact people using IMAP.

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:14:52

Quote from: batsys on Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:48
Hopefully? - to many businesses, like mine, email is mission critical. Hopefully doesn't enter in to it. We expect statements like "provisions will be put in place etc..". While there are no guarantees in life (apart from death and taxes) using terms like "hopefully" does not fill me with confidence.

What package are you on, Batsys? Welcome to the forum.

Sebby · Jul 04, 2008, 11:14:56

Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:38
I just wonder how many other ISP's would be so concerned about data loss? Is it normal practise for an ISP to back up their mail server?I could ask tiscali but I'd be waiting as long for a reply.

Perhaps IDNet can because of their relatively small size. Maybe it's a lot more difficult for larger ISPs. But I don't know, perhaps they do as well.

Malc · Jul 04, 2008, 11:16:45

Quote from: Rik on Jul 04, 2008, 11:10:58
but...

IDNet will be recovering data from the old server as soon as possible.

Right, I understood that to mean up to the last restore point,

my mistake then

Gary · Jul 04, 2008, 11:16:53

Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 04, 2008, 11:11:38
I just wonder how many other ISP's would be so concerned about data loss? Is it normal practise for an ISP to back up their mail server?I could ask tiscali but I'd be waiting as long for a reply.

That's not the point, this is IDNet not tiscali thats why people pay a pemium for them as an ISP or Host service, so this should not have been the case at all, its not a comparison you can really make here and as Sebby said the bigger ISP's have much more traffic and it would probably be impossible to make a recovery on that scale.

batsys · Jul 04, 2008, 11:17:54

Quote from: Rik on Jul 04, 2008, 11:14:52
What package are you on, Batsys? Welcome to the forum.

We're on Business Broadband Max

Sebby · Jul 04, 2008, 11:19:52

Steve · Jul 04, 2008, 11:20:28

Quote from: Killhippie on Jul 04, 2008, 11:16:53
That's not the point, this is IDNet not tiscali thats why people pay a pemium for them as an ISP or Host service, so this should not have been the case at all, its not a comparison you can really make here and as Sebby said the bigger ISP's have much more traffic and it would probably be impossible to make a recovery on that scale.

I suppose its easy for me to be flippant as idnet.com email loss is of very little consequence to me. I would be upset if my email service hosted elsewhere was in similar straits.

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:21:37

Quote from: batsys on Jul 04, 2008, 11:17:54
We're on Business Broadband Max

Unfortunately, that uses the 'free' mail. Ideally, you should be on the idnet.co.uk package at £4pm - that's suffered no downtime. If you are running your own domain, and I assume you are, this package would b the best one:

http://www.idnet.net/solutions/filtereddomainmail.jsp

Simon · Jul 04, 2008, 11:28:07

Batsys, hello, and welcome.

I have to use the word 'hopefully' because it's not my business, and as a member of this forum, I cannot guarantee what stance IDNet will take on this, but again, can reiterate that I *hope* they will take preventative measures, and feel sure that they will.

batsys · Jul 04, 2008, 11:31:37

Simon,

Sorry I didn't notice your .sig. Next time I'll look before I leap!

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:43:39

We're in the same straits as you, Batsys.

davej99 · Jul 04, 2008, 11:45:59

I thought long and hard about using IDNET as my email service versus other options. For me it is a real chore changing email ID's and it takes a couple of days to update all the services I use. Moving to IDNET mail was the third such change in a year. My rationale was that any ISP that can manage reliable uncontended broadband should be able to deliver a faultless email service. Moreover, I had noticed there had been a brief mail outage, which can happen in the best regulated organisations. Lessons learned I thought. The adage goes; once is unfortunate twice is careless. However, four times is well below par for a premium priced ISP. More worrying is discovering that email is not on a dedicated server. The implication is that resources are a bit tight. I think we need some assurances that this is going to be the last email failure. I strikes me IDNET customers are technically quite savvy and will not tolerate excuses but vote with the feet.

The level of customer loyalty thus far achieved by IDNET is spectacular. Just don't blow it by not attending to the basics. Oh, and an apology might be in order.

Sebby · Jul 04, 2008, 11:49:16

Well put, Dave. Knowing IDNet, they will be extremely disappointed and upset about this, but I'd imagine they are feeling such great pressure that an apology will have to follow.

Malc · Jul 04, 2008, 11:52:36

Well said, what I suspect most of us are thinking Dave

Rik · Jul 04, 2008, 11:55:01

I agree. The staff are finding it impossible to defend this situation, we are customers too.

davej99 · Jul 04, 2008, 12:03:52

The trick is not to defend problems like this, but to embrace them as opportunities. It is a chance to show customers in the fragile technological world that IDNET can handle disasters, learn and become stronger as a result.

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Tacitus · Jul 04, 2008, 12:08:02

Quote from: Rik on Jul 04, 2008, 11:09:34
I have two problems with that, Tac. fsck does give a file count, so could that not have been checked against the latest backup?

Fair point Rik

Quote from: Rik on Jul 04, 2008, 11:09:34
Secondly, this is the second hardware issue with Trevor in 9 months, with two other major delay episodes due to spam. Surely a review should have already taken place and contingency plans created?

I can't really argue with that, but my original point remains, nobody is completely immune to failure. However, if as you say all of these problems have been with this particular machine then you're absolutely right some sort of contingency plan should have been in operation. One thing we (or I) don't know, is whether it is the same physical machine or whether the original Trevor was replaced 9 months ago.

To be honest I really should keep out as it's not my business - I'm not even on iDNet!