Slow Speeds since I got the 8meg Max service

[Simon_idnet]

Hi Hairyman

As discussed previously the Profile for your line will rise and fall to follow any changes in line characteristics. Unfortunately your line appears to experience many large fluctuations and hence changes in Profile and throughput. BT state that the DLM is functioning correctly for your line by adapting to changing conditions. The question is: 'what causes the changing conditions' and I think that your asessment may well be correct in suspecting the quality of the cable (and joints) between your property and the exchange. I am afraid that there is not a resolution to this that we can provide, BT will not replace the cabling as they regard the ADSL service as operating within normal limits.

We can artificially increase the noise margin for you in order to improve stability but this will, naturally, reduce your speed. Or, you can revert to the fixed-rate service that you had before ADSL Max.

Given the high cost of a BT Engineer visit (that we would expect to result in a "no fault found") I would hazard that the most cost-effective course of action for you would be to order a new phone line from BT and then to move your broadband service (and telephone number) to the new line.

Regards
Simon

[Rik]

Thanks, Simon. Although you don't mention it, I would add that ordering a new line through IDNet is cheaper than ordering through BT.

[zappaDPJ]

Apologies for jumping into what must be hair pulling experience (no pun intended) at such a late stage but reading back a few posts something stood out that seems to point to an obvious solution. If you have noise on the line when using the phone and have eliminated problems inside of your property then surely you just need to report a faulty line to BT? I haven't read through the entire thread but setting aside the issue of whether or not your line is suitable for sustaining ADSL you should not get 'squeaks, wails and pops' when using the phone.

It sounds like you need a new twisted pair and in my humble opinion if IDNet cannot drag a more stable connection out of the current cable then no other ISP will be able to either. If BT insist that the line is up to standard for phone use then your only option is a to order a second line or go with a cable supplier.

Again, it's a long thread and I haven't read it all so apologies if this has already been suggested and done, but it seems to me you should report it as a phone fault.

[davej99]

Hairy is reporting "52 disconnects in a few hours." If that cannot persuade BT to survey the line then nothing will. To suggest this is within "normal limits" is laughable. All we need so close to the exchange is a half decent voice line and Hairy has not got it. To charge for an engineer is near criminal. To buy a new line would be abject submission. If we consumers and our best of breed ISPs just roll over BT will never change.

[Simon_idnet]

davej99, it was that instability that caused the DLM to raise the noise margin and hence the Profile was lowered - the DLM was reacting to the change in line condition. After the line stabilised again, the Profile rose. The history of this line shows that the Profile might likely remains stable now for quite a while. But then it may experience another noise episode. That the voice quality is poor is certainly something that BT Retail could investigate - an audibly noisy line will adversely affect the DSL signal.
Simon

[hairyman]

HI Dave
Thanks for yr support , to some extent Simon is correct, we have just finished a long dry spell , basically we have had little rain/snow since the big fall of snow in Feb ( the garden was showing the signs with cracks and lack of grass growing) , this week we had a good steady rain over two days. This will result in the underground cables getting a good drenching in their ducts and if the normal pattern follows the noisy line and drop outs will minimise.

The line noise is very persistant but intermittant. When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!) . Most of the time it is OK so whenever they do a line test it is passed OK , I think they have been out checking my line as we have had a lot of blank calls from a BT freephone number in the last few weeks.

The line attn remains 38db downstream for the 400mtrs exchange LOS distance. The current sync is 6400kbps at a SNR of 17db , when the line malfunctions I get downstream SNRs to 5 to 7db but mainly the upstream SNR drops to zero .

On the subject of a new line , they would have to dig up one hundred yards of road and a large part of my garden / drive both just remodelled ?? !!! This would not be too popular and is it likely. Also I am on a BT phone contract tied in until August/Sept would this affect the new line and transfer of the Phone to it ?? Could I request a line then transfer the the bb to it try it out if better!!! could I then move my BT number and contract to it??

I did pay £150 all those years ago to get 512kbps bb installed.


I dont have a lot of spare cash to give to rich companies, with all my overtime cancelled until further notice , no pay rise last or this year and a request from my employers asking us to volunteer for less basic hours for less income, this is better than Renishaws another local high tech company that has just cut wages by 20% and laid of 400 staff despite making 20million profit from 200mill turnover in 2008!!!. At least my company still seems stable as aerospace orders are based on long lead times.



BT faults insist they will charge £160ish if an engineer turns out and finds no faults during a short ( up to two hour? visit).
This I have told them to place where the sun dont shine.

Hi Simon
Thanks for your behind the scenes help , I assume the rapid Profile changes over just a day or two are a result of some intervention as they happen over just a few days from up to down to up and down again, anyway long may it rain!! Shame its sunny this weekend but I can look forward to rain next week?

HAIRY

[JohnH]

When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!)

[davej99]

The line noise is very persistant but intermittant. When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!). Most of the time it is OK so whenever they do a line test it is passed OK ....

Hairy, it seems to me your problem is a simple voice fault and the best prospect is to pursue this yourself with BT. I would call BT every time you get line noise and log the call. Do not report an ADSL fault, but noise on the line which makes conversation hard. The trick is to get BT on the line when it happens so they can hear it for themselves.

To do that you need to be ready with a non-powered phone and call BT faults with no other connection to your master socket so they can confirm the noise. I do not believe that automatic line testing will necessarily catch the problem. This mean family members will have to do this when you are at work. You might want to call home check the line, hope for noise and then call BT. Keep a log by the phone.

You do not have to demand a visit and risk a charge, but simply insist they fix the noise you are hearing. I would make it clear you do not expect to pay anything at all if you want to feel reassured.  Do not mention broadband, because technically you do not have an ADSL fault. DC Voice and RF ADSL are separate products. It may take weeks to build your case by logging and phoning, logging and phoning until BT get to hear the noise and agree to fix it. Remember BT are wise to users who report voice faults to get better broadband, However you seem have a genuine case.

It looks like IDNET have done all they can, but they cannot address voice faults. That falls to the subscriber. However, I am sure you are tenacious enough to grind down BT and win the day.

Good luck

Dave

[hairyman]

Hi Dave

Thanks for yr useful advice. I will connect up the simple phone so it can be easily connected in by a simple real time switch over. The line noise occurred today and drowned out my Mum who was calling ( another plus point as she wanted me to cut her lawn). I happened to be watching the routers stats page at the time and the upstream SNR dropped a bit but the downstream SNR fell from 17db to below 7db , it didn't disconnect but must have been close.

I reported the noise to BT almost immediately but a line test showed it OK. I went on the BT website and formally via the complaints link lodged a dispute resolution request. Within a few hours an Indian call centre lady called asking about the problem, I said the problem had been ongoing for three plus years and while I was happy for her to test the line again I would prefer to speak to an engineer or a senior manager. She said she could transfer me to a UK engineer. A guy called Alex called back within 10 minutes ( this is on a Sunday afternoon) he went through a test which showed OK. I went through all the history of the voice line problems and asked to escalate this to a manager and to the dispute resolution procedure.

He put me on hold and came back saying he couldn't get involved in anything beyond line testing and asking me for permission to potentially be charged for a call out if the fault was not found or was beyond the socket. But he had ascertained the was a dispute resolution procedure and he would escalate it beyond his dept.I will report back if anything happens!!

I see this a joint voice line and bb problem as BT own both it being the same line carrying both signals, voice is a 300Hz to 3000Hz and bb a few tens of KHz up to 2Mhz in multiplexed chunks. Any fault on the line will kill either. BT silly IPprofiling system makes intermittant faults on the line have a multiday effect on the datarate. I pay for BT to carry both signals , the voice is directly paid by me and the bb indirectly via IDnet. BT provide 90% of the system for ISPs using Ipstream and charge IDnet for the copper and all the exchange hardware and the main highway and all the interconnects into their servers.


I have insisted they fix the line fault and I will accept no charge , they can test Free Of Charge outside my house on the grey terminal box , just six inches where leaves the ground as my mastersocket is only 30 inches from this. My router and PC are just above this box as the cable goes straight thro the cavity wall to my one and only socket in the house a modern split faceplate master . My router has about one metre on cable to the mastersocket them just a few inches throu the wall to the grey box outside.

I will call in the noise everytime it occurs and attempt the discipline of keeping a log then see how much time they are willing to spend on playing about. I will also write to then giving them a fixed time to start a repair after which I will escalate it to Ottelo? I could suggest a small claims court appearance to them as I CONSIDER THE SERVICE THEY PROVIDE TO BE BELOW A FAIR STANDARD.

ANY other suggestions anyone.

I see some backward looking civil servant has suggested that BT/ other providers should at some future date be asked to raise the minimum acceptable Internet speed from 28.8Kbps !!! to 2meg !!! I assume the UK will be rolling back to the StoneAge soon. If we spent a tiny fraction of what we have given failed fraudulent BANKERS to bail them out we could have a proper telecoms system in the UK.

Regards

HAIRY

[Sebby]

You're right about the poor infrastructure. With BT committing to upgrade a lot of their network to FTTC, things should get better over the next few years.

Whilst IDNet provide the broadband service, BT are 100% responsible for the line. I suspect that the voice fault is causing the trouble on the broadband side, and whilst I appreciate that it's been impossible thus fair, the voice fault needs to be resolved first, imho.

[davej99]

Well, Hairy, that was an interesting Sunday.

You have certainly heeded my advice and pursued a voice fault with BT. It is not surprising one was not found. Intermittent faults are cunning.

In dealing with BT, especially the front line engineers who handle your fault calls, I would always take a friendly line. You know you have a fault, the engineer probably believes you, but neither of you can deliver the proof that gets the tick in the box needed to have the line physically investigated. So my question to her/him would be, "what is the best way to show we have an intermittent fault and get remedial action." If you get a helpful response it (a) helps your diagnostics and (b) tacitly establishes you have a point. Then the next time you call and report another incidence you might say, "I have more information about the my intermittent problem." Remember, the person than answers the phone gets abused for a living and is unlikely to respond to pressure, but if you can develop a rapport you may get much needed inside track. If you escalate without some agreed evidence you will only get a brush off.

On the diagnostic side I suggest you log all details for use when calling BT. Here are a few points to think about and log.

(1) Does the noise only appear on incoming calls, or do you get it on outgoing too? The idea is that incoming perhaps stresses the line with ring AC, which I think adds to the DC.
(2) Have you been able to hear the noise by running the quiet line test (17070 option 2) at the master socket everything but the phone disconnected?
(3) Do you get problem after not using the phone for a while? The notion is that there has been no DC sealing current for a while and poor joints might go dry. I thought you mentioned you are not a heavy phone user. Of course then when you call BT the fault will have gone.
(4) Is there a local temp and weather correlation, which you have already alluded to.
(5) Any chance of recording the noise, with an answering machine perhaps?

For general interest in the Voice/BB distinction, what counts is how BT see it, not how we might view the science, or who we pay. BT seems to be partly organised to satisfy regulation and partly to satisfy business needs. My understanding is that Openreach is the last mile business, a bit like the gas distribution business. You get a leak Transco fix it otherwise you deal with your chosen gas supplier.

Openreach provides services to a range of voice and data carriers. You might choose voice from Sky, Broadband LLU from Carphone, both delivered by Openreach. You might get voice from TalkTalk and Broadband from an Entanet reseller like ADSL24, or from a BT Wholesale reseller like IDNET or BT Broadband. These are all connected by Openreach and there could from one to four BT businesses involved. Anyway you cut it the interactions are the same and regulation demands it is arms length. Some believe it can be internecine warefare and as a result customers have to be guided to the right place to get remedial action. IDNET, Sky, Carphone, BT Broadband or BT Wholesale are not going to fork out to fix dry joints. Openreach are not going to turn out for free to find a broadband problem or faulty user equipment. You get a voice line from Openreach and that is it. They are not funded to provide anything else. It's all stupid but that's the way it is.

Fortunately, Hairy, you are knocking on the right door. Good luck, Dave

[Rik]

One thing I would add, Dave, is to greet the engineer with an offer of a drink and, depending on the timing, biscuits to a bacon sarny - that kind of 'humanity' works wonders with people.

[davej99]

Absolutely. I will be round to your place directly.

[Rik]

Steak, pasties or what?

[Simon]

You mean, there are other choices?

[Rik]

Chicken, goose, lamb, pork, smoked salmon, egg & chips, pasta etc...

[bobleslie]

Far too much for you to manage by yourself, Rik! 

[Rik]

Give me time.

[hairyman]

Hi All

Its been a long time since my last post for a number of reasons.
Mainly I have been busy with a great holiday up in Sutherland on a fantastic beach campsite with great weather at a beach campsite with the wonderfull Assynt lochs and mountains around us. Plus I have been digging post holes and installing new fencing around my house a project nearly finished!!

Also I have found the net so frustrating at a snails pace that I rarely bother, still average ten disconnects a day and rising, we have just had a load of rain so the usual result is the connection will improve.

Just a reminder that I live only 400mtrs from the exchange and have only a mastersocket and one phone etc

BT speedtest below , Typical SNR downstream is 17db with 38db attn, both vary , I sometimes get voice line noise but the dropouts do not coincide with these.

BT say the line tests OK and flatly refuse to do anything more than remote tests without my written agreement to charges if they find no fault or faulty equipment at my end. Idnet say it is a line issue and can do no more. Catch 22 .

Hope you are all well and thanks for all the help.

Hairyman


Holiday snap attached ( one of 1186 taken while away at 3.6Gb total after jpegging !)
 

BT speed test below





Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   Your DSL connection rate: 6176 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
   IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 904 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Sebby]

Nice pic!

It's evident from the 1000k profile that there's still a lot of instability on your line. Unfortunately, without agreeing to be charged if no fault's found, you're never going to get anywhere. Clearly there's a fault.

[Dopamine]

BT say the line tests OK and flatly refuse to do anything more than remote tests without my written agreement to charges if they find no fault or faulty equipment at my end. Idnet say it is a line issue and can do no more. Catch 22 .

Check that all your internal wiring and equipment is up to scratch, then sign the agreement. Sounds fair enough to me.

From someone who has been in a similar situation, I can tell you that when BT have examined, more than once, your home and found nothing amiss, you'll be in a far better position to push for a resolution than if they haven't checked your home themselves.

If you think about it, and if it does transpire that they find a fault in your premises, the fee they charge you may well be money well spent if it solves your ongoing problems.

[rireed3]

Hi Hairyman.

I was in this spot a few months after I got Max in London.  It's not specific to countryside areas.  IDNet did everything they could to help, but I was just lucky that one of my long letters got to a problem group in Ben Verwaayen's office.

I discovered that voice faults are addressed by a completely different bureaucracy from broadband faults.  In fact, broadband is not a fault until it drops into 100s of K bps.  This may change, but not to greater than 2M.  Number of disconnects, I don't know, because I didn't have as many as you (three or four a night after a quiet week).

I also had audible noise concurrent with the broadband problem.  Because of the stupid bb fault policy, I decided to try to get a survey (as I later learned it was called) of my voice service.  I did not succeed.  After four or five _very_ difficult fault report calls where I tried to get the agent to hear the crackling, I had _not_ succeeded in even getting them to say they heard it!  I believe them.  It's quite possible that their equipment cleaned up the sound, because they reported 'lost syllables' when I was asking them about the noise.  On a few of these calls, the agent manually initiated line tests, which all came back OK.  In light of subsequent events, I wrote a follow up to the executive problem group that included:

• Voice fault report agents cannot hear crackling that will destroy broadband.  They might hear yours if you can get them to listen when it's bad.  I could converse over my noise.
• The voice fault line tests do not include all of the voice path 'tie pairs' (connections of your line to various equipment) that can dump noise into your line and wreck your broadband.

I only learned the term 'line survey' after my month-old problem finally disrupted voice and dial tone and was then fixed.  No one answered my repeated questions about intermittent fault investigation.  I decided to take a chance and get an engineer visit.  The day before the visit, my executive letter was answered.  Voice went out the day of the visit.  I'm still not sure whether this was luck or politics.  By the way, broadband still worked at about 2/3 speed with one wire connected, even though voice wouldn't!

After several attempts by the exchange to get the engineer to tell them it was my problem, they found and fixed the broken tie pair in the exchange.  For their part, the broadband fault department got Openreach to come out the next day and fixed a 'weathered' lead into the flat, just so they could report a different cause that _they_ rectified.  That second engineer gave me a little insight to his world when he said he had to report some kind of fix, or his boss would insist I be charged.  He also acted like a lawyer, not deciding whether to believe my story of the first engineer until he got back and checked the record.

If your problem is from a leaky cable, I don't know how you might get them to investigate it.  I just count myself lucky, as I can still not see a process for getting BT Wholesale/Openreach to investigate intermittents in their network.

LLU may not fix your problem, which makes me wonder if you could get cable broadband.

Richard

[Lance]

I think i would risk the call out charge. I. A large number of cases, as long as you make the engineer happy with tea and offers of bacon sarnies then he will most likely find something to fix even if it doesn't need fixing!

[Rik]

I agree with the advice, Chris, I know it's easy to spend your money, but if you don't take the chance you are never going to resolve this one.

[Simon]

As has been said, most BT engineers are human.