Slow Speeds since I got the 8meg Max service

hairyman · Aug 11, 2008, 21:48:47

Hi All
I need some advice as I am rather at the end of my tether with slow unresponsive ADSL. I was with Eclipse on 512k when we first were enabled here ( Stonehouse Glos ) it worked fine and gave actual downloads at this speed. Upgraded to 2meg when available synced at 2272kbps and downloaded at 1800plus.
Went over to 8meg Max synced at 6meg plus after training but got downloads at 500kbps downwards on speedtests. Persued this with Eclipse and BT both implied it was the other. Eclipse seemed to have got a bad name over the years so I transfered to Idnet result is occasionally I get speedtest results of 3meg and once 4.4meg but the usual is below 1meg the average seems to be 650kbps . This has gone on for 8months with IDnet and nearly two years with Eclipse.

I only have a phone master socket now with a ADSLnation faceplate filter. No slave sockets. Results with the mastersocket engineering socket is the same. Have changed everything more than once. Tried three wired router modems on ethernet and a USB modem , have four PCs with three diff OS to try , even changed leads and turned off almost everything electrical in the house to eliminate noise etc. Result no improvement. Actually my average speedtest result graph on Thinkbroadband is heading downwards!!

When I download two large files simultaneously from Thinkbroadband I get up to double the speed of one file on its own. Is this Traffic shaping at BT or Idnet or what.

Stats from router
Down SNR 13db attn 37db rate 5888kbps interleaved
Up SNR 25db Attn 25db rate 448kbps interleaved

The exchange currently show red on plusnet info site due to missing virtual paths within BT limits but below unit spec. This seems recent and my problem is longterm .

I am only 400mtrs from the exchange so would expect 8128 sync but the copper seems poor locally or maybe high crosstalk or non twisted pairs?

Currently pings at Idnet are high as is Lonap but normally they are good, again my problem is longterm>

Sometimes I get dozens of disconnects in a day and the sync rate drops down low mainly on the Upstream link . Again this seems down to a random condition , weather, BT , water in the underground ducts.

Any suggestion? Numerous ( dozens !!!) phonecalls has BT blaming Openreach ISPs ( Eclipse/IDnet blaming BT , and BT threatening a charge for a call out ( via the ISP).

Hope I have supplied enough info. If not I cansupply more. Antivirus , Spyware etc all up to date and different on the various Pcs anyway , only one PC is in use when I test! Current modem is a Zoom X5v .

Help.

Mobile Broadband looks increasingly attractive especially since I only need about 2Gb a month.

All I want is a to get back to 2meg broadband speeds and responsiveness.

Regards

Philip · Aug 11, 2008, 22:00:40

hairyman. One of the more technically minded members will, I'm sure, be along shortly to give you some advice

hairyman · Aug 11, 2008, 22:25:24

Thanks The Doctor . I have posted this problem elsewhere over the years but thought I try here as well when I discovered IDnet had a user forum. My exchange was only BT enabled until recently Orange came along and TT are due in September so I don't think BT will be interested in upgrades if that is the problem. I do like Idnet and their support seems Ok but I am only getting the same actual throughputs as I had on Eclipse . They charge more though!!
By the way after a very slow upload to a website prompted me to test the actual upload speeds these are around 130kbps!!
These speeds results in a feeling of "swimming through treacle" compared to the internet at work where several hundred PCs are on the system. Indeed trying the net at a friends house in Stroud ( 3mls away on a different exchange gave a similar fast response feel ( this one on Tiscali LLU).

Simon · Aug 12, 2008, 00:05:36

Hi Hairyman,

and have a welcome karma!

Sorry, but I'm not one of the technically minded who will be able to help you, but if not tonight, I can assure you that you will receive some more useful responses in the morning. In my limited experience, from what you have said, it does sound like an external (BT) issue somewhere along the line. One thing I can assure you of is that IDNet do not use traffic shaping or port throttling, in any way, shape, or form.

While awaiting a techie's response, could you post your router stats, and also run a BT Speedtest, and post the results? The BT speedtester can require some patience, but perseverance is usually rewarded sooner or later.

Rik · Aug 12, 2008, 08:33:01

Hi Hairyman

Welcome to the forum.

As Simon says, IDNet do not shape or throttle traffic, so we can rule that out. Your stats suggest that your line has a 15db target noise margin, so the sync speed is about right when that is factored in. For that to have happened, there must have been frequent disconnections, are you aware of these? A BT speed test would be good, as it will show if it's a problem with the profile. Can you get the error stats from your router? If so, that would also give us some clues as to what might be happening.

ATM, my best guess would be exchange congestion or a high error count, coupled with poor stability.

If you have a battery-powered AM radio, try de-tuning it so that you just have white noise, then follow the path of the phone cable from where it enters the house up to the router. If you hear an increase in volume, you are picking up the source of any internal interference.

hairyman · Aug 12, 2008, 23:21:54

Hi Rik and Simon

I can rarely get any result from the BT speedtester it usually fails to authenticate or times out. it seems to be near permanently broken!

Over the last 2days 12hrs of up time the router reports as follows
Upstream SNRmargin 15db Line attn 38db Errored seconds 536secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 1 CRC errors 9 Data rate 5792kbps interleaved.

Downstream SNR margin 25db Line attn 25db Errored secs 1021secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 0 CRC errors 3 Data rate 448kbps interleaved.

I get high line noise on the voice line this seems related to the broadband starting to struggle you can see the upstream SNR lower and the downstream margin fluctuate. I have tried several filters and routers and modems and changed all the leads. Changing these makes no difference. Testing with a MW AM radio around the phone line shows only ADSL noises. I have scanned the radio spectrum locally and see little noise or local transmissions of any real strength that could cause problems.

There is only at max one metre of cable from the place where the BT line emerges from the ground to the mastersocket. The PC and router have less than a metre extra each. I was told the noise is typical of high resistance or a diode effect on poor joints ( I think a lot of the BT cable could be aluminium copper used in the early 80s when this estate was put up in open fields) maybe this gives the 38db attn for the less than 1km of cable to the exchange?

I still get slow throughputs even when there is no line noise or errors. The Stonehouse exchange still shows red on the plusnet info page. Therefore I think the trouble is contention at the exchange ( hopefully the recent addition of Orange and the forthcoming Talk Talk activation on the exchange will free up the BT gear , I think one of the Tiscali group has business only gear at the exchange as well).

Do BT traffic shape somewhere as the double simultaneous down load test does give a large increase in the overall download rate? As I do understand IDnet dont ( although ping rates are currently over 100ms on idnet and lonap circuits )

My rates tonight on Thinkbroadband and speedtest.net show below 600kbps down and between 120 and 350kbps upstream.

Hope the figures help.

Simon · Aug 13, 2008, 00:27:29

Hi Hairyman,

I don't think BT can traffic shape, as such, but if there is high contention at the exchange, this could have the same effect, if I understand it correctly. Sorry I can't be of more help, Rik is usually online in the mornings, if you're able to check in tomorrow.

Ted · Aug 13, 2008, 09:12:20

Quote from: hairyman on Aug 12, 2008, 23:21:54
I get high line noise on the voice line this seems related to the broadband starting to struggle you can see the upstream SNR lower and the downstream margin fluctuate. I have tried several filters and routers and modems and changed all the leads. Changing these makes no difference. Testing with a MW AM radio around the phone line shows only ADSL noises. I have scanned the radio spectrum locally and see little noise or local transmissions of any real strength that could cause problems.

If you have a very noisy voice line, that is likely to be your problem. You should call BT directly and tell them the problem, don't mention ADSL.
Its their job to sort out faults like this.

Rik · Aug 13, 2008, 09:31:04

What Ted said, Hairyman. Call it in as a voice fault initially.

hairyman · Aug 13, 2008, 18:58:09

Hi

I have called it in as as voice line call many times . BT do a remote test and say there is no problem . They say its a bb problem and down to me or my ISP.

The reverse happens when I go via my ISP who say the bb seems as good as the line will stand and a callout may cost £140 plus.

Think I will have to contact OFCOM. I asked IDnet to initiate as complaint / dispute via their trade body but no reply was forthcoming!!

The bb rate is slow even when there is no line noise and I sync at 6meg and the number of errors is low.

hairyman · Aug 13, 2008, 20:24:35

Hi

I have just reported the "fault" to BT they were very offhand and didnt even do a line test and said it was probably a bb fault. They could go no further without a callout charge.

From the internet side when I have taken it up with Eclipse and now IDnet they say a charge may be needed . Having paid over £100 ( £130 I think) to first have the bb enabled/connected all those years ago I am reluctant to go this way.

A change to mobile bb would seem the way to make the voice line usable and get some reliable bb? Seems funny in this High Tech world that BT and two isps cannot supply a reliable connection.

Could I regrade to 2meg or lower and clear the line noise problem and get a quiet voice line?

What I dont understand is even with no line noise and no disconnects the speeds are still rubbish?

hairyman · Aug 15, 2008, 18:21:37

Hi

I have asked BT via the BT website to investigate the noisy and low volume voice line. They said there was no fault shown on a remote test. Any further problem could result in a 140quid callout fee.

Idnet are running a test and have a monitor on the system as I can see on a traceroute another link shown over normal with my ident on it.

I have tried two different routers so they can see if that makes any difference.

Speeds remain around 600kbps down and 150kbps up. Syncs at 5.5meg at the moment. I guess my profile and or contention is causing the slow actual speeds ?

Talking with a colleague about this three year saga he suggested requesting a cost and survey for a second BT line into the house to see if a better circuit could be found. If it was I could then cancel the old one. This would be cheaper than paying a ridiculous callout fee on this line. Would this work?

I will see what the tests show but I have had these run 6 or 7 times before with no improvement.

Thanks to all. Any comments on the above welcomed.

Rik · Aug 15, 2008, 18:28:33

There's no guarantee that a new line would be better, though you could specify that it was for ADSL and BT would, I believe, refund the cost if it wasn't up to the job. However... BT's definition of ADSL performance is way below your expectations, so you might find yourself no better off, and having paid for a new line and connection (you can't migrate between physical lines).

Without stats, we can only guess at the throttle point. A BT speed test will reveal your profile, which ought to be 4500k for that sync speed. Allowing for overheads, I'd expect a maximum throughput of around 4000k. If you're getting below that, and particularly if it's variable, I'd suspect exchange congestion. If that is the issue, of course, another line might fare no better.

hairyman · Aug 15, 2008, 21:21:29

Hi Rik
My usual throughput is around 600kbps , I would be over the moon to get 4000 , I was happy with the old 2meg service but that was discontinued and the Max made more problems. I have only seen 4meg once in nearly 3years.

I think the irregular disconnects are dropping my profile which seems to stick there until someone resets them, the line throughputs seem to improve after a "complaining session" and someone resets the profile manually.

The line noise seems to go when the router is turned off. The trouble is this noise is irregular but persistant so when you look to do a test all is OK. The rest of the time the profile must be set low and is reset after a I call about it.

Andrew at IDnet emailed tonight to say they have put it back to BT for checking. They hope for a reply B4 monday pm.

I cannot acces the BT speedtester site it always fails to authenticate or times out.

Hopefully they can get my speed back to maybe 2004 levels ie 2meg service which syncd at 2272 and downloaded at 1800 to 1900 all the time. Getting 4 meg would be even better. The exchange shows a red on the plusnet checker. I hope the recent addition of Orange and the September launch of TT LLUs at my exchange will reduce the exchanges load on the quaint old BT steam based system!! Note I live only 400mtrs from the exchange with probably no more than 800mtrs of underground cable. So while I live in a small town on the side of the Cotswolds we are not remote ( no cable or similar though).

Is my 38db downstream line attn high for the above likely line length? Could I be on a dodgy twisted pair or indeed not a twisted pair at all?

Ted · Aug 15, 2008, 22:13:16

Quote from: hairyman on Aug 15, 2008, 21:21:29
Is my 38db downstream line attn high for the above likely line length? Could I be on a dodgy twisted pair or indeed not a twisted pair at all?

my attenuation is 27db for a line length of approximately 1.3km, sync is 7616 (interleaved) and regularly download at 6mb+ so i would say from my setup that your attenuation is high for your line length.
A dodgy twisted pair would seem the most likely culprit, in my opinion.

Rik · Aug 16, 2008, 09:00:08

What Ted said, but if you post your stats we'll have a better idea.

hairyman · Aug 16, 2008, 23:05:21

Stats from router
Down SNR 13db attn 37db rate 5888kbps interleaved
Up SNR 25db Attn 25db rate 448kbps interleaved

These are typical router stats above .

Recently we got these below

Upstream SNRmargin 15db Line attn 38db Errored seconds 536secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 1 CRC errors 9 Data rate 5792kbps interleaved.

Downstream SNR margin 25db Line attn 25db Errored secs 1021secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 0 CRC errors 3 Data rate 448kbps interleaved

Rik · Aug 17, 2008, 09:28:16

The 48 loss of signal errors suggest there's a major issue with the line - unless the router has been up for several years.

Ted · Aug 17, 2008, 09:53:56

Have you at any time tried a different router, that is known to be good?

Ah! just reread your OP again, scrub that idea.

hairyman · Aug 17, 2008, 10:40:55

Hi

Yes as you have seen from previous posts I have used BT type USB modem, Speedtouch single port routers( two were used first one failed after a few months, second one made annoying audible switched mode PSU squarks) , went over to a Zoom X5v and got a Creative DSL blaster router as a spare. All gave similar symptoms. I have been on BB since enabling here ( 2003 ) and on the net with data exchange in some form for 25 years ( started with packet radio transmissions as a radio ham, I dont do the radio hobby now except as a listener.

The disconnects were over a weekend as far as I remember. I have seen as many in one 24hr period. These then go away for day/weeks . They are irregular but persistant. I guess they drop my profile in some way without changing the headline sync rate.

I use A ADSLnation replacement filtered faceplate now but have tried many other filters, even tried the dooble filter in both voice and data cable trick to no avail.

BT refuse to do admit there is a line problem and the bb guys ( same company in reality !!) say the same.
The voice line gets very noisy during these bb disconnect periods, The line problem seems worse when there is a dry spell of a few days, rain seems to "damp" down the bad joints ?

Idnet were doing tests on the line but seemed to have stopped running a trace on the line overnight. I could see this as another route on the Traceroute widget on the Thinkbroadband site. Whether this means they have completed tests and put it back to BT or done some tweaks and gone away I will find out next week.

The current sync is still 6meg with real downloads and speedtests showing a small improvement to about 1meg from the previous 500-600kbps.

Rik · Aug 17, 2008, 10:46:47

The high number of disconnects has increased your target noise margin to the max, and I'd bet your profile is also quite low. Unless the line can be stabilised, I can't see your speeds picking up.

hairyman · Aug 17, 2008, 11:05:21

Catch 22 again as BT pass me over to their BB side and vice versa .

Thanks to the guys ( and gals ) at IDnet they are a ray on sunshine on the cloudy BB here. I guess they are hamstrung as nearly all the gear in my loop is BTs.

Cant they ( BT / Idnet) set the system to reset my profile say every day/week to overcome their faulty cables. After a full BB reset some months ago ( Idnet migrated me back to 2meg to clear my profile for a few days then back to Max) I then got 8meg syncs at SNRs around 9db , then I guess a batch of disconnects dropped me to 6meg syncs and put on interleaving, and dropped my profile even lower.

The local exchange seems heavily contended and is shown as red on plusnet. This may be causing the highly varying rates even when there are no disconnects.

As a point, I find when downloading test files I get say 100kbytes/sec on one at a time, I try another simultaneous download and I get get 90 Kbytes/sec on this and the first one hardly slows down at all at worse it drops to the same as the second one? Is this contention at the exchange or BT traffic shaping ( I used to use Eclipse as my ISP and they became similar to this but at much lower overall rates.)

Rik · Aug 17, 2008, 11:21:39

Essentially, as long as BT own the local loop, problems like yours are next to impossible for an ISP to resolve. There's no mechanism to allow daily resetting of the profile, indeed BT would resist requests to do it. In that respect, you'd be better with an LLU provider who doesn't use profiles.

BT shouldn't traffic shape, but effectively exchange congestion does just that.

hairyman · Aug 17, 2008, 11:41:52

Yes I guess I have the LLU option now, it was BT only at my exchange until Orange was enabled a few months ago, TTalk are meant to be added on in September. Neither really attracts plus I am tied into a BT phone deal until next year.
I guess I will have to carry on as before. Can 2meg still be offered because as I understand it this is not profiled? What with the general shortage of funds these day/credit squeeze I should go for the cheapest BB deal on the BT network as my local loop is not showing the good fast system that IDnet offers to me.

Still getting below one meg ! No disconnects though!

Pal at work suggested two options
1 order a new BT line for BB

2 Apply 5Kv Flash tester Megger to incoming cables.!!

A joke ?!

Rik · Aug 17, 2008, 11:51:50

Fixed rate is still available and you should get 2Mbps. However, it won't solve the disconnection problem.

A new line may, or may not, solve the problem - it depends where the problem lays and whether that would still form part of your circuit. The Megger would probably not be a good idea, given the potential to take out other peoples' lines and equipment.