Slow Speeds since I got the 8meg Max service

[Inactive]

Not the kind of reply that a customer would have received from his predecessor ..

[Rik]

I had noticed the change in style, can't say I'm too surprised though, In.

[Sebby]

Not the kind of reply that a customer would have received from his predecessor ..

You're right there, In. Very disappointing. He obviously doesn't realise that when you go through your ISP, who try and get BT to do something, they take no notice.

[hairyman]

Hi

Just sent Mister Livingston an email , I composed it so he cannot send me a reply like Ann got (well I suppose he could if he didn't read my email at all?).

Lets see what his PAs office sends me in another standard reply. I will post both my email and his reply , if and when when he replies.

   

[Sebby]

Good luck.

[hairyman]

Reply rec within 20 minutes of my mail.

I feel like I have been told off for "telling tales"!!
Second half is as per Ann's reply.First half may be half true as I agree that I pay IDnet to do a job for me and provide a service but BT supply all their in and outs as I understand it.

I must get back to IDnet again or MAC away and try elsewhere for less cash! I do like ID so lets persevere.
will ask for a deadlock letter to see if that prompts further contact of BT Wholesale by IDnet.

21CN is programmed for 2011/12 around here. I don't think I can wait another three years.

It seems BT want me as a customer of thirty plus years standing to go elsewhere. I can see why their share price was £1.25 yesterday and over £10.00 about 8 years ago. Think we got ours at about a quid each.

Hope you are all well. Thanks for being there.

Hairyperson



"IANS" REPLY


I am sorry about your concerns but your ISP are wrong to say they have
reached a dead end.  They have industry standard escalation routes that
can establish whether the issue is the network and if so, a response
from their wholesaler, BT Wholesale. This is what you pay them to do -
they are your service provider and service providers do not like BT
interfering in the relationship between them and their customers.  I
would go back to them and ask them to use their escalation routes as you
have done with me. This is exactly what BT Retail should do for their
customers.

Ian


Above reply rec 20:46hrs my mail sent 20:26 hard working man!

Sent: 05 November 2008 20:26
To: Livingston,I,Ian,CGEC R
Subject: Slow internet

Dear Mr Livingston


I have suffered with slow internet for nearly three years, both the ISPs
that I have used in this time have traced the problem to your
infrastructure at my exchange in xxxxx sssss . They have
been told this by your wholesale division. The typical rates I get are
650kbps on actual throughputs whereas I sync with the exchange which is
only 400 yards away, at nearly 8000kbps . My ISP IDnet was told by BT
Wholesale the exchange was very heavily congested and would be upgraded
within ten days, this was nearly three week ago now. There has been no
improvement.

My current and previous ISPs both have done their best but have drawn a
blank against your monolithic group. My ISPs have even suggested the only
way to improve matters would be to move away from  your network and away
hence from them as well. 

This has gone on for a very long time with two providers using your
IPstream product. I have reached a point where my internet speeds are
little better than the 512kbps I first got in 2003  when broadband at my
exchange was first enabled. It is not possible to use the connection for
anything other than simple web browsing due to its erratic congested
nature even this halts many times an hour . I therefore cannot use video
streaming, VOIP, or sites like U Tube.  My equipment has all been
checked and or changed to eliminate any problems here. I get a good
solid sync with the exchange.

Could I therefore ask you to pass this on to someone able to confirm
what is wrong with your system and what action might be possible. My ISP
has reached a dead end ( their words) and I consider them one of the
best available. Others on BT IPstream seem to routinely get much faster
speeds on nearby exchanges.

Yours AKA HAIRY


PS I do use BT for phonecalls and have done so for over thirty years I am also
a modest BT shareholder  ( isn't your share  price poor right now, a good time to buy?).

[Sebby]

I really don't like this guy. He's failing to appreciate that whilst there are procedures in place, BT are so useless that ISPs are unable to actually get anything sorted.

[Rik]

Typical bureaucrat, I'm afraid. Ben would have kicked someone to take a look.

[Ann]

I suspect his feeling is why should he put himself out to assist a rival ISP.  BT has never had a good relationship with other companies.  I remember back in the days when the first companies were trying to start up calls and access phone services, BT did all it could to sabotage their efforts by taking weeks and weeks to transfer customers.

For me, I'll give it a while until I lose patience and then go off and find a cheaper ISP.  No point in my paying 25 quid a month when I can get an equally cr*p connection for less than half the price.

[Rik]

Thing is, Ann, he's also dealing with a customer in IDNet. The real problem is the almost monopolistic position of BT Wholesale.

[Ann]

Well after a bit of nagging, I've now had a response from the Manaaging Director of BT Wholesale but everyone seems to be saying that IDNet are not doing all they could.  They talk of escalating whatever that actually means in practise, but they say they are going to ensure I will get information via the correct route, meaning I suspect that it's up to IDNet to keep me informed. 

And now I'm wondering if IDNet know more than they are telling me.  I mean if they really know that nothing will happen for 6 months or so, then they know I will walk, so are they just stringing me along month to month?  I'm not impressed.  They've reminded me that it takes time and planning to update the exchange which kind of implies that they must have planned it all out and know exactly when it's going to happen so why will nobody tell me?

[hairyman]

Maybe Bt need breaking up properly as opposed to the somewhat masonic arrangement of the Openreach / BT line split up where BT becomes a customer of Opereach or is it vice versa .

The trouble is if you go to far you get a situation like the power and gas companies where they A) fix prices and B) don't invest in new plant and C) send their profits back to France/US/German owners.

Or like the Post Office/Royal Mail situation where branches are closing down and the profitable mail is being handed over to private customers and the universal price for mail delivery seems set to either dissappear or go up to over £1 at todays rates.

I cant see BT or indeed anyone else supplying modern bb links to small villages etc unless subsidised like in Scotland and I think Wales.

Ann -- like you why pay for a top ISP like IDnet when the system is traffic managed by BTs congestion especially when for £12 I can get a fair service elsewhere, and BT still get their cash , so they are not worried.

Ann again-- Just seen your last post and I agree that I feel the truth is congested just like my internet. Honesty in business seems to have gone these days as personally I can accept an "I dont know, or I will find out or I dont suppose they will tell us that" type of answer  but not a sales pitch to keep one hanging on.

[Simon_idnet]

Dear Anne and hairyman

We have escalated both of your cases as far up as we are able to. This is where we are left that there is no fault with your lines nor your equipment. BT have conceded that your Exchanges are congested. They have provided their timescales for Exchange upgrades. When these dates are missed they simply provide new dates. When we push for further information we are told that the information is "commercially sensitive". We do not embellish the information that we receive, we pass it on to you verbatim. We do not believe in making up stories in the hope that we might say whatever you might be wanting to hear. We tell it as it is and I am sorry that this is not making your life any easier.

regards
Simon

[Rik]

Thanks for that, Simon.

[Ann]

Thanks.  I know I need some patience.. I'll see if I can find some from somewhere.

[Lance]

Simon,

Any chance of you emailing Ian directly mentioning the two recent cases and giving your imput that you can't escalate any further?

[hairyman]

Hi Lance Ann and Simon

Simon-- Thanks for the telephone chat today sorry to hear that IDnet can do no more for us.

I spoke to Otelo today they cannot help with "commercially sensitive matters" like exchange upgrades.

Also spoke to A nice South African chap at Ofcom likewise they cannot help , he suggested I write to my MP , I know the guy and he is helpful also as he lives here in my small town only the other side of the High Street and uses the same exchange he may be able to pull a few levers?  Ofcom did register the call as a complaint which will be checked against other data on my exchange. They are hoping for a new white paper soon which will break up the monopoly of cities getting the best service and rolling out new fibre in the countryside first rather than simply duplicating Virgins fibre and systems in the easy pickings of large cities. Ofcom also said going LLu would help as they could see my exchange had Orange and TT. They agreed with me that for low downloaders like me having no landline and going fully mobile is also  becoming increasingly common and viable. He also said stats for exchange congestion complaints are available at cost under freedom of information legislation.

Interesting if there are four of more providers on an exchange Ofcom etc fully wash their hand of the job as "competition" is deemed to be the regulator then.

As I am tied into a BT phone deal, which both of the above said i would be unlikely to be released from, as all divisions of BT are commercially separate and not responsible for each others service ( it would make no difference even if I was a BT Broadband customer). Basically we are stitched up in a commercial monopoly. 

I would personally recommend anyone getting poor speeds from BT ipstream not to bother changing ISPs ( a waste of time as there are not any really bad ones, what you do get with better ISPs are nicer people on the support lines and they will be UK based. I will transfer to an LLu as soon as I can.

Simon --- like Lance could you try again with BT for Ann and me . I will email Ian Liverthingy at BT to say you have stated that you have reached a dead end and ask him what these further steps are that he mentioned to me?. At least I will see what his little helpers on the email come up with.

Its a Friday so welcome to the weekend.

I might even save money and drop the internet completely it might even be fun without it? Having had bb for over five years and dialup for 7 yrs before that and packet data transmission vis amateur radio since Sinclair ZX days maybe life would change without bb?? Thought for the day maybe?? It might even give me time to do some more Scottish Munros or polish of Mt Blanc next year.

[Rik]

Basically we are stitched up in a commercial monopoly. 

That's the sad truth of it, Hairy, and in a bit of it which has virtually no regulation.

[Ann]

Well Stephen, the General Manager of BT Wholesale who phoned me said that Ian Liverthingy gets frustrated when people just blame BT.  I think he was sort of apologising for his irritated email response.

Right, so what am I bid for Stephen's mobile phone number then?

[Simon]

Well Stephen, the General Manager of BT Wholesale who phoned me said that Ian Liverthingy gets frustrated when people just blame BT. 

We know the feeling! 

[Ann]

LOL yeah but I looked up my mate Ian Liverthingy http://people.forbes.com/profile/ian-livingston/13963 ..... £554,000 salary and £404,000 bonus.. he must be gutted to spend two minutes telling me to piss off.. I feel for him..

That was his last job.. this year he got 3.35 million  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/2790643/BT's-new-boss-Ian-Livingston-could-earn-andpound6.8m-in-first-year.html

ROFL!

[Rik]

If you get paid the big bucks, you're there to listen, imo.

[hairyman]

Hi All

Had a few emails and phone calls so will put them in order below. A few bits I have ** out to hide identities.

Ian

Many thanks for your concern and advice to escalate matters further. I do
realise I pay my ISP to do this service but all they get from your
organisation is that these matters are commercially sensitive and cannot be
discussed and no  accurate or indeed any dates for solving the problem can
given.

Could you or your department let me know what these steps are that an ISP
can do are. Today my ISP have again stated again they can take it no further
as they have no control over your infrastructure viz my exchange and no
escalation steps are available. No dates can be given for an upgrade and
21CN is at least four years away as far as I can  see for us  here, even
this enablement  has drifted back recently.

I will ask ** *** my  MP who lives in this town and uses the same exchange
as me to ask a few questions as there appears to be no regulatory body
available on this type of problem as both Otelo and Ofcom seem unable to
help.

Regards **** ( hairyperson)


Reply from Ian L

Could you let me know who it was escalated to in BT who gave the answer
that it was commercially sensitive.  I will then investigate.


Ian


Comment -- seems he was more concerned in internal ( BT )  discipline than my problem??

My reply--

Ian


Many thanks for yr prompt reply . I have forwarded your request for info on
my ISP. I am not sure if they can reply over the weekend.

I can assure you the "commercially sensitive" reply was used to my  ISP and
reported to me. This  would seem to be in  common practice by your Wholesale
engineering desks. This was subsequently  confirmed to me by two lengthy
conversations I had today with both Otelo and Ofcom,  their help desks said
BT using "commercially sensitive reasons"  for not giving info as to
exchange updates and repairs is in widespread use in feedback to them.

My previous ISP Eclipse Internet also reported to me that BT were using
commercially sensitive type stalls back in 2006/7 when my net speeds
bottomed out then.

You say you can "then investigate" by that I hope you mean into your
congestion problem at the ****  **** exchange. Surely your internal
tracking system would show what tests have been done when and by whom?

I am not sure if my ISP will reply direct to you or otherwise. Either way I
will email again.

Many thanks for your time.
Hairy Person

MY Email to Idnet to keep them informed and to pass on the baton?
**** at IDnet

I emailed Ian Livingston of BT as below and got this reply at 16:11 hrs today Friday 7 Nov, not sure if we/I have made any progress or are about to fall into some sort of trap.
He asks for info as below I don't want to "drop your BT contact in the deep do do" or likewise do so myself. Ian L says "I will then investigate" this may be to  look into my problem or maybe something more sinister ref his lower echelons?

To be fair in both my conversations with Otelo and Ofcom today both said BT saying exchange work being commercially sensitive was a stock reply they heard many times from users and providers so it seems likely BT wholesale use it in their "training song book".

Don't know if you can help with reply to Mr L either directly or via me ( as I initiated the Mr L  mails, I assume his office staff answer these or am I speaking to a nom de plume?


Thanks for all your help. Meanwhile I will send him a holding type email.

Hairyman

Emails to and from BTs Ian L were copied to Idnet. These are as per previous posts on this forum thread ."Holding email" email mentioned  is my second outgoing one on this post.

On Sat morning at approx I got a tele call from Stephen Hunt of BT ( Gen Manager of Wholesale ) . He said the slow connection issue would be escalated to his team in Manchester. Mostly he was concerned about who at BT was mentioning "commercially sensitive" to me as that was very wrong, I said both my current and previous ISP ( Eclipse Internet) told me that this was the reply from BT and that both Otelo and Ofcom had said BT used this routinely in reports to them during my telecons with them today. Otelo said it cannot act on any commercial sensitive matter only poor service ( not speed ) or bills etc.

I also said I was mainly concerned with the speed issue rather than internal training or regulatory matters.

Still I left Mr Hunt who was calling from home to rescue his children ( small sounding ) from climbing into the loft. He said the Escalation Team would report back , I suggested it should go back  via Idnet. Stephen Hunt sent me his contact details via email.

Question???  are these Escalations cost chargeable to someone not me I know as I have not been asked to authorise anything. If ISPs have to pay if they prove unsuccessful maybe that is why they don't often happen or are not requested??

Today ( Monday 10 Nov) the BT Escalation team sent a fairly unhelpful email to Idnet who posted it onto me. Below--


I have completed my investigations into this High Level Escalation and regret to inform you that there is currently no spare capacity to increase the bandwidth on this VP above that which was recently completed on 22nd October. At this present time I am unable to advise you when we may be in a position to increase it though as and when spare bandwidth becomes available it will be progressed as necessary. Could you please advise your customer Mr ****,

Kind Regards

Les ******
High Level Escalations Team Member
BT Broadband Assurance | BT Wholesale


Hope some of this makes sense and is in some sort of order.

Humbly slightly confused disappointed but not surprised.

yours
the Hairyone


PS Don't see any improvement in the rate as of 22 Oct that the Escalation team mentioned. I will test and report back. I suspect they have just replaced faulty gear at the exchange as "missing VPs " were mentioned by exchange info sites a few months ago. Probably they have now got the original spec of the exchange back to normal standard rather than the "within spec" but below ideal mentioned before.

[hairyman]

Ref the salaries mentioned by Anns post from news on the net.
I find it hard to understand how anyone in a employed position is worth around a 100 times the national average wage. I can fully understand someone who is risking their own capital by running their own business ( majority shareholder basis) is worth this much and more but not any employee. Anyone paid  that much should be good enough to run their own business.

Still I am not jealous or envious, at least I dont have to make business calls on a Sat morning ( anymore ) or have to email one or two of 5 million irate customers between counting my share issue.

Hairyman

[Rik]

I have completed my investigations into this High Level Escalation and regret to inform you that there is currently no spare capacity to increase the bandwidth on this VP above that which was recently completed on 22nd October. At this present time I am unable to advise you when we may be in a position to increase it though as and when spare bandwidth becomes available it will be progressed as necessary.

Exactly what IDNet got told in the first place, Hairy. No help to man nor beast. 

Thanks for keeping us in the loop.