Slow Speeds since I got the 8meg Max service

[hairyman]

I don't think "real" Openvomit engineers exist around here, my neighbours voice line went down , she has one of these " pensioners panic buttons" attached to the system so "really" needs the phone. Fair enough they repaired the broken cable between the point where it leaves the ground and enters the ground and enters the property a distance of 3 feet. The guy left the cable all in mid air without clipping it to the wall and without fixing the armoured outer to the grey boxs clamps/gland thingy ie she is left with a fat armoured cable all in mid air right by her front door with just the two tiny twisted pair ( 22gauge ?) wires holding all the weight. Job done off we go !!!

All the properties have two pairs to each house ( ie a spare provided) as far as I remember about 15yrs ago the line went down and I lost the line for two weeks ish. They fixed it by rewiring the connection between me and the the box over the road using the best two out of four available. I suspect not a twisted pair. They would have to dig up 15 yards of drive and a hundred yds of road to replace it I guess. The old Victorian part of town is all overhead but our  newer part of town bit is all underground.

IDnet don't seem interested as  it is a voice  line problem to them.

As to a second line all BT are required to provide on a phone line is one capable of carrying 28kbps of data and reasonable quality of voice or so I understand.

AAISP at least say they will sort line noise and optimise the line for data.

I asked O2 why they they had activated all the surrounding exchanges with their gear and not done our similar sized one. I actually got a reply it was slightly cryptic but implied they were not sure the lines were optimised to meet their headline speed limits. ( Ally cables?)

I have asked my neighbours what they get but mostly they just know it works. One gets 8meg plus with TT and the other gets a solid 2meg with Tiscali on a 2meg service. Others get 4meg plus with BT as a ISP.  We do have a very large private school in town which I suspect drags out a lot of bandwidth. 21CN is not planned until 2012 . The other neighbours are to old to be interested in the net. There are a few families with younger kids so I will ask what they get. At one point I could get better actual rates by using my neighbours WIFI ( with permission) and got about 4meg I think over a fifty yard distance. He synced at 8meg.

Thanks all.

HAIRYMAN

[hairyman]

Plus net currently reports my exchanges VPs at RED , so I guess that shows the slow rates I get even with a good profile.

HAIRYMAN

[Sebby]

It's a difficult one. With such a poor infrastructure, it's sometimes tough to work out where the problem lies.

[Rik]

I doubt it's a case of IDNet not being interested, but rather that they have taken it as far as they can with BT and can't get them to budge. If AAISP say they will sort the noise, why not give them a try. Providing you're not tied in to a long contract, if they don't deliver, you're no worse off.

[hairyman]

Yes Rik I do agree that IDnet have no control over BT only some input. I think the problem is this odd IPprofile system BT uses I assume it is used by them to save system bandwidth that would occur without it , there would be more requests for data resending otherwise when checksums asks for packets of data to be resent? THE Profiling system slows the peak rate down until resent packets drop to a low level?

Strange how the LLU boys manage without, why does it take days up to weeks to set the IPprofile? I would have thought with modern traffic shaping and management it could be done in almost real time or at least hour by hour or day by day.

I see in the papers today they are talking about spending £39 billion on some new Train main lines for rich folk to travel on. Probably half this sum would fund a proper data highway for those of us who don't live in big cities already provided with cable and who live well away from a useful train service ( after all they closed most of the train lines when I was a lad to save £50 pounds a year!!! Remember Dr Beaching. )

I will persist with IDnet and BT and see what they can do although AAISP do promise to sort line problems and their description of the method seems to hold water. Plus their data cap is much better than Idnet for about the same cash.

The long dry spell that makes my line noise occur more often looks likely to end this week so the problem may submerge again for a while.

Regards

HAIRYMAN

[Sebby]

I don't know what the point of the profile system is, and I can't even really see a benefit for BT. As you say, LLU operators don't use it, which I believe is because it serves no real purpose. As Rik mentioned earlier, you've got nothing to lose if you want to try AAISP (is that who used to be called Andrews & Arnold, incidentally)?

[Rik]

AAISP do promise to sort line problems and their description of the method seems to hold water. Plus their data cap is much better than Idnet for about the same cash.

What do they say they will do, Hairy? I know your line reports are good, including the copper, and that you've had a significant number of frequent re-syncs, which is what's damaging your profile (some have been as low as 1728, hence a 1500 profile). At this point, my advice would be to connect to the test socket, if you have one, preferably using a new router and RJ11 cable, and see if things stabilise.

[hairyman]

What do they say they will do, Hairy? I know your line reports are good, including the copper, and that you've had a significant number of frequent re-syncs, which is what's damaging your profile (some have been as low as 1728, hence a 1500 profile). At this point, my advice would be to connect to the test socket, if you have one, preferably using a new router and RJ11 cable, and see if things stabilise.

Hi Rik
I can try the mastersockets test point and an alternative router. Currently the mastersocket has a ADSL 2005? filtered faceplate on it , IDnet sent an I plate which is not of much use as I have no extension wiring hence no ring wire, plus it wont work with the Filtered faceplate and I think I binned the old split face BT plate. Essentially I am now plugged into the test socket with the ADSL faceplate doing the filtering. I can use a filter plugged into the test socket with the simple phone and alt router.

The Mastersocket is 0ne foot from the PC and the router is by the PC all leads are just a few feet long and new, the phone is on its standard length lead next to the system. Normally we use a DECT cordless phone but a simple phone is always ready in case of one of out power cuts. I can detect no local noise in my household and have even turned off all the houses power and let the PC run on the UPS and still had drop outs!!! .

The mastersocket is at floor level under the PC corner, and the cable goes straight thro the cavity wall immediately into the outside grey BT terminal box and the armoured cable drop into the ground about 6 inches below the grey box. Hence I suspect there is no more than 2mtrs of telephone cable above ground to the router. The routers second used port is networked over the spare room I can/have  removed this cable at the router which is next to the mastersocket for tests.

Would a different make of router help? My current router is a Zoom X5V ( four ethernet ports plus USB with VOIP phone port which is disabled) and the spare is a Creative Broadband Blaster ( with one ethernet plus one USB ) , I think they both use Alcatel chipset/firmware. Would one of these BT 2700 be a useful exercise. One with full real time logging of disconnects times and sync and line data would be fun and useful.

HAIRYMAN

[Sebby]

If you have a filtered faceplate, an iPlate is of no use whatsoever (and physically can't be fitted). Given your setup, it sounds like a line issue external to your property.

[hairyman]

I don't know what the point of the profile system is, and I can't even really see a benefit for BT. As you say, LLU operators don't use it, which I believe is because it serves no real purpose. As Rik mentioned earlier, you've got nothing to lose if you want to try AAISP (is that who used to be called Andrews & Arnold, incidentally)?

Likewise I cannot see any engineering reason for the Profiling method BT use , the commercial one would be to reduce the repeated packets caused by resends/noise etc taking up bandwidth. Also I guess it keeps loads of "jobs worths " in employ at BT managing the system. The 21CN network will reduce BT overheads massively and this along with quite large increases in wholesale prices will no doubt boost my dividend on my incredibly lowly valued few BT shares!!

Yes AAisp is Andrews and Arnold , this is a wrong place to do any selling but do check them out and try the Thinkbroadband recent news article on them.

Thanks to Sebby and Rik . Karma being sent.

HAIRYMAN

[Tacitus]

Yes AAisp is Andrews and Arnold , this is a wrong place to do any selling but do check them out and try the Thinkbroadband recent news on them.

I'd almost encourage you to give them a go as I'd be interested to see how you get on. 

I recently posted over on iDNatter regarding A & A and their 'continuous monitoring' system.  I'm not sure it would have any advantages over an ISP such as iDNet who have a good relationship with BT and use the same tools.  In effect as Simon_idnet says, they do part of BTs job for them. 

Whilst the A & A approach 'may' have some advantages, for best results it appears to use a proprietary firewall - the Firebrick' - designed by themselves and Watchfront.   See here.  These aren't cheap, although if they're aimed at corporates it's probably par for the course.

[hairyman]

Date                    Downstream    Upstream        Connection
07/04/09 20:36      3049.66 Kbps 373.91 Kbps     IDnet

Just did a Thinkbroadband speedcheck it shows the tp at 3meg  , funny that the IPprofile was 1500k just two days ago.  The profile went back to 4meg about a week ago then dropped after 4 disconnects back to 1500k where it remained until maybe yesterday.

I will try to persuade the BT speedtester to let me know the current state of play, meanwhile it looks like rain for the weekend , that should dampen the rubbish "twisted pair" joints?  Thanks to any good gremlin for pressing some button somewhere if that is what happened , or thanks to the great but unnecessary god of IPprofiling if it was based on some program.

HAIRYMAN

[Rik]

It might just be worth giving a 2700 a try, Hairy. Once you've done that from the test socket, you've eliminated any possibility it's at your side of the master, and can get IDNet to call in BT without fear of charging. It would be worth running Routerstats too, to document the drops.

[hairyman]

I I have tried the other router ( Creative BB Blaster!) with similar results.
Just had 21 drop outs in 3 days so tput is now down to 1200k ish with a IPprofile of 1500kbps , I might ask IDnet to put me on a fixed 2meg service . Still think the solution is to move ISP to see if they have a better method of fixing a poor line. I picked up the phone the other day and got a complete gamut of squeaks, wails and pops , basically it sounded like the line is picking up LF atmospherics generated by I seem to remember the "northern lights" . The line was unusable but BT say it is OK as they can only do one test at one time.

As I only live 400metres from the exchange and all the cable is underground this shows that these signals are VLF and can penetrate underground ( these frequencies can reach submarines hundreds of metres below the sea surface. The poor cable jointing ( difficult if it is really aluminium/copper ) will rectify radio signals into audio frequency noises ( detected) .


Router Stats before reboot tonight______________
Item            Downstream       Upstream 
SNR Margin       28.0              17.0 dB
Line Attenuation 42.1           26.0 dB
Errored Seconds  157              17 
Loss of Signal       21               21 
Loss of Frame        1                0 
CRC Errors             0                0 
Data Rate           3008          448 kbps
Latency INTERLEAVED           INTERLEAVED


Router Stats after reboot

Item        Downstream      Upstream 
SNR Margin     16.5           16.0 dB
Line Attenuation 37.8        23.5 dB
Errored Seconds    0             0 
Loss of Signal       0              0 
Loss of Frame       0              0 
CRC Errors           0               0 
Data Rate          6304          448 kbps
Latency       INTERLEAVED    INTERLEAVED


BT speedtest from a couple of days ago
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 6336 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 1500 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1356 kbps



Currently I am at point where I dont use the phone or bother much with the net , a borrowed 3G dongle shows the way forward as you can get 15Gb a month for £15 a month on a 24 mnth contract , ie three times the downloads of IDnet for a little less than £3 saving. Speeds here on O2/Voda are fair , they are concluding a network sharing business I understand , and 3 and T-mob are doing the same T mobile has good coverage here not sure on 3G though. Feels like I am being ripped off for my current £33 monthly basic telecoms spend.

I will research where to get a 2700 router for a bit of a laugh/technical exercise?

Any ideas any one.

HAIRYMAN

[Glenn]

There are plenty of 2700's on eBay starting from 1p. Use this link and search for 2700hgv http://www.buyui.com/

Vodaphone have just signed a deal with Ericsson, for them to manage their network, much like Ericsson now do with Three. MBNL, are in the early stages of rolling out 97% coverage by land mass, for a combined T-Mobile/Three 3G service.

[Rik]

If you can hear noise on the line, Hairy, try disconnecting the router and see if it stops. It could be your filter has failed.

[Gary]

If its a filter go for a faceplate one if possible like the adsl nation one (broadbandbuyer have one branded with their name now) they help a lot, when I had a long line at my old home the 2700 really did the trick. Alos if you are using a Netgear at all or have one try the DGteam firmwares, they have spent the time and effort to take the buggy Netgear firmwares and improve them, including a slider for SNR which may help you. http://dgteam.ilbello.com/ I'm running version 0850 with the updated adsl driver, for DG834N and it has so many more features, and the very latest broadcom adsl drivers which includes phyRe technology & impulse noise reduction support, something Netgear never bothered to implement.

[Simon]

There are plenty of 2700's on eBay starting from 1p. Use this link and search for 2700hgv http://www.buyui.com/

Current advice seems to be to get a V5, and avoid ones with the latest (V6) firmware.

[hairyman]

Hi Gary

I have used a ADSL nation filtered faceplate for two years , the noise I call "sky noise" ie the squeaks and long swooping tones is there now and again. The crackles are are adsl based and happen as the SNRs go low mostly on the upstream link, I suspect they are caused by rectification in poor joints. I have tried many filters before I fitted the ADSL faceplate and even double filtering the phone and router makes no difference. Most of the time the line is quiet and the bb syncs at up to 7.6meg meg at 9db SNR . The SNRs vary and the line attenuation jump around by up to about 5db.

Could I emphasise this noise has been present since I was transfered to 8meg MAX ( is it three years or four years ago now??) . We now have had heavy rain all day the first for many weeks, the line noise gets better when it is wet and the BT ducts are full of water. I live 400 mtrs from the exchange line of sight or maybe 1 / 1.2 km by the worst case main road cable route.

I use A Zoom X5V router or a Creative BB Blaster and have tried other borrowed routers and USB modems. All give the same results. My first router was a Speedtouch and gave similar results until it died of old age or getting fed up of the grotty line.

HAIRYMAN

[hairyman]

Speed Test Results
Date 16/04/09 20:54:06
Speed Down 3487.38 Kbps ( 3.4 Mbps )
Speed Up 373.70 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.thinkbroadband.com

Just done a speedtest and I am back to 3.5meg , how can it drop to 1.2meg from 4meg then back to 3meg plus all within a few days , the IPprofile seems to have tracked this as well ( generally I get 60% of the IPprofile as peak actual Throughput with drops to 40% in mid evening or early weekday mornings which seem the most contended times).

I thought the profile was fixed for 5 days ish before a change upwards.

I will go away and do a BT test .

Regards

HAIRY



When I checked the IPprofile last it was set at 1.5meg .

[davej99]

This is a case, Hairy, of a frustrated IDNET customer that needs some practical muscle from IDNET not A&A. The forum has pretty much hit all the usual causes and you are going in circles, soon to be hairless. We need some positive action here. 

In my opinion, an exchange distance of 400 metres should give good performance and an attenuation better than 37dB. The fact that the attenuation is high and variable, that there is audible noise on the line, that there is repeated loss of sync which can sometimes be quite good, all points to a basic line problem. We need not be concerned about profiles, two wire routers or esoteric radiations.

If this was my line and I was seeing this performance, having tested at the primary socket with a proven good modem & filter and no other connection whatever but a traditional phone, I would press IDNET to have BT investigate. I would certainly not accept any charge if BT agree that the weight of evidence indicates a line fault, whether one is found on the day or not.

I would probably do patient quiet line testing and maybe check line DC voltage to build a case. If the DC voltage is way low, unstable or falls dramatically when lifting the receiver of a traditional phone I would be asking why. Cordless phones and modems draw little or no line current and will work to a point with high resistance joints. Some say broadband will even work with an open line return.

Anyway, Hairy, assuming you have done your bit and eliminated your equipment, it is time to cut to the chase and press IDNET get a grip on BT and no excuses.

Cheers, Dave

[Simon]

To be fair, although I can't comment on exactly what they have done, I don't think IDNet have exactly ignored this issue.  They do have good contacts within BT, and can usually get things sorted.  Admittedly, that doesn't explain why Hairy still has the problem, and, obviously, further investigation is needed.

I don't know what contact Hairy has had with IDNet, but I will alert them to this thread. 

[davej99]

One of the problems we have is that most problems are user equipment or laws of physics related and this forum is second to none in helping customers resolve them. Moreover, IDNET do not compound these problems because they keep their own house in very good order.  As a result customers can easily believe they should keep on looking for a solution, even when the problem is outside their control. When the problem is not self-inflicted or a matter of physics, however, we really need IDNET to take up the case with BT. In return, we users better be sure we do not cry wolf.

[hairyman]

Hi All

I may be a Hairyman but not a WereWolf.

The IPprofile has bounced back to 5500kbps, it was 1500 three days ago and 4500 a week ago and about ten days ago 1500k , how come all the changes? I think these changes are beyond the range of automatic IPprofile control so I assume someone has reset them?

If so thanks to BT/Idnet, the voice line has a simple phone on it , I have checked the line voltage it was spot on, but I will check it with say a 3 or 4REN load equivalent , I will borrow the calibrated resistance load from the lab at work ( I work in electrical / electronic equipment calibration and build) and load it up. The line length could be 1.2km if it followed the long road route but as far as I can see there are green roadside boxes all the way to the main road ducting.

BT always say they can charge for a visit but decline to say on what basis. They have called from the exchange over a mobile to mobile to mobile call when checking the bb connection, this was several years ago when I was with Eclipse Internet and on Max , they said they would call to check outside but just did a visual check outside the property at the grey termination box. On another visit they fitted a modern mastersocket ( NTE5?) with the split type face plate.

I only have a mastersocket , router stats remain the same when I have a simple phone or DECT phone plus answerphone combo connected. I cannot hear any significant MW/LW noise on a radio moved around the house and near cabling. I have a simple central heating system with no fancy peizo igniter's and my immediate neighbour is similarly old fashioned, these can make noise. The fridges have been tested for electrical noise.

I could borrow the spectrum analyser and trace recorder and see what RF is around here but I cant see any large CB/Radio amateur aerials nearby ( I am an inactive licenced radio amateur so know what a bit of RF into BB or any modern PC/telecoms gear can do).

I do know IDnet have been very active in this issue, but I hope you all can appreciate there is no solution as of now. If I was miles from the exchange I could understand. One of my close friends son uses BB on our exchange but with a 3.5km line  gets a solid 3meg tput in the evenings with only occasional dips and peaks from this.

I have ( if you have the patience to looks back through the full thread!!!) emailed  Ian Livingstone and been called at home by the MD of BT Wholesale on a Sat morning from his home , he apologised for his young children in the background. The line did improve I lost 3db of line attenuation and they put me on a less contended VP ( probably an Office/Business one?) which got the regular tput up nearer the Sync speed from a level often below 25% of the Sync/IPprofile. This has brought the average tp up from below one meg to nearer the Uk average of three meg.

The trouble is with the recent 52 disconnects in a few hours then over 20 in a few days on a regular basis the line goes back to a crawl.
I do live away from a big city but am hardly in the "sticks" and others locally get better more reliable links with ISPs with poor speed ratings.

I will try to call IDnet tommorrow but frankly I am starting to think its a waste of effort as this saga is now many years old.



BT test below from tonight 16/04/2009

Hairyman

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 6304 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4194 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester

[Rik]

TBH, Hairy, the profile seems to be responding quickly because you are getting large changes in sync speed, which is how it's designed to work. You need to talk to support and let them try to fix it.