Slow Speeds since I got the 8meg Max service

[Lance]

What happens is that, on both BT and llu, the sync speed is determined by the noise on the line at the exact moment sync is negotiated. On llu, that's it and you get the best effort up to the sync. On BT, they add the profile to limit throughput.

The way BT work with errors is to increase the default target noise margin in 3db stages from 6 to 15 and when the noise margin gets higher sync gets lower. Lower sync should give more stability and therefore reduce errors. The profile is purely related to sync so even if you have, say, three reconnects as long as they are all within the same profile band the profile will remain the same. If one was a low sync, the prolfile would drop to reflect this and take up to 5 days to recover.

Hope this helps explain the relationship between sync and profiles!

[hairyman]

Hi Again
-------------------------------
Lance -- Just seen your reply Thanks for that I did understand the sync / profile link  correctly then , the bit about the resync rate after a dropout explains my problem as it trys to reconnects while the line noise is still present rather than wait 10 seconds or whatever to reconnect. My line noise is intermittant but persistant , it is often audible on the voice line but the drops and voice noise are not always coincident. The noise lasts maybe 10 seconds then goes for between a few minutes to several weeks. Usually the drops are less frequent after and during rainy spells ( all the cables are underground).

The line attn down stream is 37db over the less than 1km actual line length to the exchange.
-------------------------------------------------------
BT speedtest done tonight , don't forget I am 400mtrs from the exchange ( Line of site distance). I have had 8 disconnects in 24hrs but the profile remains 5500k usually it would be down at 1500/1750k after these.

Maybe they have been doing some work on the line? or with SNRs etc. For the last six months at least my "normal" SNR has been set at 15 to 17db to try to reduce the disconnects.

Just connected up a spare router modem to see how that performs now. Its a very expensive ( £9.99 !! ) Creative one as opposed to the Zoom X5V I normally use.

The router stats seem the same on both routers.

The Actual throughput is very good tonight , probably the best I have seen from a BT test. The net normally gets faster in the mid / late evening and at weekends , speeds drops and disconnects are  generally worse  in weekday daytimes?

Hairyman


Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   Your DSL connection rate: 6656 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
   IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5135 kbps

[Lance]

If your 8 resyncs all trained at the same sort of sync, then the profile won't drop.

That speedtest isn't too bad, certainly better than my line can do!

[hairyman]

Yes tonights tputs are very good , more than acceptable!!

Normal good tputs are 2 to 3.5 meg when the Profile is at 5.5meg.

The trouble occurs when the Profile drops to 1500k or 1750k and the tput below that, then it stays that way for one day to over a week.

I would be happy with a stable 2 to 3meg  actual tput and a quiet voice line.

Hairyman

[Rik]

Profiling is totally unnecessary, Hairy, it's purely for BT's convenience. Sometimes, profiles stick high as well as low. Sadly, BT always seem to notice eventually.

[hairyman]

 Hi Rik

Yes I think BT is probably unnecessary as well as the Profiling system.

BT Speedtest below is more typical of tputs we get here. Usually about 33% of the IPprofiling limit. Probably high congestion on the BT system. I did one as the net seemed slow and I couldn't get a smooth video stream from CH4 .

Why don't we all rename The IPprofiling system for what it is a traffic management system along with the pathetically equipped exchanges they run.

Hairyman

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 6880 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1757 kbps

[Rik]

It's not just affecting IDNet either, Hairy, I saw an almost identical report from a Plusnet customer over on ThinkBroadband yesterday.

[hairyman]

Hi Rik and Idnetters

BT are the pits and are dragging down good ISPs like IDnet down to the lowest common denominator ( Talk Talk , Orange, and BTs own service).

Its rained hard for most of today here in Gloucestershire. This normally quietens down my line which normally gets worse in dry spells.

Today was the reverse and I had so many disconnects the router I think gave up and needed a full power off type reboot to get any connection at all . The idiot BT profile system now sees the profile as 1000k down from a normal max of 5500k at 6500k sync. Downstream SNRs are 16db at 6500k after a reboot.

Router connection page is attached as a pdf.

The line noise was quite noticeable but on incoming audio only while I talked with Simon at IDnet just B4  6pm tonight.

Idnets main suggestion is to order up a new line?

Choices are

1) Order a new line cost £100 plus which will probably involve digging up my garden or drive or paving all fairly unacceptable!!

2) Call out BT faults and take a likely £100 charge when they find no fault ( as the noise is very intermittant but persistant over three plus years now)

3) Find an ISP that provides a 2meg fixed service and loose the profiling. ( Or get the SNR fixed at say 24Db rather than the current 15Db level at which BT / Idnet have asked for it to be fixed to "stabilise the line").

4) Move to Talk Talk or Orange as the only LLus on the exchange and loose the profiling. Neither very attractive options and a min 1yr tie in? Cant understand why O2/Be are not available as all similar size surrounding exchanges have them , maybe they have seen the line data here from their Ipstream customers here?

5) Try AAiSP who say they can help they say ordering a new line is a waste of cash?

6) Just take the cheapest option as currently I don't need a premium service on a rubbish BT line.

I live in a town in a fairly highly populated county the exchange is 400mtrs away and its even fairly modern.I can only feel for those in the real country where speeds of 128/256k are all they can get, this covers a huge chunk of the UK. 3G type internet is poor here although Vodaphone is rumoured to have improved coverage here recently. Again checking the 3G and landline not spots on the coverage maps shows they are nearly identical!!

Question---- Does any one know of a Router modem where the time from a disconnect to an attempted reconnect can be adjusted from the default few seconds. I believe if I could increase this time,  the highly intermittant but persistant line noise would be clear on a reconnect. Currently both routers I have try to reconnect while the noise period ( typically less than ten seconds) is still there so a low sync is made or indeed none at all.

Hairyman





BT speedtest tonight as below--------------
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   Your DSL connection rate: 6208 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
   IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 888 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester

Router connection stats attached below.



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Simon_idnet]

We can downgrade your line to the fixed-rate 1Mbps or 2Mbps service if you wish. That won't fix the audible noise that you can hear on the line though.

Simon

[Sebby]

It's a shame that BT won't acknowledge an issue. Noise on the line suggests a problem to me.

[bobleslie]

Until the noise is fixed, Hairy's not going anywhere.

As someone who has had direct experience of audible voice line noise, and BT pretending that there's no problem, I sympathise.

Everytime I heard such noise I used to ring up BT and complain. They sent out engineers who always said it was 'within spec'.  How can it be 'within spec' when you can hear the loud crackling on the line?

At some point over an 18 month period someone finally decided there was a problem and that they would fix it. Several weeks and line staff later it was fixed for good and compensation was gratefully received.

I'd just keep pestering until you get what you want, or send an e-mail to BT's CEO if you want more direct action.

[rireed3]

How can it be 'within spec' when you can hear the loud crackling on the line?

They think it's not loud enough to interfere with conversation -- broadband doesn't count.  

It's a political decision against 'public service', where something is considered important enought to provide even though it's costly to government funds.  Broadband is not considered that important, so we have the Heath-Robinson ADSL approach on existing voice pairs and all kinds of things that BT don't have to fix unless voice is impaired.

Richard

[Rik]

A nice summary of the problem, Richard. BT aren't required to provide ADSL, so if they don't feel like it, they hide behind the current USO.

[bobleslie]

They think it's not loud enough to interfere with conversation -- broadband doesn't count.  

Who mentioned broadband? Not me. Strictly voice communications. Loud crackling on the line isn't acceptable. IIRC Hairy has to replace the receiver 'cos he can't carry on a telephone conversation. Saying that is 'within spec' is a load of round objects. I wouldn't stand for it, certainly not for 3 years. 

[rireed3]

"What we have heeyah is a failyah to communicate." 

[Simon]

 

[hairyman]

Hi All

Thanks for the comments and advice.
The line noise was very bad at around 1700 to 1800 hrs tonight. The broadband dropped and disconnected every time I picked up a dial tone or put the line down. I changed the filter and swapped phones and it was just the same.

I only have a mastersocket with no other phone wiring. I switched the replacement phone ( an simple one that needs no power source other than the line volts) over to pulse dial and gave it a few hundred number 8 to chew on. This should put some stress on the line and pulls some current down it.

This seemed to have no effect straight away but now at 1845hrs and after scoffing my diner the bb drops on picking up a line have gone?

The bb still is Cr*p with less than one meg tput not bad for the 400mtrs to the exchange!!

The voice line noise is very bad when it is there but like the bb drops intermittant and but persistant.

BT persistantly say there is no detectable line problem on a remote test. They have stated they will charge if they turn out and find no fault with their gear including finding no fault at all.

BT flat refuse to provide any physical help they even have ignored my written and emailed complaints. All they seem to do is remote tests!

Hopefully BT will fail soon as their pension shortfall is now reported to be at least 12 billion quid and there are no signs of profits to build it up. Plus they have laid off or planned laying off thousands of staff.

The line noise problem is not so much of a problem now as we use the phone only for a few ( though longish) calls a month mostly we use £10 a month Tesco contract mobis to get our 400min/month to each other and family on the shorter important calls. These are more reliable being clearer and less distorted than BTs copper cr*p.

Mainly we like to browse the net and watch the occasional 4OD or iPlayer TV programme. IDnets 5gig a month is plenty mostly we use 1 to 2 gig a month.


Question  ___   I assume switching to a fixed service ( 2meg ) would have no profiling involved ? Would it cost the same?

When I had a fixed 2meg speed before BT foisted the 8megMAX farce on us I used to get 2272Kbps Sync and consistent SNRs of 30plus DB and tputs of 1800/1900Kbps day and night. But that was before BB was popular and most were still on dialup if at all.


Hairyman

PS  Phone billing transfered to IDnet tomorrow ( 31st July) so at least least the calls and rental will be cheaper and there will be "real" people to deal with the service rather than script followers in foreign parts.

[Rik]

The PS might be of help, since that's where you now report faults too.

IDNet can, for the moment, switch you to fixed rate, it costs them more from BT, but I think they charge the same as a Max package. In time, this will become impossible with 21CN/WBC, where everything will be based on a profiled rate-adaptive service.

[hairyman]

TODAYS SPEEDTEST FROM BT BELOW-----
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   Your DSL connection rate: 6592 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
   IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 879 kbps

Hi Rik

Thanks for the helpful advice, I will probably go for the 2meg option with IDnet , it seems a bit daft that it costs more , don't think 21CN/WBC is due for 4 or 5 years around here.

I still have BTWholesales CEO mobile number from when he called me at home to discuss the problem way back last year I think. I could try another call there.

Failing that emailing BTs  Mr Ian Livingthingy worked last time, well it got some sticking plaster fix that has since failed? Is he still there or been sacked yet with a 10mil payout ( standard practice?).

Alternative is try AAISP as IDnet seem to think the best option is to order up a new line, cannot see how that would be easy as there is only one working pair underground from my house to the GPO inspection cover over the road. I know the other pair on the cable failed about ten years ago as BT swapped me to the other pair when the line went dead for nearly two weeks. Both spare cables showed a short to ground I seem to remember( I might be tempted to check with a multimeter ). The cables are buried under, concrete, paving and tarmac.

Thanks again

Hairyman

[Rik]

Ian Livingstone is still there, but nowhere near as helpful as Uncle Ben used to be, Hairy. I think IDNet are working on the principle that BT would have to lay new cable, which might solve the problem.

[hairyman]

The distance from my outside grey box to the manhole over the road is maybe 50yards . I assume in this manhole there will be spare ways they can try? The immediate area is about 25yrs old housing with no housing infill since then so I imagine there is a fair chance there. The "suspect extra pair " from here to the manhole is all underground and would need (a) the road digging up and (b) my new drive digging up ( no chance , thousands of quids) , maybe they could dig up more road and enter my property on the other side? We are on a corner plot so have two ( almost three actually) road frontages onto quiet cul de sacs both ways.

We shall see. I will see how the line goes over this weekend and call the nice people at IDnet on Monday. Probably a move to 2meg fixed is the best first option as that is better than spending half the time on sub one meg followed by 3 or maybe occasionally 5meg !!!!!!!.

The excitement is getting too much , so back to gardening, its not raining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hairyman

[Rik]

It's your call, so to speak.

[hairyman]

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 6496 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4416 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

Hi Rik

Isn't the profiling scheme mad, I have had 13 disconnects in 24hours yet the profile has gone up from 1000kbps to 5000kbps . Likewise the tput has gone up  five times.

Question-- I think a 2meg service will allow BBC iPlayer and 4od at std resolution -- am I correct?

At a one meg profile connection these dont work well.

Had a good look around the street last night the BT manhole is actually immediately across the road from the side of my house so only 8 mtrs or so to my  outside wall ( on opposite side of the house to the current BT feed ). So if the problem is there no great difficulty , but I guess the fault is most likely elsewhere purely as a matter of chance and the line length involved, as there a presumably several other manholes and green boxes on the way down to the exchange!

[Rik]

Isn't the profiling scheme mad, I have had 13 disconnects in 24hours yet the profile has gone up from 1000kbps to 5000kbps . Likewise the tput has gone up  five times.

It's totally mad and totally unnecessary.  

Question-- I think a 2meg service will allow BBC iPlayer and 4od at std resolution -- am I correct?

No idea, I'm afraid, as I never use them.

Had a good look around the street last night the BT manhole is actually immediately across the road from the side of my house so only 8 mtrs or so to my  outside wall ( on opposite side of the house to the current BT feed ). So if the problem is there no great difficulty , but I guess the fault is most likely elsewhere purely as a matter of chance and the line length involved, as there a presumably several other manholes and green boxes on the way down to the exchange!

Potentially, many.

[hairyman]

Hi
I have just checked my phone line voltage .

Its 49.99volts "on the hook" and 16.73volts on picking up a call. This was while the line was quite noisy, also as soon as I picked up or put down the voice line the router SNR dips massively and mostly disconnects. Tried new filters and simple phone with no change.

Are the voltages about right for one phone and one router on the line?

The cables appear to be all copper at this end.

Hairyman