Hi, Just joined Idnet

[MikeT]

I have 2 phone lines at present (both had new wires from the pole in the last 3yrs) and one is connected to Pipex broadband who I have been with since dialup/Isdn days. I live a fair way from the exchange so have just a 1meg service from them. Did I say service, sorry slip of the lip. Its not been too good with outages lately which is why I thought I would try here on the other line 
I went for homemax in the hope I can squeeze a little more out of the line than I get with Pipex, I guess I have now to wait a few days to see what the software finally trains my service to. Its already slightly faster than the other service but not by much. Upload speed doubled but d/load is just .9meg which is .1 more than the old service.
I do need a fast ping to the USA and so far its disappointing with 168av against 135av to the same destination with my old service so I hope things improve.
I may be back to pick some brains if it doesnt!

[thetrevone]

Welcome,
not sure if you have read some of the other threads yet but there is a problem with high pings at present , though not everybody is seeing it and Simon one of the owners has posted to say they are in the process of trying to resolve it.
Hope things improve for you shortly
regards
Doug

[Inactive]

Welcome Aboard Mike.. 

[stevelondon]

Hi Mike 

[Rik]

Welcome to the happy club, Mike.

[cavillas]

Welcome to IDNet.  Hope you find the experience worthwhile.

[Nerval]

Yo Mike and welcome like they say.
But I think Rik means welcome to the Happy Farm!!

[Rik]

You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

[Nerval]

You not comment?  That'll be a first!!

[Rik]

It's nearly Xmas, I'm trying to be nice to you!   8)

[cavillas]

Why?

[Nerval]

That'll be a first!!

[Rik]

They say the average person needs three repititions to remember something... 

[maxping]

They say the average person needs three repititions to remember something... 

You will have to type it 3 times its repetitions 

[Nerval]

If he used FF the spellchecker would've told him that lol

[Rik]

You will have to type it 3 times its repetitions 

repetitions
repetitions
repetitions

I was in a rush to write before eating, and I hate to let good food go cool, hence my shape.

[Rik]

If he used FF the spellchecker would've told him that lol

Trouble is, spell checker dependency makes me careless.

Love the reindeer!

[Nerval]

Multitasking is the answer Rik.
Eat while you type 

[Rik]

I tried that, but the chips kept getting stuck in the keyboard.

[maxping]

I tried that, but the chips kept getting stuck in the keyboard.

Microchips? 

/Groan.

[Rik]

Naah, I prefer full size, they're more healthy that way!

[MikeT]

Thanks for the welcome, I think 

Its not looking good in the homestead so far, day 3 and its dire speed wise

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/day%203%20evening.jpg

It did manage to pop up to 448/1536 yesterday for a while but now seems to have taken a dive back to where it started on day1

Adsl speedtest gave .9 and .4

Advice please 

[maxping]

Here you go.

[Rik]

Here you go.

You had to go and make me hungry again, didn't you! 

Why is it that I like all the things that are bad for me (my eyesight is terrible ), and not the things which are good for me? 

[Rik]

Thanks for the welcome, I think 

Its not looking good in the homestead so far, day 3 and its dire speed wise

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/day%203%20evening.jpg

It did manage to pop up to 448/1536 yesterday for a while but now seems to have taken a dive back to where it started on day1

Adsl speedtest gave .9 and .4

Advice please 

For a 63db attenuation, you'd only qualify for 512k as a fixed-rate ADSL. My guess is that you are not going to get much better speed. Are you aware of how many re-syncs there have been? Your IP profile will be driven down by the lowest sync event.

For a long line, there's not too much you can do except maximise the potential of your internal wiring. Steps to try:

1) If you have an NTE5 master socket (the type where the lower part of the faceplate can be detached), then try using the test socket (exposed when you remove the faceplate). This connects your router to the exchange pair directly, and eliminates the effects of any internal wiring issues. If this improves matters, then you have a wiring problem.

2) Remove the ring or bell wire, which is on terminal three, and is often an orange/white wire. Do this at the master socket and at any extensions. The ring wire is not needed by modern phones, and it acts as a giant antenna, picking up all those MW frequencies which interfere with ADSL.

3) Double-check that anything connected to your line is connected through a filter. I would advise you to invest in the ADSL Nation XF-1e, I don't believe you can get a better filter and they certainly helped my marginal line. http://www.adslnation.com/products/xf-1e.php

4) If you have a Sky box, try disconnecting it. Some makes and models seem to have issues with broadband. If that helps and you prefer, or have, to keep it connected, try putting a second filter, in series, to the Sky box.

Hope that gives you something to work with. If you don't have an NTE5, look for the master socket (has a large capacitor in it) and test there with everything else unplugged.

Some routers seem to do better with long lines than others, so it might be worth trying to borrow a router to see if things improve.

[cavillas]

Why is it that I like all the things that are bad for me (my eyesight is terrible ), and not the things which are good for me? 

What are you doing to make your eyesight get worse then, you know the old saying... 

[Rik]

It's called feeding you a line. 

[MikeT]

Thanks for the reply Rik.

I have an NTE5 socket and as soon as I get to a point where the family are not always wanting the phone I will try the master socket (how long a test will be needed to see any difference I wonder?)
I will remove the ringer wire too as I have already done that on the other Pipex phone line as it was causing problems.
All the phones on this line are dect and just one is master and plugged in through a filter, I note what you say about filters and will bear the Nation one in mind for later.
I dont have a sky box or anything else connected to this line at all, just a couple of unused extension boxes which I may disconnect to see if that helps.
Here http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/pipex%20adsl%20data.jpg is a screenshot of the other Pipex line adsl specs, I dont understand too much of the deetail so perhaps you can tell me whats better or worse between that on and the other line I am using for Idnet?
Both lines were replaced in recent years to the pole from my home and afaiaa both go to the same exchange. Both have USR modem routers attached.

Many thanks

[Rik]

Thanks for the reply Rik.

Glad to try and help. Note the try!

I have an NTE5 socket and as soon as I get to a point where the family are not always wanting the phone I will try the master socket (how long a test will be needed to see any difference I wonder?)

It won't take long. Before you do the test, check your sync speed, attenuation and noise margin. When you re-connect at the test socket, do the same. With conventional ADSL, you would be looking for a change in noise margin, but with Max you are looking for a change in sync speed. Unfortunately, this depends to an extent on what frequency bundles you pick up during the synchronisation, but a big increase in sync speed indicates a problem with your wiring. For example, I will only see a change of 32-64k in speed.

I will remove the ringer wire too as I have already done that on the other Pipex phone line as it was causing problems.

One of the best and simplest things you can do.

All the phones on this line are dect and just one is master and plugged in through a filter, I note what you say about filters and will bear the Nation one in mind for later.

Some makes of DECT phone seem to affect ADSL, but I have never noticed an issue with mine. Try unplugging it and see if your figures improve, but it shouldn't be an issue. Do bear in mind that if the line monitoring equipment sees a lot of re-syncs in a short space of time, it may interpret it as a problem and push down your BRAS profile, so don't try everything at once.

I dont have a sky box or anything else connected to this line at all, just a couple of unused extension boxes which I may disconnect to see if that helps.
Here http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/pipex%20adsl%20data.jpg is a screenshot of the other Pipex line adsl specs, I dont understand too much of the deetail so perhaps you can tell me whats better or worse between that on and the other line I am using for Idnet?
Both lines were replaced in recent years to the pole from my home and afaiaa both go to the same exchange. Both have USR modem routers attached.

That shows a fixed rate connection so the comparisons aren't a lot of help. For a 1Mbps fixed rate, just outside the 2Mbps threshold set by BT (43db), I would have expected a better noise margin, so do try the test socket - if that and your normal connection are similar in speed, there's not much more you can do. If there's a big difference, you need to sort out your internal wiring, or get BT to do it. If you opt for the latter, make sure you book the visit through IDNet so you get a BB-trained engineer, not a voice one. It will cost you if he finds a fault after the master socket, last time I heard the fee is £60 for the first hour (or part) and then £15 per 15 minutes.

HTH

[MikeT]

OK Rik, here is what I got, I tried going direct to the master socket first and this was the result.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2018%20dec%20master%20socket.jpg

I then cut the ringer wire and replaced the faceplate on the master and got this.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2018%20dec%20ring%20cut%20not%20master.jpg

I then tried removing the only phone and its filter but it made no difference.

So a great improvement in numbers but when I then went to adsl guide and used their speed test it still gave me .9 and .4 so I am confused.

I have yet to try another filter, the one used is a new BT one, I do have 2 other makes here to try but as you said dont do too much or the BRAS profile (whatever that is) will get pushed down I thought it best to leave it for today.

One thing, the snr and attenuation figures seem to be a lot different (worse) on this Idnet line than on the Pipex line I gave a screenshot of yesterday?
Should I be concerned about this?

Thanks

Mike.

[Rik]

OK Rik, here is what I got, I tried going direct to the master socket first and this was the result.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2018%20dec%20master%20socket.jpg

I then cut the ringer wire and replaced the faceplate on the master and got this.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2018%20dec%20ring%20cut%20not%20master.jpg

Is there any chance you have swapped the captions on the images, Mike? I'm seeing better figures before you cut the ring wire, 3904 sync against 3712.

I then tried removing the only phone and its filter but it made no difference.

One less thing to worry about then.

So a great improvement in numbers but when I then went to adsl guide and used their speed test it still gave me .9 and .4 so I am confused.

Your IP profile takes anything from 75 minutes to three days (and, occasionally, forever) to reflect a change in the sync speed. Both sync speeds are in the middle of the band which will get you a 3000kbps speed. The .4 u/s is correct.

I have yet to try another filter, the one used is a new BT one, I do have 2 other makes here to try but as you said dont do too much or the BRAS profile (whatever that is) will get pushed down I thought it best to leave it for today.

I can never remember what it stands for ('cos I can't be bothered to memorise another acronym ), but basically it's the speed profile which BT apply to the line and which controls your throughput, regardless of your current sync speed. A low-sync speed event will immediately push BRAS down, a higher speed needs to be held for three days before it goes up again. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that you have had drops during the night hours which are keeping your profile down. Does your router log disconnects?

One thing, the snr and attenuation figures seem to be a lot different (worse) on this Idnet line than on the Pipex line I gave a screenshot of yesterday?
Should I be concerned about this?

Not necessarily. Your attenuation and margin d/s will increase and decrease respectively, to a much lesser extent so will your u/s, but what concerns me is that your u/s attenuation has gone from 31.5db to 63db, if I've read the screen shot right. It shouldn't be anywhere near that figure, and I wonder if the modem is reporting it correctly (it looks to be a different modem from the screen shot).

[MoHux]

Your problem looks almost certainly to do with the high attenuation figures.  To get top speeds they need to be ~20s.

It appears you have tried all the usual remedies without any improvement.
A couple of others; How long is the lead to the PC?  Does it run beside any other cables that could be carrying RF(radio freq') interference.  If so re-route it, and see if the attenuation figures improve.  If yes, replace lead with cat5 cable.

It may be worth trying the router you have on the Pipex line with IDNet Mike.  There could be an internal fault?

HTH 

Edit; Sorry Rik, you type faster!   

[MikeT]

Rik, the captions are correct, using the master meant I was not connected to any of the house extension circuits so it didnt matter if the ring wire was connected or not as I was direct to the copper wire incoming pair.
The drop in speed was when I reconnected the house extensions to the master socket and used the outer socket to plug to my filter/modem. The ring wire was cut at that time.

Quote
One thing, the snr and attenuation figures seem to be a lot different (worse) on this Idnet line than on the Pipex line I gave a screenshot of yesterday?
Should I be concerned about this?

Not necessarily. Your attenuation and margin d/s will increase and decrease respectively, to a much lesser extent so will your u/s, but what concerns me is that your u/s attenuation has gone from 31.5db to 63db, if I've read the screen shot right. It shouldn't be anywhere near that figure, and I wonder if the modem is reporting it correctly (it looks to be a different modem from the screen shot).

Now your getting confused Rik  You were looking at the Pipex line atten figures, which are a lot less than the line being used for Idnet. If it helps the screenshots as you noted are very different in style/colour for the 2 modems.

MoHux, the lead from the router to the pc (a new dell laptop) is cat5 and travels nowhere near any others, its 5mtrs long but thats not a problem with cat5 as I understand it.

I just swopped the filters over between the Pipex and Idnet lines and it made no difference to the atten or noise figures on the Idnet line.
I could swop the routers too, but for now I would like to see if I can eliminate every other possibility.

I do remember having a fault with the pipex line once before where the engineer eventually found a ground wire disconnected at the exchange and they spent a lot of time on that fault so maybe thats why the figures (att and snr) are much lower on the pipex line, maybe its been well looked at

Cheers

Mike.

[MoHux]

All noted Mike.  It looks as if the router change over is about due, you seem to have covered everything else.
One observation; you said at the beginning that BT installed NEW outside cable a short while ago.  Did they use copper cable, or aluminium I wonder??
I am no technician, but if one is copper and the other ally, it would cause the difference in results you have noted I think.

I hope you get it sorted soon Mike.

[MikeT]

MoHux, both lines were changed in the last 3yrs and The engineer used the best copper he had on both as he knew they were for ISDN or adsl and the distance from the exchange meant using the best possible. I seem to remember he said he had a choice of 2 and used the posh one

I may try changing the routers over later in the week, just let it settle a bit for tomorrow.

Thanks

Mike

[Rik]

Sorry, Mike, was out last night. What Mo has said is probably the best advice anyone can give you beyond "Phone CS". It would be worth swapping modems to see if the figures change. If they do (or don't) you will have eliminated all the variables at your end. Clearly your internal wiring is putting some loss into the equation, but it's not significant, though you could probably improve things by fitting a filtered faceplate.

All that said, the attenuation is still way too high, and I think - if you confirm it with a modem swap - a BT visit may be called for,

[MikeT]

Hi Rik, your allowed out?

I didnt use the idnet connect till this eve again and when I did guess what I find...

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2019%20dec%20interleaving%20on.jpg

The speed is slightly up on yesterdays, but the nasty lot turned interleaving on.

Now one reason for getting Idnet on this line, well the main reason really is to get the very fastest ping to the USA that I can and this wont help at all will it as interleaving puts 20-30ms on the ping time.

I dont have time tonight to swop modems but I will do it asap and get back to you here as well as getting onto support as I am sure the attenuation is external to me and as we have seen its much too high and a lot higher than the other line to my home.

Thanks

Mike.

[Rik]

Hi Rik, your allowed out?

Only very occasionally.

I didnt use the idnet connect till this eve again and when I did guess what I find...

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/usr%2019%20dec%20interleaving%20on.jpg

The speed is slightly up on yesterdays, but the nasty lot turned interleaving on.

The BT system will do that automatically if the line is unstable. Have you logged many disconnects?

Now one reason for getting Idnet on this line, well the main reason really is to get the very fastest ping to the USA that I can and this wont help at all will it as interleaving puts 20-30ms on the ping time.

I dont have time tonight to swop modems but I will do it asap and get back to you here as well as getting onto support as I am sure the attenuation is external to me and as we have seen its much too high and a lot higher than the other line to my home.

BT's DLM will switch interleaving on if it detects an unstable line, so the first issue is to identify any faults. Swapping modems will eliminate any issues at your end (or confirm them). The fact that the other line has better characteristics is not that unusual, I used to have something similar here in dial-up days. I'd advise checking with the other modem, then calling CS.

[MikeT]

Hi Rik, all I am able to find that may be logging disconnects is this.

Loss of Signal Defect: Momentary signal discontinuities=2

Nice english! 

[Rik]

Sounds like my BIOS - "no any drives found..."

It's possible that one of those disconnects pushed your sync low, and that's affected the BRAS profile. Call TS, they'll be able to see what speeds you have connected at.

[MikeT]

OK Rik here is the result of the test I did by swopping the modems round to see if the high attenuation was the line at fault.It seems to me the new modem is calling it higher as the old modem registered it lower when on the IDnet line.

Here is the NEW modem that was on Idnet now connected to  OLD Pipex line.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/1new%20usr%20on%20pipex%20dsl.jpg

Here is the OLD Pipex modem on the Idnet line, note the lower attenuation figures now.

http://www.miket.dsl.pipex.com/images/old%20pipex%20usr%20on%20idnet.jpg

So either the new modem is adding attenuation? or the lines are fine and it just produces higher figures for some reason.

What does the panel think now?

Cheers

Mike.

[Rik]

I think you've got a classic case of a modem mis-reporting data.

However, with either modem, your u/s attenuation is high and I think you should give CS a call, you may well have a line fault.

[MikeT]

Like others I am seeing very high pings today and the speed is from zero to normal and back again as it sees fit. Unlike others I have 2 phone lines and the Pipex service isnt suffering like this at all, in defense its not Max like Idnets though.
I just had to reboot the modem as the figures had dropped from 448/3809 to 448/2800, I only got 448/3072 after the reboot.

I emailed CS before Xmas to tell this was still an ongoing problem for me, not had a reply yet.

The ticket I opened on my problems was closed a day before the holidays without resolution as we were still working through the modem issues here.

Not looking too good....