I have been good, read the FAQs and searched and read every entry on surge protectors in the forums. You guys and gals seem friendly so I'll ask my question.
Has anyone found a method of surge protecting the phone line, or adsl connection into the router, without increasing the noise or decreasing the sync speed?
Stats and details of what I have tried follow.
I am using a Netgear DG834 (wired) router.
Router power plugged into a Belkin surge protector that I bought today (claims 2190 joules surge protection).
ADSL to router not at present surge protected. Microfilter straight into BT master socket and router connected to that microfilter.
PC on other side of bungalow and powered by a very nice APC surge protected UPS (runs the PC and monitor for about 90mins if power fails!).
LAN cable, 15metres, connects router to PC.
With that setup, I get good connection stats on my ADSL max.
Downstream attenuation 32dB
Sync 7616 Kbps
Noise margin 9.3dB right now (at about 0130 hours)
Throughput usually around 6.0 to 6.5 Mbps.
The Belkin surge protector has telecomms protection available. If I connect that to the BT master socket and connect the microfilter to the surge protected output, I re-sync a good bit slower, at about 6000 Kbps with 9dB noise margin.
I also have a little APC telecomms surge protector that I used to use when I connected via a modem. So I tried the APC telecomms protector for the router instead of the Belkin protection. That also lowered my sync to about 6000 Kbps.
So it seems that either of the two telecomms surge protection devices that I have tried cause a drop in sync speed of about 1600Kbps. That is a significant sacrifice in sync speed.
I do not want to do any more disconnections and reconnections now for a few days. And next time I do an experiment, I'll do it mid morning when the noise will be lower and I may get the high sync rate even with the additional noise that either telecomms surge protector is introducing.
When in Maplins today, I saw a surge protected ADSL microfilter. I might get one and try it.
Anyone have any methods that work well?
You don't need to worry about asking questions here. We're not one of those forums that tell people to "Use the Search button!"
Now, I'll leave it to someone who knows, to answer your question. :)
Personally, I've never found an anti-surge that didn't have an impact on performance, so I prefer to connect directly. The only times I disconnect the router are when I'm going to be away, or there is thunder around. In both cases, power down from the mains before unplugging from the phone line - it shouldn't then affect your profile.
Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2010, 10:28:15
Personally, I've never found an anti-surge that didn't have an impact on performance, so I prefer to connect directly. The only times I disconnect the router are when I'm going to be away, or there is thunder around. In both cases, power down from the mains before unplugging from the phone line - it shouldn't then affect your profile.
Having recently installed ( on your advice) an APC surge protector and battery backup just for the UPS component would you advise that the Fax/modem/phone RJ11 connections are not used and also what is the nature/extent of the impact on performance.
I certainly don't bother to use the phone line filtering - keeping the mains clean is much more important to me. On those filters that I've tested, I've usually seen a small rise in attenuation and, therefore, a small drop in sync speed. If you're near a profile threshold, that can be critical. IAC, I'm not convinced enough by these devices to trust them over a complete disconnection, which I know is safe. :)
The surge protector also acts as a "filter" - not designed to but the nature of the components fitted will make it so.
With your Netgear are you able to get a Bitloading plot that shows the number of bits used in each bin? If so, a with and without would be useful and I could see what the filtering effect is.
The other thought is that some Belkin power distribution boards have an ADSL splitter incorporated. If yours has, are you taking the unfiltered ADSL output?
Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2010, 10:28:15
Personally, I've never found an anti-surge that didn't have an impact on performance, so I prefer to connect directly. The only times I disconnect the router are when I'm going to be away, or there is thunder around. In both cases, power down from the mains before unplugging from the phone line - it shouldn't then affect your profile.
Thanks Rik. That suggests I can stop trying to find a no-impact surge protector. The advice to power down before disconnecting the phone line is great, thank you. I had seen that in the brilliant FAQ and duly noted it (though not until I had done a couple of disconnects without powering down). I too am connecting directly at the moment though I am a little uneasy about doing so.
I've never had a problem. The only two issues you need consider are a power cut or BT engineering work while you're away, which can mess with your profile, or a lightning strike at your end or the exchange. If the ground potential between the two locations is large, you'll get a surge which can wipe out any connected equipment. I've yet to see one, though I do take care. You can follow storm locations/movement here:
http://www.isleofwightweather.co.uk/live_storm_data.htm
Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2010, 12:08:22
I certainly don't bother to use the phone line filtering - keeping the mains clean is much more important to me. On those filters that I've tested, I've usually seen a small rise in attenuation and, therefore, a small drop in sync speed.
Yes, I forgot to mention that it took my attenuation from 32dB to 33dB. Though I guessed that the 1600kb/s drop in sync speed was caused by a constraint to preserve target noise margin rather than directly because of the increase in attenuation. But I know nothing. I'll be asking a separate question about some of the dependencies in the figures.
As for not relying on surge protection in a thunderstorm, I agree. But I would rather have some protection than none at all when I am out, though not away. Thunder is not always forecast.
I am not really worried about frying the router as it is easily replaced. What I am worried about is frying the PC motherboard with a surge transmitted from the phone connection through the router and down the LAN cable. It makes me wonder if I should go wireless but that has its own drawbacks and idnet tech support recommended wired before I migrated here.
I have mine connected directly too but the Ethernet cable from the router is filtered before reaching the PC.
What do you use, Mitch?
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 18:10:49
Yes, I forgot to mention that it took my attenuation from 32dB to 33dB. Though I guessed that the 1600kb/s drop in sync speed was caused by a constraint to preserve target noise margin rather than directly because of the increase in attenuation. But I know nothing. I'll be asking a separate question about some of the dependencies in the figures.
Fire away.
QuoteAs for not relying on surge protection in a thunderstorm, I agree. But I would rather have some protection than none at all when I am out, though not away. Thunder is not always forecast.
True, and I do have the luxury of being here and online most of the day. However, to put it in perspective, I've had ADSL since it became available, and I've used dialup before that, from 1984 onwards. I've never fried a router or modem yet.
QuoteI am not really worried about frying the router as it is easily replaced. What I am worried about is frying the PC motherboard with a surge transmitted from the phone connection through the router and down the LAN cable. It makes me wonder if I should go wireless but that has its own drawbacks and idnet tech support recommended wired before I migrated here.
See Mitch's post. :)
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 12:42:10
The surge protector also acts as a "filter" - not designed to but the nature of the components fitted will make it so.
That makes sense. It has to put
something between the input and the surge protected output.
Quote
With your Netgear are you able to get a Bitloading plot that shows the number of bits used in each bin?
I don't think so, not that I know what bitloading is ???
All I can get are TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
as well as attenuation, margin and sync.
QuoteThe other thought is that some Belkin power distribution boards have an ADSL splitter incorporated. If yours has, are you taking the unfiltered ADSL output?
This one only has unfiltered output sockets. They are standard telephone sockets and I therefore put a microfilter between there and the router's input cable.
Netgear's don't give bitloading, at least I've never been able to find it.
Quote from: Simon on Oct 14, 2010, 10:18:21
You don't need to worry about asking questions here. We're not one of those forums that tell people to "Use the Search button!"
Thanks Simon. I am glad about that. Some forums seem set up to terrify newcomers!
I've used one of these from Clarity (http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16152&cat=251&page=1) in the past. I can't say I noticed any significant effect on the attn or anything else. Whether it is any use against lightning surges is another matter.
They are currently listed as being out of stock but no doubt they could get one for you.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 18:30:24
Thanks Simon. I am glad about that. Some forums seem set up to terrify newcomers!
Oh, we lead you into a false sense of security first. :evil:
Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2010, 18:08:01
I've never had a problem. The only two issues you need consider are a power cut or BT engineering work while you're away, which can mess with your profile
I am confused. I thought you said that powering off the router stops the profile being affected.
Quoteor a lightning strike at your end or the exchange. If the ground potential between the two locations is large, you'll get a surge which can wipe out any connected equipment. I've yet to see one, though I do take care.
Same here. Fortunately, my bungalow has higher buildings and trees around and so has the exchange. I have lived here for 25 years and neither I nor any of my neighbours has ever had a lightning surge. My sister, in France, had a catastrophic one that killed her PC, phone, freezer and cooker.
QuoteYou can follow storm locations/movement here:
http://www.isleofwightweather.co.uk/live_storm_data.htm
Good grief, that is some site!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/Polchraine/TBB/2700_bitloading.jpg)
A bit loading graph from a 2700. Simplistically, the ADSL signal is split into lots of separate carrier frequencies and each of those can accommodate a number of data bits - some can take none and interference/noise shows up as low numbers.
There is a free application that allows you to capture it on Netgear routers (but I cannot remember the name).
Quote from: Simon on Oct 14, 2010, 18:35:13
Oh, we lead you into a false sense of security first. :evil:
;D
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 18:38:29
I am confused. I thought you said that powering off the router stops the profile being affected.
If you power off 'gently', ie, at the power socket, the router will send a last 'dying gasp' to tell the exchange that all is OK. In the event of a sudden power failure, as with a power cut, it won't.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 18:38:29
I am confused. I thought you said that powering off the router stops the profile being affected.
It does, but if you get a power cut, then a surge or several switching blips when it comes back up, they can cause trouble, hence the UPS.
QuoteSame here. Fortunately, my bungalow has higher buildings and trees around and so has the exchange. I have lived here for 25 years and neither I nor any of my neighbours has ever had a lightning surge. My sister, in France, had a catastrophic one that killed her PC, phone, freezer and cooker.
A friend of ours had their chimney stack blown off the house, just as if someone had bombed it. It was a real mess. :(
QuoteGood grief, that is some site!
Handy to keep an eye on.
Thanks Tacitus. That does look well worth trying out. From the description and the picture, that does not show what the female end looks like, I guess you plug the device between the microfilter's adsl out and the router cable. Yes? So the connection would go: BT master socket, to microfilter, to surge protector, to router?
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 18:41:21
There is a free application that allows you to capture it on Netgear routers (but I cannot remember the name).
DMT shows a small graph of the bit loads for compatible routers
http://dmt.mhilfe.de/
Quote from: Simon on Oct 14, 2010, 18:35:13
Oh, we lead you into a false sense of security first. :evil:
I am quaking with fear over the imminent punishment. :eek4:
It's called asset stripping. ;D Now, how do you like steaks... :evil:
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 18:41:21Simplistically, the ADSL signal is split into lots of separate carrier frequencies and each of those can accommodate a number of data bits - some can take none and interference/noise shows up as low numbers.
Kind of like a discrete transform. I have a mathematical background but I do not know much about ADSL!
QuoteThere is a free application that allows you to capture it on Netgear routers (but I cannot remember the name).
Do you recommend that I try to find it? I mean, if the with and without surge protector show different bit loading patterns, does that help us to decide what to do?
It does. :)
Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2010, 18:44:23
It does, but if you get a power cut, then a surge or several switching blips when it comes back up, they can cause trouble, hence the UPS.
Yes, that makes sense. It is also of some concern. In the winter, we sometimes get six power outages in a day. They usually last no more than a few seconds though occasionally one lasts for a half hour. My PC is nicely protected by the UPS but the router is nowhere near it.
I suppose I could relocate the router to next to the PC and then run a cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router. Then I could power the router from the same UPS as the PC. Or I could get a small low powered UPS just for the router.
Before I started fussing about getting good performance, I had the router next to the PC and powered from the UPS. But the ADSL into the router was fed off a simple flat wire telephone connection 20 metres long. That was noisy so I was losing a lot of sync speed all the time.
I would rather not digress onto that issue in this thread, I am going to ask my question about sync, noise etc in another thread. I was hoping to keep this one about surge protection :)
Quote from: Simon on Oct 14, 2010, 18:42:51
If you power off 'gently', ie, at the power socket, the router will send a last 'dying gasp' to tell the exchange that all is OK. In the event of a sudden power failure, as with a power cut, it won't.
Now, that I cannot understand. I would have thought that turning off the switch at the power socket is just as sudden for the router as a power cut. If it is going to send a "dying gasp" would it not do that using the last remains of power held in its own capacitors, or within the transformer rectifier smoother in the power adaptor? If so, I cannot really see any difference between a switch off and a power cut.
I can understand what Rik said about power surges when the power comes back after a cut. I can also imagine there may be surges before a power failure.
Anyway, I want to try to get back to my main point of surge protecting the phone line into the router.
My primary concern is avoiding sending a surge into the PC via the LAN cable and frying the motherboard.
The power into the router is surge protected by the Belkin unit. The telecom connection is not.
Loss of profile as a result of multiple power cuts is a secondary consideration but it would eventually recover. Whereas a fried motherboard doe not recover :(
If you are having that many power interruptions during a day that could be a problem with sync. Quite often the power may come back up a few times before being established and there may also be some very short interruptions that you do not notice but the router does.
Yes, definitely get the router onto the UPS and run a decent Cat5 extension to it. You can get RJ11 to RJ11 plugs with 2 pair Cat5 cable - I use a short one here.
The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!
edit to add:
V8.07 covers DG834GT/DG834NB/DG834PNB
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 20:22:04
If you are having that many power interruptions during a day that could be a problem with sync. Quite often the power may come back up a few times before being established and there may also be some very short interruptions that you do not notice but the router does.
Not getting any power interruptions at all at the moment. They tend to happen in January to March.
QuoteYes, definitely get the router onto the UPS and run a decent Cat5 extension to it. You can get RJ11 to RJ11 plugs with 2 pair Cat5 cable - I use a short one here.
Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?
Quote
The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!
I shall give it a whirl after I have had some food :)
The cable length between the adslrouter and master socket should be kept as short as possible, conversely running long lengths of ethernet cable from the router to network devices does not cause any issues.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 14, 2010, 21:10:49
The cable length between the adslrouter and master socket should be kept as short as possible, conversely running long lengths of ethernet cable from the router to network devices does not cause any issues.
Why?
The signal has already travelled several km so an extra 20m will not make a significant difference unless there are major noise sources.
To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 21:07:02
Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?
Yes, but you need to make sure it is Cat5e. Or find a local shop that can make one for you ensuring you use the right pairs to pins.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 14, 2010, 21:22:53
To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.
In this case he has no choice - router far away without UPS and power dropouts or close to te UPS and a small additional length of good quality twisted pair telephony wiring.
Quote from: Steve on Oct 14, 2010, 21:22:53
To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.
I'm just about to change my set up. Using a short, heavily shielded RJ11 to the router and cat6 STP cables to the PC's, I gain more than a decible in SNR, and also a small reduction in attenuation. This is over using a long shielded RJ11 and short cat5 cables. Syncing at 8128, so the higher I can get my SNR the better.
"Every little helps" ;D
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 14, 2010, 18:49:14
Thanks Tacitus. That does look well worth trying out. From the description and the picture, that does not show what the female end looks like, I guess you plug the device between the microfilter's adsl out and the router cable. Yes? So the connection would go: BT master socket, to microfilter, to surge protector, to router?
The fly lead terminates in an RJ11 plug, the body takes a standard BT phone plug.. I plugged mine directly into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate fitted to the main socket.
As I said whether it stops any power surges is impossible to say. I've never fried a router with or without it. :)
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 21:29:24
In this case he has no choice - router far away without UPS and power dropouts or close to te UPS and a small additional length of good quality twisted pair telephony wiring.
Good summary!
You, Steve and Ted do not appear to agree but I think your summary indicates that I should try the long Cat5e cable.
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 21:27:01
Quote from: armadillo
Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?
Yes, but you need to make sure it is Cat5e. Or find a local shop that can make one for you ensuring you use the right pairs to pins.
OK. I looked at the on-line sites for usual supplier, like Maplin, Scan, specialist cable shops. None of them have 20m RJ11 to RJ11 with Cat5e. They have them with ordinary flat router cable (no good) or much shorter with Cat5e. Finding a local shop that both knows what I am asking for and does not argue about whether I need such a cable is probably a non-starter. There are hardly any computer type places round here and I am likely to be told all I need is a the flat lead modem cable.
So my only way would be to make one by buying the plugs, the cable and the crimping tool
Maplins
stranded cable (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=13230)
tool and plugs (http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=usb&ModuleNo=99612&C=SO&U=Strat15) (including RJ45 that I don't need)
Then comes the matter of which pins and which wires. I believe I need only use the two centre pins on each plug?
I guess I take one twisted pair, eg 0range and white and connect that to the plugs in crossover mode. i.e. with both plugs connector side up, I'd have orange to the left centre pin and white to the right centre. On the other plug, white to left centre, orange to white centre. Is that correct? (When I look at a standard flat RJ11 to RJ11 flat lead, it is crossed over - side of cable with ridge is uppermost on top on one plug and underneath on the other one).
Mind you, I have never had any success with getting ordinary phone cable in ordinary phone plugs. The connectors never seem to penetrate the inner insulation and find the wire. Maybe I have never got a decent tool and maybe that Maplin's RJ11 one is OK.
Is this the way to go? Is it overkill for the one cable I will ever need to make?
Quote from: Tacitus on Oct 14, 2010, 21:51:39
The fly lead terminates in an RJ11 plug, the body takes a standard BT phone plug.. I plugged mine directly into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate fitted to the main socket.
As I said whether it stops any power surges is impossible to say. I've never fried a router with or without it. :)
The Clarity website says:
"The adaptor block is a one piece RJ11 socket to a UK plug, so either kind of UK ADSL modem lead is catered for, and of course this also means you can fit it either at your line box or at the back of your modem."
I think (looking at their picture), that adaptor is what I would use to plug an RJ11 router cable into the body of the surge protector. If you plugged the surge protector straight into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate and then plugged your router cable into the protector, you would either use that adaptor or else your router cable terminates in a standard BT phone plug?
I have no adsl outlet on my faceplate. The faceplate is not even a split one. The master socket is one of the very, very old, 50mm square single sockets.
Anyway, I would then be plugging a microfilter into the BT socket. Surge protector into the microfilter's RJ11 adsl socket. Phone-plug-to-RJ11-adaptor into the body of the surge protector. RJ11 Cat5e 20m cable into adaptor. Other end of 20m Cat5e RJ11 into router, which would be powered by my UPS.
Then, if the surge protector messes things up, I can just take it out of the circuit and plug the RJ11 cat5e straight into the adsl side of the microfilter.
This is getting a little tricky to keep on top of. ???
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 14, 2010, 20:22:04
The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!
edit to add:
V8.07 covers DG834GT/DG834NB/DG834PNB
I downloaded and tried v8.07.
I get "error: connection establishment failed. There is no server running on the given port (or won't answer)"
I am using the software's default of port 23. I have no idea why they use that port, what port I should change it to nor whether I should tell the router to allow it to use port 23, and if so, how to do that, nor if it will work even if it connects. My router is plain DG834, not GT, NB or PNB. Running firmware V5.01.16.
Any suggestions please?
And I thought I was asking a simple question on surge protection :o
edit:
I have just found I can set it to do alternative telnet via port 80, whatever that means. Anyway, it now finds the router and displays standard stuff but not bitloading:
(http://www.pbase.com/claypaws/image/129422719/original.jpg)
You can get a 20m RJ11 HERE (http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=109)
Quote from: Ted on Oct 15, 2010, 08:28:59
You can get a 20m RJ11 HERE (http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=109)
Is it Cat5e?
I had a computer rendered useless by lightning coming down the phone line, just heard a loud crack. :eek4:
Cost me a new motherboard.
Have a UPS now, and I'm a bit less lax about thunder and lightning. :thumb:
Armadillo,
The cable you link to is 4 pair Cat5e and you will have problems terminating that in an RJ11 (diameter may be too great).
So, give Maplin a miss for the cable and call FS Cables 01727 840841 and from them you will get Cat5 2 pair at 23p per metre - yes twenty three pence! But their minimum order is normally 100M but try a bit of negotiation! Their part number is C52HR or C52EHR http://www.fscables.com/dat-cat.php You can then sell it on to others here if they need a length!
The connector will have 4 pins in positions 2,3,4,5 with 1 & 6 blank - commonly called a 6P4C (6 pole 4 conductor).
Make the cable with the following at each end - which ensures that you use a twisted pair for the signal and NOT a spilt pair.
2 - Orange
3 - Blue
4 - White/Blue
5 - White/Orange
A lot of modern modems will auto detect inner/outer pair so there should be no need to swap around but you may find that you need to do change one end to:
2 - Blue
3 - Orange
4 - White/Orange
5 - White/Blue
But try the straight through first.
The tool: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99612&C=SO&U=strat15 from Maplin is reasonable, or http://www.screwfix.com/prods/22799/Electrical-Supplies/Data-Networking/Tools/RJ45-Cut-Crimp-Strip-Tools is a better one but more expensive.
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 15, 2010, 09:56:35
Is it Cat5e?
I believe these cables are constructed to cat5e standards, the Pro+ has a foil shield but I don't think the 20m Pro cable has it.
Quote from: Ted on Oct 15, 2010, 10:32:26
I believe these cables are constructed to cat5e standards, the Pro+ has a foil shield but I don't think the 20m Pro cable has it.
If it is then it will save the hassle of making one - it would be wise for Armadillo to check with ADSL Nation first though.
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 15, 2010, 10:39:57
If it is then it will save the hassle of making one - it would be wise for Armadillo to check with ADSL Nation first though.
I've emailed them for confirmation. It mentions on one of the cables, but not others.
Quote from: Ted on Oct 15, 2010, 11:01:15
I've emailed them for confirmation. It mentions on one of the cables, but not others.
Ted, let us know the answer, it will save me time occasionally.
I had a lightening strike on my first PC a few years back, i had no surge protection at all. The strike took out my house phone, and damaged the motherboard and modem, luckily pc was still under warranty and they repaired it, also replaced the hard drive, don't know if the strike damaged that though. I haven't gone down the router route yet but my current modem goes through the surge protector. :fingers:
Had a dial-up modem taken out by a lightning strike but thankfully my PC was ok.
Polchraine, thank you so much for a brilliant explanation of what cable to use and how to connect it. Absolute clarity and I am really grateful to you for taking the trouble to set it out. I did not know that 2 pair Cat5e even existed, never having seen it on any of the sites I had looked on.
The short RJ11 flat router cable supplied with the router has the colours in the same sequence at each end so I would imagine your suggestion to try your first method of connection is exactly what I will need to do.
But it would make sense for me to await the reply to Ted's email to ADSL Nation before I start buying cable, connectors and a tool just to make one cable up. The 20m cable he links looks ideal if it is Cat5e. Would it be insulting them to check that it has been wired as twisted pairs, as you describe? Or should we just assume that they know what they are doing and would definitely have wired it like that? I mean, you wouldn't ask a surgeon if he had used the correct suture stitch!
If I do end up having to buy a tool, what would you think to
this tool (https://www.datalinkcabling.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=247&page=)
and
RJ11 connectors (https://www.datalinkcabling.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=432&page=) ?
Quote from: Ted on Oct 15, 2010, 08:28:59
You can get a 20m RJ11 HERE (http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=109)
Thank you Ted. That looks ideal if they confirm that it is Cat5e. Thank you for emailing them. As I mentioned to Polchraine, I suppose it would insult them to ask if they have wired as twisted pairs. Also, if the colour sequence is the same at each end plug.
I would guess the wiring would be appropriate. After all, they are selling these things specifically for connecting router/modems.
I shall wait for your report of their email reply before I buy. If they cannot confirm, I shall go down Polchraine's beautifully explained, but more fiddly and costly route.
Quote from: trophymick on Oct 15, 2010, 10:04:37
I had a computer rendered useless by lightning coming down the phone line, just heard a loud crack. :eek4:
Cost me a new motherboard.
I had a motherboard destroyed when I pulled a USB connector out as the PC was booting. Might have been coincidence. Sourced a used motherboard of same type and rebuilt the PC but it has made me very wary of things that can fry motherboards.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 15, 2010, 20:08:42
Thank you Ted. That looks ideal if they confirm that it is Cat5e. Thank you for emailing them. As I mentioned to Polchraine, I suppose it would insult them to ask if they have wired as twisted pairs. Also, if the colour sequence is the same at each end plug.
I would guess the wiring would be appropriate. After all, they are selling these things specifically for connecting router/modems.
I shall wait for your report of their email reply before I buy. If they cannot confirm, I shall go down Polchraine's beautifully explained, but more fiddly and costly route.
I got a reply and it is only the Pro + that has a foil shield, They forgot to confirm if they were cat5e, so I've asked again. They did say that they were out of stock of the 20m cables, I've asked when they are likely to be back in.
It does say on one of the cables that they are cat5e standard, so I'm inclined to think they all are. I actually have a 10m Pro+ which is in use at the moment. I'll check out the pin orientation tomorrow.
Still awaiting their reply, if I don't hear before Monday, I'll give them a quick call.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 15, 2010, 19:59:19
Polchraine, thank you so much for a brilliant explanation of what cable to use and how to connect it. Absolute clarity and I am really grateful to you for taking the trouble to set it out. I did not know that 2 pair Cat5e even existed, never having seen it on any of the sites I had looked on.
The short RJ11 flat router cable supplied with the router has the colours in the same sequence at each end so I would imagine your suggestion to try your first method of connection is exactly what I will need to do.
But it would make sense for me to await the reply to Ted's email to ADSL Nation before I start buying cable, connectors and a tool just to make one cable up. The 20m cable he links looks ideal if it is Cat5e. Would it be insulting them to check that it has been wired as twisted pairs, as you describe? Or should we just assume that they know what they are doing and would definitely have wired it like that? I mean, you wouldn't ask a surgeon if he had used the correct suture stitch!
If I do end up having to buy a tool, what would you think to
this tool (https://www.datalinkcabling.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=247&page=)
and
RJ11 connectors (https://www.datalinkcabling.co.uk/detail.aspx?id=432&page=) ?
That tool looks fine - ratchet ones are always better as they ensure you get the right level of compression. The connectors will be OK too - 50 of them gives you te chance to make a mistake or two! It always takes a little practice getting the first ones right.
Quote from: Ted on Oct 15, 2010, 22:27:37
I got a reply and it is only the Pro + that has a foil shield, They forgot to confirm if they were cat5e, so I've asked again. They did say that they were out of stock of the 20m cables, I've asked when they are likely to be back in.
It does say on one of the cables that they are cat5e standard, so I'm inclined to think they all are. I actually have a 10m Pro+ which is in use at the moment. I'll check out the pin orientation tomorrow.
Still awaiting their reply, if I don't hear before Monday, I'll give them a quick call.
Thank you Ted. I just tried to check the adslnation site to see if they have 20m Pro+ but the site is down. Anyway, if you use the foil shield, do you need to earth the shield, and if so, what is the best and safest way?
Anyway, I would be happy with the unshielded one probably. I would take whatever they have in stock. I am not having much luck with stock. I emailed Clarity to ask about the out of stock surge protector that Tacitus linked to. I got an auto reply saying they are very busy and may take some time to reply.
So it looks like I am awaiting an out of stock surge protector and an out of stock cable.
As soon as adslnation give you confirmation of Cat5e and stock position, I shall order from them. Polchraine's cable making looks rather fun though so I won't mind if I have to do it that way.
I'll await further news from you. Thank you again for being generous with your time.
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 15, 2010, 23:30:55
That tool looks fine - ratchet ones are always better as they ensure you get the right level of compression. The connectors will be OK too - 50 of them gives you te chance to make a mistake or two! It always takes a little practice getting the first ones right.
Ah good. Yes, I was planning to try two or three plugs as practice and cut them off again. Was also going to make up a short one to confirm that it correctly makes the connection and does not hammer SNR margin. Then I would make and try the long one.
This sounds like a silly question. But those ratchet tools do actually do the business of forcing the gold connectors through the coloured insulation, don't they? I mean, they do more than just crimp the cable retainer.
I shall see what Ted comes with from ADSL Nation.
It is really great to meet such helpful people. I give a lot of advice on photography forums so it makes a change to be at the receiving end :)
Yes, the tool forces the contacts through the insulation and also crimps the shroud onto the cable.
Have just remembered a company suggested to me for something else:
http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/index.html
Give them a call and see if they can supply one ready made ... RJ11 (6P4C) at each end, straight wired and using Cat5e (2 pair).
You also asked about screened cable - the screening will "reflect" noise and whilst ideal to earth it, it is not essential.
p.s. - Don't see you on the Pentax Forum!
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 16, 2010, 00:35:58
Yes, the tool forces the contacts through the insulation and also crimps the shroud onto the cable.
Thanks. Always best not to assume the obvious!
I'll call run-it-direct on Monday (the website says Mon-Fri) and I'll also ask if they can use screened cable (and all the other detail you gave, for which many thanks). Noise limiting is pretty important as otherwise I am going to hit my sync speed and probably get a million disconnects until it settles down again.
I am on the DP Review forums a lot. Mainly the Fuji DSLR forum. And I call myself Claypaws there, not armadillo. I am armadillo on Think Broadband!
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 16, 2010, 01:16:33
I'll call run-it-direct on Monday (the website says Mon-Fri)
Also just found another source of a ready made cable that they specifically say is Cat5.
Cat5e at Cables2U (http://www.cables2u.co.uk/very-long-rj11-adsl-broadband-modem-cable-high-specification-p-907.html)
They're Monday to Friday too.
I am amazed how difficult it is to find these things.
Would be interested to hear if this has any positive effect as might consider replacing the one on mine.
Quote from: pctech on Oct 16, 2010, 17:01:17
Would be interested to hear if this has any positive effect as might consider replacing the one on mine.
Once I have a cable, I will feed back results to this thread on the sync and throughput achieved, both with and without surge protection.
I don't know how much difference it would make with a short cable. But since I want to connect a 20m cable, an ordinary phone or modem cable is hopeless.
The pin orientation is identical both ends of the cable, with pins facing you it's Black, Red, Green, Yellow from left to right.
No answer from them yet, I'll give them a bell, Monday.
There's no need to earth the foil shield, in fact there's no way, it's all sealed up, Just plug and go.
Quote from: Ted on Oct 16, 2010, 18:37:44
The pin orientation is identical both ends of the cable, with pins facing you it's Black, Red, Green, Yellow from left to right.
That colour coding looks suspiciously like it is plain parallel modem/router cable rather than twisted pair Cat5e (not that I am an expert all of a sudden!). Black, Red, Green, Yellow is exactly what my plain 2m flat router cable has at the ends.
I would have expected something with pairing of somewhat fancy colour codes, like Polchraine described
here (http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=22544.msg542275#msg542275)
The one I linked to
http://www.cables2u.co.uk/very-long-rj11-adsl-broadband-modem-cable-high-specification-p-907.html
has a nice big picture
(http://www.cables2u.co.uk/images/products/Black_rj11.jpg)
That looks much more believable for something which should have the inner connectors on one twisted pair and the outers on another twisted pair of a Cat5e cable. What would you think?
QuoteNo answer from them yet, I'll give them a bell, Monday.
Thank you. I really appreciate the trouble you are taking on my behalf. I shall wait to contact my above linked one until I "hear" from you.
QuoteThere's no need to earth the foil shield, in fact there's no way, it's all sealed up, Just plug and go.
Thanks. I suppose it is more obvious when the cable is in your hand!
I wonder if they are using straight untwisted, unpaired cable in their screened leads and twisted pair Cat5e in the unscreened ones.
I would expect (from my rapidly cluttering and rookie brain) that screened twisted pair Cat5e would have something like Cat5e FTP or Cat5e STP printed on it and unscreened something like Cat5e UTP as well as a more convincing colour scheme. No doubt you or someone else can tell me that is wrong :)
I don't think the colour has any bearing on whether it is twisted or not. Although the web site is down it definately states "High Quality, twisted pairs" The cable is round and almost as thick as a Cat5 cable despite only having two pairs instead of four. The wording on the sheathing is "www.adslnation.com-Pro+High Performance DSL cable".
To be honest the colour scheme on your picture looks a little strange to me, inner pair Red\White and outer pair green\green. Seems odd to have a pair the same colour, but who knows :dunno:
*Stop press* just found these http://www.itm-components.co.uk/product602.html they seem to tick all the right boxes.
I agree the colour on the picture does not look quite right. I reckoned that what looks like green/green is probably green-white/white-green and the red/white is probably red-white/white-red. If the insulation is oriented unfavourably for viewing, one of the stripe colours can all but disappear from view.
Your latest stop press link does seem to tick the right boxes (though I wish they would specifically say twisted pairs). The only slight problem is length. 50ft is just over 15m (15m is 49ft). I might get away with that rather than my preferred 20m. At present, the LAN cable I have between the router and the PC is 15m and I would route the new cable in exactly the same path. The router just goes to the opposite end of the path from where it is now so as to sit next to the PC instead of next to the BT socket. 20m would give me a bit more leeway to route the cable more neatly and would be ideal. But I can probably manage with 50ft. 100ft is definitely too long. If your adslnation 20m pro one says twisted on its (down) website and it is shielded, that would probably be ideal if they tell you it is cat5e too (especially if it is not out of stock!). Round and nearly as thick as a LAN cable sounds promising too.
While checking out a link to a completely different cable for Ravenheart in his thread on surge protectors, I fell over yet another cat5e RJ11 cable here
http://www.kenable.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=23_107&products_id=1166
not shielded but otherwise looks right.
I hope to actually buy one of these proliferating choices of cable on Monday. It will be interesting to try using it after all this investigation and help.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 16, 2010, 23:30:56
I agree the colour on the picture does not look quite right. I reckoned that what looks like green/green is probably green-white/white-green and the red/white is probably red-white/white-red. If the insulation is oriented unfavourably for viewing, one of the stripe colours can all but disappear from view.
I have another cable, a Belkin double shielded which is wired *2345* *5432* completely backwards, using Blue\Orange pairs ??? How strange it that!
Quote
Your latest stop press link does seem to tick the right boxes (though I wish they would specifically say twisted pairs).
A Cat5\e is defined not by "if" it is twisted, but rather by "how many" twists per inch it has. So I wouldn't bother too much if it doesn't specifically say TP.
Quote
The only slight problem is length.
Doh! It's Feet not Metres, my bad. I'd looked at so many cables it went over my head.
Adslnation still down! Let's see what they say tomorrow.
Armadillo,
Am just catching up ... Have been to Los Angeles and back this weekend!
The Cables2U does not look like Cat5e but the Kenable one does.
Ted - You mention twists per inch, you may already know, but for the benefit for all, in Cat5/5e/6 &c the twist rate for each pair is actually different. Try stripping down a metre of Cat5e and count the twist on the Blue, Brown, Green and Orange pairs.
Quote from: Ted on Oct 17, 2010, 10:05:10
I have another cable, a Belkin double shielded which is wired *2345* *5432* completely backwards, using Blue\Orange pairs ??? How strange it that!
Isn't that what you get if you keep the cable absolutely flat, no twists, so that whatever writing is on the cable is always on the same side; and then put both plugs face up? Similarly with a phone male to phone male. You have to put a half twist in to avoid the backwards wiring. I really had to think about that when trying to wire a BT male to BT male! Not sure why they used blue/orange for both pairs though ???
QuoteA Cat5\e is defined not by "if" it is twisted, but rather by "how many" twists per inch it has. So I wouldn't bother too much if it doesn't specifically say TP.
That is exactly the kind of reassurance I was looking for. Thank you. I think I failed to find the full definition of Cat5e because the one I read did not mention that.
QuoteDoh! It's Feet not Metres, my bad. I'd looked at so many cables it went over my head.
I feel much the same. I think I shall lose my sanity and be found wandering down the street screaming "Twisted pairs, twisted pairs". Never looked at so many cables in my whole life.
Quote
Adslnation still down! Let's see what they say tomorrow.
Great, thanks.
I started trying another experiment today, which I shall continue tomorrow. Thinking outside the box again. I want to try leaving the router where it is (next to the BT master socket) but plugging its little power adapter in 20m away at the UPS. Then cutting the low voltage wire (not while it is connected!) and extending that with 20m of standard electrical two core cable back to where the router is. If that works, I will still want a short Cat5e shielded cable to replace the short RJ11/RJ11 patch cable between filter and router. If it does not work, I will move the router to the UPS and I will need the long 20m one to connect the BT socket to the router. So either way, I will need one of those nice cables.
The reason for preferring to carry the LV 20m rather than the adsl signal 20m is that the 20m LAN connection from router to PC is working really well and I think that a short connection from router to master socket is always going to be the best alternative.
I tried laying 17m of bell wire today, though I did not need to get as far as connecting the router's LV through it. I established that bell wire is not thick enough by connecting a torch battery to a torch bulb via the 20m bell wire. The voltage drop was obvious to the eye. But that stuff only has 0.5mm solid conductors. If I use something like the weight of flex you would use to wire a table lamp, it should have conductors say, 1.5mm dia and hence 9times the cross section and 1/9 the resistance. Then 18m of it would have the same resistance as 2m of bell wire, which is about what there is attached to the adapter that Belkin supply.
Anyway, I think it is well worth a try. I should be able to judge with the torch bulb that the connection is good before I go and cut the LV adapter cable. I will of course use a cable with coloured conductors or coloured insulation so I can make sure I get the polarity correct. I do not care if it invalidates the warranty on the router. They are cheap as chips anyway.
By the way, these cables are really awkward to put in. I have to take them up through little holes I made in the corner of the ceiling coving and then up through the plaster board and into the loft and across. I can use the bell wire to pull through the thicker wiring I am going to try (if the torch test shows it is worth it). If the torch test shows it will not work, then I use the bell wire to pull the Cat5e cable through. I have laminate floors, not carpet, and there is no way I am lifting that stuff and wiring under the floorboards! If I went all round the room perimeters and over door frames instead, I would need 35m. The things we do for a good internet connection! :o
Fig 1 shows how I have it now
(http://stepscape.www.idnet.com/default/PC%20router.jpg)
Router in living room is nearly 20m from PC and UPS in office, measured along path of LAN cable through loft.
Fig 2 shows how I hope to get away with extending the LV for the router.
If I do this, I will use a short Cat5e between BT and router.
(http://stepscape.www.idnet.com/default/PC%20router-extend%20power.jpg)
Fig 3 shows what I will do if I need to use the long Cat5e cable.
I would still leave the long LAN cable in so I can use a laptop in the living room.
(http://stepscape.www.idnet.com/default/PC%20router-moved.jpg)
In all cases, I will try Clarity's little surge protector on the BT line, if they get it in stock. Will also try Maplin's surge protected adsl microfilter. (Remember this thread is about surge protection?)
Ah well, it is quite satisfying to draw diagrams in Photoshop! Sad eh?
Welcome back to the UK, Polchraine. I hope you did not lose too much money in LA ;)
Thanks for the additional info on twists. Would never have believed that cables could be so complicated. I am sure the info within this thread will be useful to others too. So, if adslnation proves unsuitable, I can go with Kenable. Good to know.
Though note that the Cables2U link actually states it is Cat5 (without the "e")
http://www.cables2u.co.uk/very-long-rj11-adsl-broadband-modem-cable-high-specification-p-907.html
You might also like to have a look at my latest crazy idea, complete with diagrams, in reply to Ted's post. I might avoid the need for a long Cat5e cable and end up with just a short one. Comments would be very welcome.
What about wiring Figure 2, like this, no need to cut the LV cable and no worries about voltage drop?
Just spoke to Adslnation. They in fact do a 20m Pro+ cable, but they are changing the design to incorporate shielded plugs. Unfortunately they don't expect any stock for six weeks. The unshielded 20m Pro cables are in stock. With regard to cat5e they say " the cables are twisted to provide optimum performance over the frequencies that ADSL runs at"
If it's feasible I'd go with the figure 2 Scheme, it provides UPS for the router and no fear of unwanted interference with a long RJ11. You could even use one of these 20M Cat6 S/FTP (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/20M-Cat6-STP-Shielded-Ethernet-Network-Cable-20-Metre-/170531297709?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item27b47519ad) for the lan cable, may be overkill though ;D
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 17, 2010, 23:39:26
In all cases, I will try Clarity's little surge protector on the BT line, if they get it in stock. Will also try Maplin's surge protected adsl microfilter. (Remember this thread is about surge protection?)
I don't know if it's any help but Clarity can supply
white Cat5e cable. if you need to wire round the skirting board this can be useful. AFAIK they are the only ones who supply it.
Regarding the surge protector it might be worth sending them an email to see when they might have some in stock.
Rather than extending the low voltage side, whay not make an extension lead for the mains voltage side?
Get some 0.75mm flex and make an extension lead (single socket) ensuring you fuse the plug at 1 Amp and mark it appropriately? But only if your are confident/competent.
You also mention using 1.5mm - again what about buying an extension lead which will probably use the same diameter flex?
Quote from: Ted on Oct 18, 2010, 00:29:28
What about wiring Figure 2, like this, no need to cut the LV cable and no worries about voltage drop?
Yes, I think that is probably what I will do. Polchraine also says much the same a few posts further down. My main reason for ruling it out when I was considering options was that I thought it might be illegal to terminate a mains cable with a 13 amp socket if it is not connected directly to the ring main. However, I am perfectly confident to do it.
It will also put the mains extension parallel to the LAN cable for the part of the route where the cables feed up through the ceiling. I can route apart once in the loft space.
Cat6 shielded is probably still overkill for the LAN cable though :laugh:
Thanks Polchraine,
My main reason for ruling it out when I was considering options was that I thought it might be illegal to terminate a mains cable with a 13 amp socket if it is not connected directly to the ring main. However, I am perfectly confident to do it. Now that you and Ted are both suggesting the same thing, I think I will do it. I obsessively label all my plugs and connectors anyway :D .75mm flex (given that it will be carrying less than 1amp) is probably a better option than buying an extension lead too. A 3 core cable with 1.5mm conductors will be thick enough that I may have problems getting it through the holes between ceiling and roof space, which I would rather not make any bigger than they already are!
I am off to look at mains cable now. 3 core 5 amp mains cable should be perfect. At least that is relatively easy to find!
Quote from: Ted on Oct 18, 2010, 09:43:47
Just spoke to Adslnation.
Thanks Ted. I am really grateful for that. Seems like they are using something that is not Cat5e but which they reckon is as good or better. I am not competent to judge whether that is good or not. But a projected 6 week stock lag might well become a 6 month stock lag, knowing how these estimates pan out!
I think I am going to go for extending the mains supply from the UPS instead.
I will still need a short Cat5e RJ11 to RJ11 though. Less of a problem and could easily use unshielded.
Quote from: Tacitus on Oct 18, 2010, 09:50:06
I don't know if it's any help but Clarity can supply white Cat5e cable. if you need to wire round the skirting board this can be useful. AFAIK they are the only ones who supply it.
Thanks for that. It would be useful if I go round the skirting board. I think though that I am now going with the option of extending the HV from UPS to router.
Quote
Regarding the surge protector it might be worth sending them an email to see when they might have some in stock.
I did but just got an auto reply saying they will take a long time to reply to technical query emails. I did ask about exactly what the little adapter is. So perhaps I shall send another one asking strictly about stock and nothing else. I may get a quicker reply.
Quote
I think I am going to go for extending the mains supply from the UPS instead.
I really think that would be the best idea. Solves a lot of issues :thumb:
Quote
I will still need a short Cat5e RJ11 to RJ11 though. Less of a problem and could easily use unshielded.
Adslnation do a 0.5m Pro+ RJ11 that would fit the bill perfectly. Please let us know how you get on.
Cable: http://www.screwfix.com/prods/72642/Electrical-Supplies/Cable/Flex/3-Core/Tower-3-Core-Reel-Flexible-Cable-White-0-75mm-x-50m and at that price it is good value. I would normally expect a 50m reel to be around £30.
No problems in making an extension lead with it - get a single trailing socket (not a twin as someone may decide to use the other one!) and don't forget a 1A fuse.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 17, 2010, 23:46:17
Welcome back to the UK, Polchraine. I hope you did not lose too much money in LA ;)
Were you thinking of Las Vegas?
Fortunately/unfortunately Los Angeles was for an meeting regarding some urgent customer issues. Fly out, land, immigration, meeting, meal, fly back! No time for anything else this time - just a bag with laptop, clean shirt and toothbrush.
Doesn't the customer have a phone? ;D
Hi Polchraine
I actually came back home today with 20m of 2 core 3A mains cable (0.5 sq mm conductors) from Maplins (who are a lot more expensive (85p per metre) than Screwfix but convenient to get to). Having unplugged the router's adapter to check, it only needs 2 core - the "earth" pin is plastic, as they are on all my other power supplies. I am sure that current rating is fine. Even 0.5A at 240V would be 120W and I am sure the router does not use that much! I have run it through the loft which was the tricky part. I would not have got anything thicker through the hole, along with the LAN cable. I got a single trailing socket but did not find 1A fuses to fit a plug. Only 1A fuses they have are the little glass ones. So I got 3A. That would stop anyone getting any serious power out of the socket. Anyway, I am the only one here! And it will be well labelled, both plug and socket and up in the loft too. I shall connect it up tomorrow. I do not want to unplug and reconnect the router now as the noise margin has just dropped over 1dB. It was 9.8 this morning and is now 8.4. I would end up with a lower sync at that. I also got a surge protected adsl filter that plugs direct into the BT socket and has 2 phone outputs and one adsl output. If it works, it will be neat. I shall report back!
[ed for typo and clarity]
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 18, 2010, 13:01:15
Were you thinking of Las Vegas?
Shucks, yes. I knew something was not quite right :blush:
As Simon says, maybe they should have a phone, or even a webcam.
Thanks Ted
I shall order Adslnation's 0.5m Pro+ RJ11 as soon as I have tested that everything is OK with the UPS mains extension. I will connect it up tomorrow. I certainly shall report back on progress!
3A fuse should be fine ... I suggested 1A as belt and braces!
I have an advantage with Screwfix - daughter works for them, so 20% extra discount and personal delivery!
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 18, 2010, 18:32:06
I actually came back home today with 20mm of 2 core 3A mains cable ...
And I hope you bought more than 20mm !
Timing the change over is an art! I can get a stable (3dB noise at initial sync) connection where the SNR margin will drop to 0 dB or just below and rise to 6dB during a 24 hour period. If I mistime it and get the sync too high the SNR drops to far and I get an auto resync with the loss of 1Mb, or if I sync too low I loose 500k. Currently I have been synced for 6 weeks - ...
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 18, 2010, 18:43:56
3A fuse should be fine ... I suggested 1A as belt and braces!
I tend to do belt and braces too.
Quote
I have an advantage with Screwfix - daughter works for them, so 20% extra discount and personal delivery!
Useful!
QuoteAnd I hope you bought more than 20mm !
LOL. That was one of the typos I just corrected in my edit!
Quote
Timing the change over is an art! I can get a stable (3dB noise at initial sync) connection where the SNR margin will drop to 0 dB or just below and rise to 6dB during a 24 hour period. If I mistime it and get the sync too high the SNR drops to far and I get an auto resync with the loss of 1Mb, or if I sync too low I loose 500k. Currently I have been synced for 6 weeks - ...
BT appear to have set a 9dB target noise margin on my line because I always sync at whatever sync speed will give 9dB. Once synced (and have been at 7616 for several days), margin varies from just over 6dB to just under 10dB. Morning seems to be the safest time. I shall just check that margin is nicely over 9dB and then power off and connect my surge protected filter. If that drops the sync significantly, I can power off again and reconnect without it and hope that I will not lose anything. And once I have a good sync, I shall then leave it alone for 3 days. I did a BT speed test at about 1 am, I got this
Download speed achieved during the test was - 5962 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7616 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6500 Kbps
It would be a shame to spoil it! BTW, download speed was higher on other speed testers and on actual proper downloads.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/994430602.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 18, 2010, 19:00:41
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 18, 2010, 18:43:56
3A fuse should be fine ... I suggested 1A as belt and braces!
I tend to do belt and braces too.
Actually, its more like worn out knicker elastic - a little bit to much and it fails!
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 19, 2010, 09:19:59
Actually, its more like worn out knicker elastic - a little bit to much and it fails!
LOL
I can now report some excellent results.
I powered down the router and connected it, my phone and an extension through the new surge protected adsl filter that I bought from Maplin yesterday (details below). Then I connected power to the router via the extension cable through my loft, plugged into my UPS (which has integral power surge protection).
Result - full surge protection to both power and telecom with zero impact on sync speed, noise, attenuation or throughput.
Immediately before the alteration (i.e. telecom via ordinary adsl filters without surge protection, and router power via local surge protector), I recorded all the router stats and did a speedtest.net speedtest. After the alteration, I repeated those.
In both cases, I got
Attenuation 32dB
Sync 7616
Noise margin 9.5dB
Speedtest 6.4Mbps
So this Maplin adsl surge protector seems to have zero impact on performance, unlike the Belkin one in a surge protected power supply, which reduced my sync by 1600kbps.
The router is still connected to the surge protector via a plain RJ11 to RJ11 flat cable about 2m long. I have ordered a 0.5m Pro+ Cat5 shielded connector from AdslNation (thanks Ted!). When it arrives, I shall see if replacing the flat cable makes any difference and report my findings.
Here are details of the Maplin surge protector:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=97672
and I took some photos before I connected it up
(http://stepscape.www.idnet.com/default/surgeprot-composite.jpg)
I emailed Clarity to ask about stock on their surge protector but have had no reply after 24 hours. Looks as though the Maplin's one is perfect though. Of course, I have not tested how good the surge protection is!
Good result! We'll try to arrange a thunderstorm for you. ;)
Simon, no, no, no :eek4:
:evil:
Sounds promising ...
I found that using the Cat5e cable from phone socket to router gave me an extra dB or so of noise margin - it runs past the ISDN NTE, a 4 line ISDN PBX and alarm control panel, so plenty of noise around.
An extra dB could be useful. I don't think my environment is quite as noisy as yours but you never know. I should find out soon; adslnation sent me an email this afternoon to say it has been despatched. Should be here Thursday/Friday, I suppose. I was planning to stay connected for a few days before powering off to fit it anyway.
Oh dear once again i am going to be the bearer of questionability.
point 1.)With stats like that you must live fairly close to the exchange.
2.)The main BT/Virgin point that bt use already has surge protection on it.
Think you may have wasted your money on 2 counts, one your so close to exchange only a real severe strike direct to cable/exchange or house (or very very close) would cause a problem, any other "near" strikes would be dealt with by the surge arrestor's at either the exchange in your main BT point or both.
sorry i do however agree mains should be filtered but unless your router is a long way from the main BT point i see no point, and even then you would have to have the surge arrestor next to your router.
Also i wonder how good it is on a very "borderline" adsl connection's? I may buy one just to test (i can incorparate it into my faceplate testing).
G7PKF
Hi g7pjkf
Yes, I am about 2km from the exchange.
I did not know that the main BT point has surge protection though Rik did mention that a lightning strike on or near the exchange could cause a surge to be transmitted down the phone line.
However, I think that is not quite the point. I may have spent some money unnecessarily, in technical terms, but I have not wasted it.
In considering whether to attempt to avoid an undesirable event (usually wrongly called a risk), one considers
(a) The probability of the occurrence of the event
(b) the cost, financial or otherwise, of taking action to reduce either the probability or the consequences.
(c) the consequences of the event, should it occur, including the emotional cost of having failed to take action.
In this case, as for (a) the probability may well be very small.
(b) the cost of a surge protector was a mere £15, not a life changing sum. And this surge protector has no impact on the performance of my internet connection.
But (c), the consequences, should the event occur, are rather nasty - a fried PC motherboard, which I have experienced before through a different cause, and the regret for not having spent the £15, whether or not that spend would have prevented the event.
If the cost of a surge protector were, say, £1500 rather than £15, or if using a surge protector significantly impacted on the performance of the line, I can imagine regretting spending the money. There may indeed be an impact on a borderline connection and one would have to take that into account in deciding whether to use surge protection. But with £15 and no performance impact, I cannot imagine looking back, in five years, after no surges, and regretting having "wasted" that £15.
Hence I think it is a no brainer, at least for me; buy the surge protector.
Most of this thread has in fact been devoted to the best means of getting the router onto the UPS. The router, by the way, is about 6 inches away from the BT master socket!
If you do decide to buy one and test it, it will be interesting to see if your results bear out mine, namely no impact on the performance of the connection (assuming you buy the Maplins one I mentioned - other protectors I had tried had a large impact on service quality. Those were all part of surge protector devices which I had, or would have, bought, regardless of any desire to protect the telecom connection, and so incurred no additional cost).
All noted.
Yes inside every BT master socket there is some form of lightning protection it is either a neon bulb (used apx 20years ago) or a component that has a very very small gap the idea being the spark will jump the gap to earth. these type of surge protectors offer quite a good level of protection (suprisingly) and will work over and over-genrally.
3rd party devices have the added benefit of some indication if the surge protection has failed.
third party surge protectors genrally only work once, then either you replace the arestors (expensive equipment allows this), you throw it away and buy a new one or if it has a lifetime warrenty you return it.
I can assure you if you have either a direct strike to the BT line or your house nothing on this earth will protect your equipment.
A friend had a lightning strike hit his neighbour 6 doors away, it took out a bout half his roof, it took out every electrical appliance that was plugged in (even if it was switched off) for the whole row of terraced houses.
Someone i work with has his computer connected via surge and ups a tree in the field behind his house apx 50metres away got hit he lost 2 televisions, washing machine all his computer gear cordless phone and surprisingly his kettle (even his insurance questioned that).
I will get one of these to test as my line is apx 4Km long with an attenuation of 48-50dB and i get masses of interferance as the phone lines to the village run over a bridge apx 2metres away from the euston-MK main line.
£15 seems a resonable amount to spend and in a way i agree with you, if the whole lot frys now you have taken every precaution.
Oh and best you did use 3 core, just in case wife/girly plugs a nice fancy metal light in :) additionally if you did use a 2 way trailing plug get a standard plug and plug it in the other point and then tape or tye wrap them solid. then wife/girly cannot plug hover in and blow fuse!
From the Clarity site
http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product.php?productid=16152&cat=251&page=1
Quote
"But BT master sockets usually have a surge protector in them"
Yes they do. But it's only there to provide a basic protection for standard telephone equipment. Modems, and especially ADSL modems are a LOT more sensitive to sudden spikes than phones! Look at it this way; ask all the people with surge-fried modems in the last two decades whether the master's little surge arrestor was any use for sensitive comms equipment...
My BT master socket was installed at least 30 years ago, when there were no modems or routers and phones were bakelite things built like bricks.
Yes, I know nothing will protect against a direct (or even nearby) lightning strike. Your horror stories (funny about the kettle) go to emphasise an important lesson. The answer is definitely to disconnect and unplug everything if a thunderstorm occurs or is predicted when you around to do so or if you are going away during the thunderstorm season. The surge protector is more for the smaller surges or things that happen when you are out. At least then, you have done everything you reasonably could for £15, as we agree. The rest is down to fate or the gods or whatever you live by.
I did use a single trailing socket, not a double, and it is clearly labelled. Never had a wife and the delicious days of girly are, I suspect, alas behind me. Such visitors as I do have are not in the habit of plugging random appliances into my sockets so I should be safe enough with 2 core!
A main railway line is an unfortunate source of interference :(
I used to work in the security industry and have just found what must be one of the best line surge arrestor's avalible at the time.
don't have camera to hand but when i do my faceplate review i will add it, It even has an earth lead connection :)
Any protection is better than none.
And your never too old to get a girly.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 19, 2010, 12:28:05
The router is still connected to the surge protector via a plain RJ11 to RJ11 flat cable about 2m long. I have ordered a 0.5m Pro+ Cat5 shielded connector from AdslNation (thanks Ted!). When it arrives, I shall see if replacing the flat cable makes any difference and report my findings.
I said I would report findings on the effect of replacing the 2m flat cable with the 0.5m shielded Cat5e. I have now had several days to evaluate the results. I checked noise margin, sync and throughput immediately before powering down and replacing the cable. I also compared variability in noise margin between when the old cable was in place and the new one. I repeated the swapover several times.
I can confidently report that there is no difference between the two cables, either in the noise margin or the variability of the noise margin. I am continuing to use the new one anyway because it is white and shorter and neater. But, in terms of performance, it has made no difference.
I am sure that, over a long cable route, say 10m or more, it would make a difference. But over the short one, and given the particular position of my router, it does not. I think it is safe to conclude that such noise as is on my line does not originate from within the vicinity of my router or its cabling. And the variations do not correlate with electrical activity, such as heating pumps, fridges, freezers etc in my house.
For anyone joining this thread anew, without having read the whole thing (forgiven!), I do not have a problem with noise.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 26, 2010, 21:49:39
I am sure that, over a long cable route, say 10m or more, it would make a difference. But over the short one, and given the particular position of my router, it does not. I think it is safe to conclude that such noise as is on my line does not originate from within the vicinity of my router or its cabling. And the variations do not correlate with electrical activity, such as heating pumps, fridges, freezers etc in my house.
I'd agree with that, and at least you know that your set up is as good as you can get it, nice and tidy too. :thumb:
Just finished changing my own set up. Router now by the NT5e with 4x cat6 cables (2x20m 2x15m) running to the rooms upstairs. Was quite a bit of work, but I'm happier with it now.
Anybody fancy an Adslnation 10m RJ11 Pro+ ?
Quote from: Ted on Oct 26, 2010, 22:52:50
I'd agree with that, and at least you know that your set up is as good as you can get it, nice and tidy too. :thumb:
Thanks Ted. Yes. I once had a boss who used to say: "And if my best is not good enough, sack me!"
Your setup must have involved some little holes in the ceiling too. I felt like a vandal drilling holes in the corners of mine. There is an element of satisfaction in putting in the work and knowing you have done the best you could do.
Thank you for all your help. I have learned more about cables and filters than I ever dreamed existed. And that is no doubt a very insignificant proportion of what I still have to learn.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 26, 2010, 21:49:39
I said I would report findings on the effect of replacing the 2m flat cable with the 0.5m shielded Cat5e. I have now had several days to evaluate the results. I checked noise margin, sync and throughput immediately before powering down and replacing the cable. I also compared variability in noise margin between when the old cable was in place and the new one. I repeated the swapover several times.
I can confidently report that there is no difference between the two cables, either in the noise margin or the variability of the noise margin. I am continuing to use the new one anyway because it is white and shorter and neater. But, in terms of performance, it has made no difference.
I am sure that, over a long cable route, say 10m or more, it would make a difference. But over the short one, and given the particular position of my router, it does not. I think it is safe to conclude that such noise as is on my line does not originate from within the vicinity of my router or its cabling. And the variations do not correlate with electrical activity, such as heating pumps, fridges, freezers etc in my house.
For anyone joining this thread anew, without having read the whole thing (forgiven!), I do not have a problem with noise.
Thanks for the update. At least you now know you do have a nice neat set up and your equipment is protected. There will be cases where twisting and shielding does work - my installation for example, where, if I was to install a 2m flat cable I would be well hammered!
I do try to give an update after promising it. I hate it when threads are abandoned in mid air by the OP.
Thank you Polchraine for all your help.
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 27, 2010, 13:25:26
I do try to give an update after promising it. I hate it when threads are abandoned in mid air by the OP.
Thank you Polchraine for all your help.
No problem ... next task is to identify me on another forum that you also visit!
:lol:
Go on, give him a clue. ;)
Quote from: Rik on Oct 27, 2010, 18:16:52
:lol:
Go on, give him a clue. ;)
That would make it too easy! I have found him already so should not be too hard!
;D
Quote from: Polchraine on Oct 27, 2010, 18:14:47
No problem ... next task is to identify me on another forum that you also visit!
Loves heights :thumb:
Quote from: armadillo on Oct 27, 2010, 19:52:19
Loves heights :thumb:
11/10 ... for an excellent reply!