IDNetters Forums

Hi guys,

I have contacted support on this but thought I'd throw it up here as well in case you guys can give me some insight while I wait to hear back.

I had my connection activated on Thursday and everything has appeared to be running properly - sync looks good, transfer rates are as expected and the BT speed tester is showing exactly what it should do.

However, yesterday afternoon and early this morning my router seemed to lose the ability to get to the default gateway.

At these points, the router shows that it is fully connected without any errors. It just stops being able to get to the default gateway (212.xx.xx.xx).

As soon as I reboot the router and the connection is renegotiated everything works as normal.

Is there anything that might suggest what the potential issue is?

My router is a brand new Netgear DG834G v4 although I only bought it recently for this new connection so it isn't time proven as of yet. I can run any diagnostics via telnet if there are stats I should grab during the next failure.

Current connection stats:

ADSL Link Connection Speed     Line Attenuation Noise Margin

Downstream       14962 kbps 25.0 db 6.1 db

Upstream 1152 kbps 11.1 db 6.1 db

Not sure if this is relevant but this morning when I got up and noticed the problem, my downstream sync was a little over 15000kbs and downstream was around 1000kbs.

The connection problems seems to have started yesterday as the router was fine before this and went live on Thursday at 2am ish.

Thanks in advance.

Not using a Netgear at present so terminology will be wrong, there's not a disconnect when idle option set incorrectly?

One other possibility is that the router is in sync, but losing PPP. BT are doing a lot of engineering work, locally and nationally which might cause such a condition.

I have had similar 'symptoms' for the last few days, full sync but unable to access any sites. Have had to disconnect and reconnect, and probably as a result my sync rate has dropped from about 11,000k to 6,000k. I have put it down to BT activity as there seem to have been a few Openreach vans around recently.

Hopefully if it settles for a few days, sync will get back to normal


Steve

There's a massive raft of planned work in connection with 21CN, Flinty. I think I'm down for this coming week.

That's quite interesting. I've recently had a lot of DNS type issues but no loss of sync (in the North London area). I thought I was the only one. A modem reboot sometimes allows me to get to the odd site, perhaps 1 in 10. As Rik says, it could be planned work on the infrastructure.

Is that with multiple DNS settings (IDNet versus Open DNS for example?).

Thanks for the replies guys.

I hope it is only temporary as it's a little unsettling having only just moved over and already having 2 outages. Hoping it's not my router which is at fault, though if some of you have had similar issues recently then maybe it is with BT.

I never lose sync though, just connecting to the default gateway. No problems are noted on the router logs and the connection status states it's connected fine.

Just annoying when it happens over night as it can impact downloads etc.

Have to see how it plays out and will see if support can offer any suggestions specific to my exchange etc.

Just thinking that maybe I could look at writing a script to check the default gateway every 10 minutes. If there is a ping timeout I could then maybe initiate a router reboot if I can find the correct URL to cause this or maybe write a telnet script. Bit of a hack but if it turns out this is just BT maintenance then it would be nice to have a fail safe system in place ... <thinking>. :)

BT and failsafe in one sentence, James? ;) You don't stand a chance against them, my friend, as they have recently and spectacularly demonstrated to Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 07, 2010, 15:08:10
BT and failsafe in one sentence, James? ;) You don't stand a chance against them, my friend, as they have recently and spectacularly demonstrated to Scotland and Northern Ireland.

LMAO.. Ah I'd never attempt to try and win against the fail whale that is BT.. ;)

However, a monitor script which auto reboots my router upon the default gateway being down could be a nice thing to have in place. I could then log when it happens as well..

Just hope this is a BT issue and not something with my kit etc.

Have you got a spare router you could try?

Quote from: Rik on Nov 07, 2010, 15:26:59
Have you got a spare router you could try?

I have but it's a Zoom X6 which is ADSL 2 compatible I think but not recommended. Have to see if this happens again in the next 24 hours.

It's strange that sync is maintained and there are no errors shown in the router logs. It's like it just suddenly loses it's route to the gateway. The IT geek in me wants to be able to do more low level debugging. :)

Loss of PPP is a typical symptom of BT doing 21CN upgrade work. It may not be the case for you, but it is very common.

Quote from: Technical Ben on Nov 07, 2010, 13:26:32
Is that with multiple DNS settings (IDNet versus Open DNS for example?).

I have IDNet DNS settings hard coded into my network settings. It's the only way I can connect.

The Thinkbroadband Ping Monitor still sees my modem. It records the event showing a huge increase in ping and a packet loss spike.

I've just had another of these connection failures - where the router stays synced but can't get to the default gateway.

To fix I just had to go into the basic settings panel on the Netgear D834Gv4 and click 'apply'. This renegotiated the connection and it started working again - no reboot required.

This is quite concerning as I can't afford to lose my Internet connection randomly like this, especially when broadcasting.

When searching I saw mention of some people having this exact issue with Netgears on their O2 connection. O2 apparently said they were working on a fix for it.

It's just finding out where the issue is here. Probably not related but my sync is the highest it's ever been at the moment:

ADSL Link Connection Speed      Line Attenuation Noise Margin

Downstream        15755 kbps 25.0 db 3.0 db

Upstream 1132 kbps 11 db 5.8 db

Although I've noticed that pings seem worse than when I first had the connection activated.

idnet.co.uk - 30ms

I'm sure it was 19ms when I first had the connection turned on.. hmmm.

Downstream Noise margin is set at the minimum for adsl2+, might be worth running routerstats to see what's going on.

Quote from: Steve on Nov 10, 2010, 20:56:21
Downstream Noise margin is set at the minimum for adsl2+, might be worth running routerstats to see what's going on.

Hi Steve,

What should I be looking for with Routerstats? It just monitors the values that the Netgear control panel reports doesn't it?

The noise margin has dropped to 2.9db now.

Is this something I should be concerned about?

Routerstats  just keeps a time related plot of the margin , I was wondering if it was dropping to 0 at any time.

I think it most likely makes more sense that your margin must be fairly stable otherwise the MSAN wouldn't let you run on 3.

Quote from: Steve on Nov 10, 2010, 22:59:04
Routerstats  just keeps a time related plot of the margin , I was wondering if it was dropping to 0 at any time.

I think it most likely makes more sense that your margin must be fairly stable otherwise the MSAN wouldn't let you run on 3.

Thanks Steve - I appreciate your help on this. I'll keep router stats running and see if it sheds any more light.

The problem I'm seeing sounds quite similar to one o2 / be users have faced where routing is suddenly lost but sync is not. There is a technical fix I could apply to my router to test this out. Of course this may not be related at all but it may be worth a test at least:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/o2/3669186-anyone-regularly-losing-routing-2.html?fpart=16

An update regarding the noise margin. I have been running router stats and the noise margin stayed around 6db for most of the day then at about 15:20 ish is dropped right down to about 3.2db. It's been steady since then and is currently at 3.4db.

Not sure what this is saying but thought I'd update you. No routing losses since the last time.

I am tempted to flash the latest DGTeam firmware onto my router to see if that helps.

It's saying that, as it gets dark, your NM drops, James. That's normal, mine's currently at 5.1 from 6.6.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 11, 2010, 19:13:09
It's saying that, as it gets dark, your NM drops, James. That's normal, mine's currently at 5.1 from 6.6.

Does seem quite consistent in that it drops each late afternoon. All good then.

It does look like the issue may be with my router.

Could be, but that drop in NM isn't a sign of any fault, James, just the extra electrical noise that starts as darkness approaches. Wait till Xmas, we're almost certain to get someone being affected by fairy lights.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 11, 2010, 19:17:35
Could be, but that drop in NM isn't a sign of any fault, James, just the extra electrical noise that starts as darkness approaches. Wait till Xmas, we're almost certain to get someone being affected by fairy lights.

Thanks Rik. I didn't necessarily think it was but I was asked to monitor this via routerstats to see what was perhaps going on.

Isn't a drop in a noise margin a good thing though which allows a higher sync or is it the other way around?

Has your sync rate  dropped recently? You seem to have a margin of 6 currently .I wonder yesterday whether it was set at 3 and the MSAN has decided it was too low and upped it to 6.

I suppose it could have been 6 all along but a swing of 3db is not ideal

Quote from: Steve on Nov 11, 2010, 19:21:56
Has your sync rate  dropped recently? You seem to have a margin of 6 currently .I wonder yesterday whether it was set at 3 and the MSAN has decided it was too low and upped it to 6.

I suppose it could have been 6 all along but a swing of 3db is not ideal

Aha I see. It certainly dropped from 6db to 3.2db at around 15:20 or so and has stayed low ever since.

The weird thing is that sync has actually gone up recently - downstream: 15755kbs, upstream: 1132kbs from about 14300kbs downstream.
Although that sync rate has been the same since the last reboot yesterday.

So this kind of noise margin drop could be a sign of potential problems or at least open up the possibility of it being related to my loss of routing every few days?

The only time that the noise margin relates to sync speed is immediately after connection, James. At that point, it tells us the best speed the router could manage for the noise levels around and the target noise margin setting. A lower NM is not a good thing at this time, but lower noise, which provides a higher NM, is.

After that, fluctuations in NM are just showing fluctuations in electrical noise. If the margin has gone up, noise has reduced and vice versa. An NM may, therefore, be at its highest in the morning and lowest through the evening and night hours. Two major sources of noise, and therefore lower NM, are greater propagation of MW radio signals, and greater use of the net as people come home from school or work. This will increase the noise on the line, and reduce the NM.

The use of Routerstats as a diagnostic tells us how much your line fluctuates and shows us a clear time line of the NM and any resyncs forced by it dropping too low.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 11, 2010, 19:28:25
The only time that the noise margin relates to sync speed is immediately after connection, James. At that point, it tells us the best speed the router could manage for the noise levels around and the target noise margin setting. A lower NM is not a good thing at this time, but lower noise, which provides a higher NM, is.

After that, fluctuations in NM are just showing fluctuations in electrical noise. If the margin has gone up, noise has reduced and vice versa. An NM may, therefore, be at its highest in the morning and lowest through the evening and night hours. Two major sources of noise, and therefore lower NM, are greater propagation of MW radio signals, and greater use of the net as people come home from school or work. This will increase the noise on the line, and reduce the NM.

The use of Routerstats as a diagnostic tells us how much your line fluctuates and shows us a clear time line of the NM and any resyncs forced by it dropping too low.

Thanks for that Rik - perfectly explains it. I was confused by how NM worked but now I see that it's relative to the point at which sync was established. So yeah, the drop I've seen is due to increased noise at around the 15:20 point.

I'm trying to remember if my loss of routing incidents have been after this time - I'll keep an eye on it.

Could this kind of increase in noise (3db change in NM) lead to this kind of problem or is it more likely to lead to a loss of sync?

The strange part of this issue is that sync is not lost at all when I lose routing.

Just to add, I've just noticed that the noise margin is now down to 2.6 / 2.7db.

The lower your noise margin drops, James, the higher the noise which your router is trying to pick out the ADSL signal from. Eventually, it reaches a point where it can't and so resyncs.

Loss of routing should be a completely separate issue, but it could be that, as noise increases you are getting packet loss due to a high error count. It's a bit of a grey area.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 11, 2010, 19:40:46
The lower your noise margin drops, James, the higher the noise which your router is trying to pick out the ADSL signal from. Eventually, it reaches a point where it can't and so resyncs.

Loss of routing should be a completely separate issue, but it could be that, as noise increases you are getting packet loss due to a high error count. It's a bit of a grey area.

I can certainly see that there are many factors that could be at play here. Thanks again for the info on NM - it's helping a lot.

I think I will upgrade my router to the custom DGTeam firmware soon and see if that fixes the issue. It is very similar to the issue O2 users have experienced and I heard that the custom firmware had a fix in it for that.
Worth a try anyway. It's also possible to tweak the SNR percentage which might be useful.

I pretty certain on BT adsl2+ you cannot tweak the margin unlike o2 LLU implementation. I note of caution with DGTeam their firmware are getting a little long in the tooth compared to recent Netgear, no harm in trying though.

Quote from: Steve on Nov 11, 2010, 19:49:49
I pretty certain on BT adsl2+ you cannot tweak the margin unlike o2 LLU implementation. I note of caution with DGTeam their firmware are getting a little long in the tooth compared to recent Netgear, no harm in trying though.

Thanks Steve - I'll bear that in mind. I had it in my head that the latest Netgear firmware for the DG834Gv4 was older than the latest DGTeam f/w so will make sure I look into it so I know the score.
I can always roll back if necessary though.

Just hoping I can identify where this loss of routing problem is coming from.

For what it's worth, most of this thread is too technical for me but my internet was enabled on the 11 Nov for ADSL 2+, and thus far the connection rate has been pitiful - under 1 meg. The internet is barely useable. My modem is a - Netgear DG834G v3, Firmware version 4.01.20 - and was provided by idnet.

Having three tabs open in Firefox basically kills the internet and nothing loads. Forget about downloading the latest version of itunes or playing PS3 online. I'm connecting wirelessly and there isn't a problem with the connection between the computer and modem but I'm just receiving barely-there speeds.

I understand that there were some exchange problems over the weekend in the north of England but I'm in Middlesex. Just wondering if anyone else has similar issues ?

I've sent an email to support which I'll be chasing up today but thought I'd throw this out there just incase. Can provide further info if required.....

Thanks

Have you upgraded your router firmware, the v3 is a bit long in the tooth for ADSL2+.

Thanks for the reply. I haven't yet but will do so this evening.

My wife spoke to idnet this morning and was told to make sure the modem is plugged in to the main telephone socket which I don't believe it is at the moment. So will do that too.....

Thanks

Better still, if you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom portion of the faceplate can be detached, do so and connect to the test socket revealed behind. Note that this will cut off any extensions you have.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 15, 2010, 10:11:11
Thanks for the reply. I haven't yet but will do so this evening.

My wife spoke to idnet this morning and was told to make sure the modem is plugged in to the main telephone socket which I don't believe it is at the moment. So will do that too.....

Thanks

Hi Spyro,

Also bare in mind that it can take 10 days (I think) for the line to be fully 'trained' which can mean the speed will go up as the day's go by.

You can use the BT speed tester to find out what profile BT currently have to set to which is what could go up as the line trains.

http://speedtester.bt.com/

@ Rik, that is what support said to do so will have a look later on.

@ JamesAllen, thanks for the site, again will have a look this evening. Idnet support said that if necessary, they would ask BT to reset the line so we'll see.

Hopefully it's something simple like updating the firmware and plugging the modem in to the main socket.....

thanks for the feedback.

Alex

Quote from: JamesAllen on Nov 15, 2010, 10:15:22
Also bare in mind that it can take 10 days (I think) for the line to be fully 'trained' which can mean the speed will go up as the day's go by.

Or down, James. It often starts at its fastest speed and then settles down to a stable speed.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 15, 2010, 10:20:05

thanks for the feedback.

NP, Alex, we'll be here if you need any help.

Quote from: Rik on Nov 15, 2010, 10:20:47
Or down, James. It often starts at its fastest speed and then settles down to a stable speed.

Ah that's interesting. I always heard of people starting with slow speeds and then seeing them increase over the training period. Though perhaps that could be down to a previous IP profile being set which was lower than the new line speed or something.

well the speed can't do down any further for me at the moment. It's barely loading the BBC homepage as it is !

Will update later when I've moved the modem etc.

Quote from: JamesAllen on Nov 15, 2010, 10:24:26
Ah that's interesting. I always heard of people starting with slow speeds and then seeing them increase over the training period. Though perhaps that could be down to a previous IP profile being set which was lower than the new line speed or something.

My current line started optimistically at 4.5M and gradually settled to a realistic 3.5M, James. It's the most common type of training pattern, BT will try to get the fastest speed it can from the line, then adjust down to stable. Sometimes, they adjust down to too stable. ;D

Quote from: Rik on Nov 15, 2010, 10:40:32
My current line started optimistically at 4.5M and gradually settled to a realistic 3.5M, James. It's the most common type of training pattern, BT will try to get the fastest speed it can from the line, then adjust down to stable. Sometimes, they adjust down to too stable. ;D

LOL, yeah I hear you on that. Playing it a little bit too safe at times. :)

With my line it started lower but then rose quite quickly. It has over the past week jumped to the highest sync I've seen yet which is surprising. Some of this I think it down to my previous line being ADSL Max though.

Or improvements at the exchange, BT are doing a huge amount of work, I live in hope that some of it may actually benefit us. ;)

Quote from: Rik on Nov 15, 2010, 10:50:03
Or improvements at the exchange, BT are doing a huge amount of work, I live in hope that some of it may actually benefit us. ;)

Yes that would actually be nice wouldn't it. I sometimes think they do this work just to pass the time or something. ;)
Then again I suppose I can't really complain as it wasn't that long ago that my exchange got upgraded to ADSL2+ after being on Max for years.

Now wait for the fibre. ;)

Morning All

Thought I'd update you on my speed issues. So last night I;

a) Updated the firmware on my modem
b) put a microfilter on the telephone socket where the phone is plugged into ( the modem is plugged into a different socket ). ( I have 3 phone sockets and the 3rd socket is unused ).
c) Moved the modem downstairs as opposed to upstairs.
d) I unscrewed the BT faceplate downstairs to look for the master socket and it wasn't there. Since my house is a new build I have one of those boxes on the outside ( see attached ) so couldn't plug the modem into the master socket ( because i don't have one ).

The end result is that my downloads were much faster. Stable at around 100kbs as opposed to about 3kbs. I didn't get a chance to play the PS3 online nor do a speedtest to get an idea if the overall download speed had increased.

I'll have to monitor it for a few days and see how it goes.... I'll drop a line to support aswell. How easy/hard is it to get BT to come out and check if the wiring is as it should be ? Suppose I'm just curious if the speeds I'm getting are as good as it's going to get ( distance to the exchange etc ) or if there is a fixable issue ( ie a bit of re-wiring ) that could be stopping me getting better speeds.....

Thanks

It's easy, spyro, but they'll bill you. The problem with these external master 'sockets' is that they remain the demarcation point, so no test socket, no ability to do real diagnostics. Contact a local company who offer phone/network wiring and have them check the circuit, it will be much cheaper. From what you say, you do have a wiring issue.

thanks - will probably run it through idnet support first but might try and log a fault with bt ( can you call openreach direct ? ) to see if i can get someone round to check out the wiring free of charge - unlikely I know but worth a shot...

You can't call Openreach direct. Give support a ring my all means, but I don't think you'll get anywhere as you've already proved that there appears to be an issue on your side of the demarcation point.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 16, 2010, 11:26:02
thanks - will probably run it through idnet support first but might try and log a fault with bt ( can you call openreach direct ? ) to see if i can get someone round to check out the wiring free of charge - unlikely I know but worth a shot...

There are still some other things you can do - mainly to get some more information on your exchange.

Go here:
http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/

Enter you telephone number to find out what exchange your on (unless you know it) and then use Google maps to find out where it is in relation to your home. The best connections are usually those where there is less than a mile between the home and the exchange. Worth finding out how far you are form the exchange to get an idea if that may be part of the issue - or at least a factor.

according to google earth, I'm about 1.9 miles from the telephone exchange....

That's straight line, of course. What's your downstream attenuation?

no idea ! How do i find out ?

going to run this

www.speedtester.bt.com

when i get home this evening and post the result.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 16, 2010, 11:51:18
no idea ! How do i find out ?

going to run this

www.speedtester.bt.com

when i get home this evening and post the result.

Log into your router here:
http://192.168.0.1

Username: admin
Password: password

Then go to 'Router Status' and click on 'Show Statistics'.

Copy the details at the bottom showing ADSL Link, Connection Speed etc..

thanks - will do that this evening and will post.

 :thumb:

Thanks, James. :)

Wife ran the bt speedtest and results below. Not sure if that is any good or not. Will do the download attenuation later on....

-------

Download speedachieved during the test was - 664 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 400-1000 Kbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 1000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 7.69:27.21:65.18 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

The results of this test will vary depending on the way your ISP has decided to use these traffic classes.

------

All I can say, without the download sync speed, is that the speed is a bit low for the profile.

Spoke to idnet support and they have reset the line so we'll see how that goes.

Either way I'll post the attenuation details this evening.

Thanks for the feedback.

Alex

 :thumb:

As promised, download attenuation details from the modem are attached.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 16, 2010, 20:56:33
As promised, download attenuation details from the modem are attached.

Very interesting. Your syncing at a rate that should really be giving you downloads of around 300k/sec or so.

Line attenuation is higher than mine (I hit 25db) but someone else will be able to advise on what that means.

Your BT profile could be the limiting factor here as with that of sync I'd expect a higher profile, however perhaps the line attenuation and line noise is causing BT to limit to a lower more stable rate.

Upstream is looking good though - in fact that looks as expected to me.

Quote from: spyro on Nov 16, 2010, 20:56:33
As promised, download attenuation details from the modem are attached.

Downstream att of 40db gives a possible max sync on adsl2+ of around 9000 in ideal conditions , although your downstream margin is showing as 3 . I guess on sync it was higher and has fallen since due to external noise. The low IP profile is due to a previous lower sync, I suspect looking at the current margin another resync is not far off?

Thanks James.

I think I'm a bit more confused than I was before although it does support my theory that I should be getting faster speeds than I am.

As mentioned in a previous post, i spoke to idnet support and they have reset my line, so I'm going to monitor that for a little bit and see how it goes....Not sure what more I can do for the moment.....?

Hi Steve

Thanks for the answer but not being techie, I have to admit I don't understand much of what you wrote !

???

Is a resync different to a line reset that idnet support did earlier today ?

Thanks

A resync occurs when your downstream margin falls to zero, the fall in margin is due to an increase in noise/ interference affecting your line. A reset on adsl2+ to me means removal of a banded profile,which is used by BT to restrict the sync of a line with high errors or repeated resyncs .I think Rik mentioned earlier that your internal wiring maybe suspect which fortunately is something that can be remedied , however if the noise is external to your property it's very difficult to get BT to do anything about it.

Hi guys,

I just wanted to update you all on the issue I originally raised on this post which was to do with loss of routing that would usually happen within 48 hours of the router being connected. I would not lose sync but routing to the default IDNet router would just seem to fail. Re-applying the basic setting on the router would fix it or power cycling.

To look for a solution to this, I upgraded my Netgear D834Gv4 router to the custom firmware produced by DGTeam. These guys no longer produce this firmware or publish it but I was able to find the latest version:

V5.01.16 - DGTeam Rev. 1018

I am happy to say that since flashing my router, the connection has been rock solid and has been up for: 117:18:43.

I am also seeing a slightly higher sync rate.

A superb upgrade. The firmware also offers some really high-end functionality that a tech geek like me really appreciates. ;) It's actually possible to lower the SNR % to potentially boost sync rate at the expense of some stability but I'm yet to experiment with this.

The important thing is that the loss of routing problems now appear solved. I'd like to see the router be up a little longer to be sure but so far the pattern has certainly been broken.

Worth bearing in mind if other users have loss of routing issues as there may be an problem with default firmware in some Netgears and the IDNet systems (potentially).

Thanks for that James. :karmic:

Quote from: Rik on Nov 19, 2010, 11:50:06
Thanks for that James. :karmic:

No problem at all Rik. Hope this helps other's who might get this issue in future.

Me too. ;)

I think I may have spoken too soon. :(

Woke up today to find that I had lost routing again. Checking the logs though I see that I lost sync at 00:58 but the router immediately reconnected successfully.

However, while synced fine routing to the default router was not working. To fix I just applied the basic settings in the router control panel and it re-synced and is now working again.

So it appears that this issue is still a problem.

I'm now going to try this option in the custom router firmware:

"Force broadcast ARP on the wan link

It forces sending broadcast arp packets over the wan link. It should be activated only in case of frequent routing losses from ISP provider. Leave it disabled in the other cases."

This I believe was put into the firmware when O2 users were having similar loss of routing issues..

Will see how it goes.

 :fingers: for you, James.

Right an update. After 6 days of uptime my router lost routing last night again annoyingly. Same symptoms as always - router synced but no traffic can get to the default gateway.

Now what is weird is that I notice that my sync rate is suddenly the highest it's ever been. When I re-synced 6 days ago it was about 14200 or something like that. When I checked the router during the loss of routing yesterday it was synced at 16256. I thought once the router synced, the rate wouldn't change unless it re-negotiated the connection? The up stats showed the router had been up for 6 days but the sync rate has definitely changed.

I rebooted the router again and the high sync rate remained. I just did a speed test and I'm hitting the highest speeds I've ever had.

Still confused as to what could be causing this and it is quite concerning as my connection while perfect for the majority of time is unreliable every week or so.

The only thing I can think of is trying a different router. Sorry, James.

I think that may have the to be the next test. :( I'm hoping it's not a router fault as it was brand new although obviously it's possible. The only thing is, with the newest Netgear Firmware it would lose routing every 2 days or so. I then upgraded to the custom DGTeam FW and it now stays up for 5-6 days so something has changed. I suppose I'd expect if it was a hardware problem to still fail after 2 days but then nothing is obvious with this.

I may borrow the test router of the IDNet guys and see how that goes.

It's got to be worth a try - eliminating the router is the next logical step.

Have you tried static IP addresses or DHCP IP address reservation?

It's currently just using DHCP to obtain it's static IP. Could manually configuring the IP have an effect?

When I lose routing everything appears ok in terms of the router stats (sync, IP, gateway etc).

Just thinking about this some more. It may be coincidence but when I had a previous routing loss I also suddenly saw an increase in sync rate - higher than I'd ever had. Now with last nights problem again I see a sync rate higher than ever before. Ok, when it failed last week my sync dropped a little but still.. Wondering if it could be improvements at the exchange? It does appear that I keep getting improvements in sync as the weeks go by but also these loss of routing issues...

Food for thought.

Definitely, James. If the loss of routing occurs between midnight and 7am, it could be BT's 21CN upgrade work.

It occurred before midnight yesterday and another time was during the afternoon so it seems to be quite random when it occurs. Though I did have a failure during the early hours a few weeks ago.

Still something to bear in mind though. The fact I am no synced at the highest I ever have could be some indication on changes to my line I would think.

It could, it could just be less noisy times. I had a resync during the week around 2pm, and came back up at a slightly higher speed. Nothing to indicate what triggered the event though.

What is confusing me is that when I last rebooted - 6 days ago the sync rate was at 14200 and then last night it jumped to 16300 but the stats still said it had been connected for 6 days. Surely on a re-sync the connection stats should reset on the router? I.E. Sync rate can only change upon a new connection being established?

They should reset, if you're looking at the WAN and not the LAN figure.

Yeah its the WAN connection stats. The sync rate had definitely changed but was still showing it had been connected for 6 days... Really weird.

Of course it may have re-synced not long after the last reboot and I just didn't notice ...

Or the router is acting up. :(

Well after 44 hours it's just lost routing again. :(

Weird thing, once again is that I notice the sync rate is different BEFORE it has reconnected. It's at 14315 kbps. Now either the router lost sync shortly after the last problem and re-connected or something strange is going on here.
It's impossible for the sync rate to change while connected right?

I've just configured the router manually to use it's static IP, rather than using DHCP to obtain it. Will see if that helps.

SRA or seamless rate adaption

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/sky/2924249-sky-broadband-and-sra-seamless-rate-adaptation.html

Basically SRA (Seamless Rate Adaptation) is a feature of ADSL2+ which varies your line speed depending on the line quality or SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) without actually having to re-sync, so basically you always have the fastest line speed for the current line conditions. This is different to ADSL1 which would re-sync to a slower speed, briefly loosing the connection, and will not sync back up if quality improves.


But as far as I am aware BT have not implemented this facility on their version of adsl2+

Good luck with the use of a static IP, it will take the DHCP server out as possible cause of loss of routing.

Thanks Steve - excellent information.

That does sound like what I'm seeing although it's hard to know if the router did re-sync not long after the last reboot. Looking at my logs now I see a message from 00:12 last night saying 'Router starting up' but the connection time when it failed a few hours ago was 44 hours. Weird.

It would be interesting to know for sure if SRA is not part of the current BT ADSL2+ implementation.

Will have to see if the manual IP configuration has an effect. If not the next step is trying a fix I saw related to the problems o2 customers were having with Netgear routers which matches what I'm seeing. Although I have already enabled a mode in the DGTeam firmware which was supposed to fix that anyway.

Time will tell.

Just to add to this, in the DGTeam firmware Seamless Rate Adaptation is set to on, so if it is supported by the exchange it would certainly be in effect.

Afaik, BT haven't implemented it - the cheapskates. ;D

Hi guys,

An update to my issue. I went away last week and once again the router failed - around 5-6 days since the last failure.

Now here's the weird part, I contacted IDNet support and they said the router had disconnected but it wasn't trying to re-connect. Now this fits with what I've seen before in that when it fails it remains synced and states 'Connected' in the status panel. It stayed down for over a day, but then suddenly decided to re-connect. I have no idea why it would suddenly do this.

Anyway, it just failed again last night. 5-6 days since the last re-connect. The duration seems to be fairly consistent between problems.

So IDNet support confirms that during these outages the router does disconnect but it appears that it still thinks it is fully connected and so doesn't bother trying to re-connect. Very weird and very annoying.

However it sounds like a router problem. Annoying as I bought it new off ebay but probably no way to get it sorted out.. :(

Would just love to know why it seems to be fine for 5-6 days then loses connection but doesn't think it has..

Over-heating?

Quote from: Rik on Dec 14, 2010, 12:27:12
Over-heating?

Good idea, although I don't think it's that as all I have to do is reapply the settings (without rebooting) and it re-connects then stays up for another 5-6 days or so. I'd think it would fail sooner if it was over heating perhaps. Hard one to diagnose. When it fails the internet light is active and flashing until I get it to re-connect.. That seems weird to me as well.

I think you have to try a different router, James, to prove one way or another if that one is fritzed.

Quote from: Rik on Dec 14, 2010, 12:31:11
I think you have to try a different router, James, to prove one way or another if that one is fritzed.

Defo, I think you're right. Gone as far as I can with this testing now I think. Was good to have it fail while I was a way from home so support could check the line. Surprised me that it came back up after a day or so though.. Was like it finally realised it was disconnected.. lol.

My only problem now is the only router I have is a v2 DG834 router which I hear is that not great for ADSL2+. I have flashed it to the latest firmware but I wonder how good a test it'll be and what kind of performance hit I'll take.

It's a test though I suppose. IDNet have no test routers available for me to use unfortunately.

Have you checked the idle timeout setting, James? If that's correct, then I'd consider going back to Netgear firmware (or did you and I missed that?).

Quote from: Rik on Dec 14, 2010, 12:45:11
Have you checked the idle timeout setting, James? If that's correct, then I'd consider going back to Netgear firmware (or did you and I missed that?).

Hi Rik,

It's set to 0 so should always stay connected. Although when it fails it thinks it is connected so the router is not actually doing anything deliberately if that makes sense. It just drops the connection but fails to realise.

I started with the latest Netgear Firmware but with that it was failing every 2 days or so. With the DGTeam custom Firmware it lasts for 5-6 days. That again is strange.. Although I suppose if there is a hardware problem, the custom firmware just might be better at keeping it stable for longer.. Perhaps.

I think you have to try an alternative router, otherwise you'll just be tearing your hair out for weeks.

Quote from: Rik on Dec 14, 2010, 12:58:17
I think you have to try an alternative router, otherwise you'll just be tearing your hair out for weeks.

Very true. I have just found another v4 owner on a forum who had the exact same issues as me so going to see if I can ask him if he ever sorted it.

Good luck.

Hi guys,

I haven't been able to try a new router to further check this problem, but I did change my filter just for good measure.

All was fine for almost 173 hours... but then, as always the damn thing failed a few minutes ago.

I'm still confused by this though. This time, it appears that the link went down but my router did re-connect, however the connection status was still showing 173 hours and counting. Even though it had apparently re-connected.

I got this from the dmesg log:

ADSL link down
ADSL G.994 training
ADSL G.992 started
ADSL G.992 channel analysis
ADSL G.992 message exchange
ADSL link down
ADSL G.994 training
ADSL G.992 started
ADSL G.992 channel analysis
ADSL G.992 message exchange
ADSL link up, interleaved, us=1159, ds=12880

So the link went down, it then got to message exchange but it then dropped again so it reconnected and got sync (us=1159, ds=12880).

However, there was no internet connectivity. The thing is, during this the internet light on my router was green and flashing as normal.

Once again, applying the basic settings caused the router to re-connect and it began working immediately.

I know this may very well be hardware (annoying as it's a new router) but does any of this ring any bells with anyone?

Sorry to keep going on about this and I will be trying a new router soon. It seems bizarre that it's fine for 5-7 days then just loses connection but thinks it's still connected fine...

Lower temperatures keeping the router a bit cooler, James? I think you really need to try a substitute.

 had a DG834GT years ago that overheated anyway and dropped connection loads, burnt out in a puff of black smoke in the end. Have you tried using the vertical stand with it? The stand would make it run cooler as a test, but tbh a DG834G v4 should not get that hot anyway. Not many V4's left out there now I would think.

Quote from: Gary on Dec 24, 2010, 13:30:43
had a DG834GT years ago that overheated anyway and dropped connection loads, burnt out in a puff of black smoke in the end. Have you tried using the vertical stand with it? The stand would make it run cooler as a test, but tbh a DG834G v4 should not get that hot anyway. Not many V4's left out there now I would think.

Hey there Gary,

I've had it on the vertical stand since I got it. Good call on heat from both you and Rik, but I'm not so sure it is that. With the normal Firmware it would be up for 2 days then lose routing. I updated to DGTeam firmware and now it'll be up for 5-6 days but then lose routing again. Thing is, I don't then reboot it.. I simply apply the basic settings again and it reconnects and works for another 5-6 days.

It works beautifully while the connection is up. Just strange that it seems to disconnect from the ISP but the ISP light stays green and flashing normally, along with the control panel showing that the router is 'connected'...

Bizarre.. Though yeah, probably a hardware fault.. Annoying as I bought it new.