MK; Any ideas for future improvement?

[FoxtrotEcho]

Hi all,

I'm an Old Idnetter returning for some inspiration and new ideas perhaps.

OK, so nothing is really wrong (never thought I'd ever type that!)

I am in a grotty bit of Bletchley (line and  exchange wise). I'm still on ADSL1, largely due to no realistic expectation of being able to get any further. Another 100 yards south and I'd be out of Bletchley and in some farmer's field, as you can guess from that, I'm on a really pretty long line!

Here's some info and stats I grabbed a little earlier from my router.

Code Select Expand

Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 36426653 53663718 0 493 513 1705:20:24
LAN 100M/Full 56516137 38296511 0 664 0 1705:20:47
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1152 kbps 288 kbps
Line Attenuation 47 db 28 db
Noise Margin 13 db 30 db

2009-09-23
20:36:00


Netgear DG834 v2
Firmware Version  V1.05.00

Modem 
ADSL Firmware Version 1.00.09.00
Modem Status Connected
DownStream Connection Speed 1152 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 288 kbps
VPI 0
VCI 38

So with that in mind I am thinking maybe, just maybe, I might think about a go for upping it to 2mbit. My dilemma is this, there's the technical issues in trying it, and then there's the BT politics side of it all.

If I was lucky, the tech side might just barely hold it together and pull it off, equally I may have missed something and it does not have a hope in hell, in which case please feel free to save me from myself by pointing out what I missed!

If it did not work out, I dare say I face penalties from BT of some kind like not being allowed to have any internet for 5 years or something. OK, it may not go quite that bad, but you'll understand the sort of BT Policy things I am concerned about I am sure.

One thing that does make me wonder if it's worth a go is the thought that ConnectMK is up and running and they are offering a discount for first 3 months. I was thinking of taking that up first and seeing how that behaved, while staying on with IDNet in the normal way of course.

Then, once that gives a good account of itself and is known to be working as it should, ask IDNet to get BT to try for 2mbit. Thus having a fall back position if that does not work out. Then I won't have too much hassle if they have to go as far as cease and reprovide to get me back to where I am now.

As far as I can tell I'd only face a charge for the ConnectMK account for say 3 months or so while trying all this out.

Hopefully once things shake out, I'll be left with 2 systems running 2mbit, and I could run them head to head and see which one to take up full time. I don't think there is anyway I could get more than that, so this seems the only truly sensible option left for the future. Anything else would be quite a gamble, and I can't take a gamble like that as I must have internet connectivity as a lifeline; my life would get far too complicated without it, possibly not even sustainable at that point as I am house bound. I guess that underlines just how much of a regular household utility broadband has now become. Water, Electricity, Gas and Broadband - have we moved from unholy trinity to four horsemen without even noticing? 

I did speak at some length with Brian at IDNet about this and he too could see the dilemma I am stuck with here. He also understood my partial reluctance to tinker with it at all. So I felt it smart to see if anyone here has any other ideas worth considering.

I'm on a recent faceplate, direct from front socket, spent time cleaning up which phone I use on it, making sure no extensions were causing undue complications. This is about as good as anyone could get this I think.  Made sure (as best as was reasonable and or practical) that nothing else had it's fangs into the line as well. Mate of mine is in telecoms, says I did all anyone could most likely. In short we are simply up against too few exchanges and therefore a line that's just too long.

I got no beef with Wimax, it's almost designed for this sort of situation, but it can only come with an FUP, which, as we all know by now, is by definition never going to be fair. And to make it worse that is then back to a monopoly situation! (you just could not make it up could you?)

OK, it's a tall order, I know, but anyone got any thoughts to get some small improvement? No, I can't move either!  Just accurately quantifying the risks I may face would be something!

[Simon]

Sorry, Ian, the tech stuff is beyond me, but   

[Steve]

 

Have you been given any reasons for your poor line speed? I ask as your reported downstream sync seems far too low for a downstream attenuation of 47db , this typically puts you about 3.4km from the exchange with a possible downstream sync of up to 5500. Your line is still affected by noise as your downstream margin is elevated .

You say you have a recent faceplate is this an adsl filtered faceplate such as the XTE-2005?
I also wonder whether a trial of another adslrouter may produce better results, your DG834v2 is presumably of reasonable age and the firmware not recent,

[Rik]

That's a fixed rate ADSL connection, Steve, so the margin is actually lower than I'd expect for the attenuation.

Hi, FE, and welcome to the forum.

Steve is right in the more general issue, and that is that your line is being quite badly affected by noise. I'm in MK myself, but with a 57db line. On Max, I can obtain about 2.8M, on WBC, I am getting 4.8M (sync speeds).

Tell us a bit more about your phone wiring. Do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom half of the faceplate can be removed? Do you have other hard-wired extensions, if so what else is connected to the line? I guess your line is run as an overhead cable? Do you notice a change in noise margin in different weather conditions?

[Ray]

 

[Steve]

Sorry FE to mislead, I miss heard the fixed rate bit must have been the background noise

[FoxtrotEcho]

Thanks

Have you been given any reasons for your poor line speed?

No one has offered any to date.

I ask as your reported downstream sync seems far too low for a downstream attenuation of 47db , this typically puts you about 3.4km from the exchange with a possible downstream sync of up to 5500. Your line is still affected by noise as your downstream margin is elevated .

Reading between the lines, I am guessing there must be some technical problem making this as it is, and that it has no solution that is likely to be put in place as the local council chose this area to set up their Wimax testing. I'm just 593 metres from the Wimax mast. I'd be amazed if that were just a coincidence, as one would like to think they probably don't just plant these things anywhere. It's a costly business, so I'd imagine this must have been surveyed to provide where there was little or no other means. I could be wrong of course, but that, to me, seems to be the likelihood.

On seeing those numbers I had not felt it wrong in any particular way; I had simply ordered 1mbit adsl1 "line only" type package and that seemed to be pretty much what I would have expected to see for that product. Is there something I missed there? That has to be possible as I'm by no means certain and I am a bit rusty I guess. I know the area is probably not all that well served due to distance etc. or at least that is what I have always been lead to understand by a goodly number of people historically. If anyone here has greater local knowledge perhaps they could add to that aspect of it all? I'd be keen to learn more if possible. My understanding is based on what is  now somewhat out of date know how, gleaned  when ADSL was first introduced across the country, but having said that I've not read of anything improving locally, and that should have represented major news given local issues with broadband being extremely sub par in MK in general.

You say you have a recent faceplate is this an adsl filtered faceplate such as the XTE-2005?

It bears no obvious markings, but said comms mate said it was an up to date master socket. At the time (almost 2 years ago) I moved in, I posted some pics of it on the thinkbroadband forums and all agreed it was as in order as anyone could ask.

I also wonder whether a trial of another adslrouter may produce better results, your DG834v2 is presumably of reasonable age and the firmware not recent,

I did briefly have another in place, a Linksys AG241 v2, it had a broadly similar result for about 3 months, and then it failed to connect, no matter what was tried. It was brand new when I moved in here, In January 2008, I'd add, so it's as recent as one could have got at that time. It seems the older kit lasts a lot longer than more recent stuff. It is a bit of a mystery that, as it gave all the signs of being set up fine, but then ultimately it would not connect. The old Netgear was hauled out as a replacement and connected without issue. Been using it ever since. I have had it in mind to look for a backup, however I'm not able to be totally certain it's going to be possible to stay with ADSL yet, and I have not seen anything that truly inspired me with enough confidence to make a purchase to date either. Many have come and gone and found to be lacking in one crucial way or another way according to reviews by others.

I moved here from another part of Bletchley and Milton Keynes where we had a not too dissimilar service offered. That was deemed to be quite normal for the area too. I was in the south west of Bletchely, now I'm in the south east, but I am still connected to the same exchange, I feel that tells the greatest part of this story from a technical standpoint!

I think it was Rik who once joked here that BT in MK was not fit for purpose, if what he said had not been substantially true it would not have been nearly as amusing in the rather dark way that it is. For my part I am pondering "digital britain" and how I and others in the area might get from here to there.

The thought of a modern wifi fido net across MK has crossed my mind too. A sort of WiFidonet I guess. Now there's a desperate thought!

[Rik]

Sorry FE to mislead, I miss heard the fixed rate bit must have been the background noise

Snap, crackle and pop.

[Rik]

The thought of a modern wifi fido net across MK has crossed my mind too. A sort of WiFidonet I guess. Now there's a desperate thought!

Fidonet, now there's a happy memory.

[FoxtrotEcho]

Sorry FE to mislead, I miss heard the fixed rate bit must have been the background noise

That's alright, I guess it must be a bit unusual these days to find some one still thrutching about on adsl1. I wish it were otherwise.

[FoxtrotEcho]

That's a fixed rate ADSL connection, Steve, so the margin is actually lower than I'd expect for the attenuation.

Hi, FE, and welcome to the forum.

Hi and thanks,

Steve is right in the more general issue, and that is that your line is being quite badly affected by noise.

Agreed

I'm in MK myself, but with a 57db line. On Max, I can obtain about 2.8M, on WBC, I am getting 4.8M (sync speeds).

I've watched max, with interest, but going there looks extremely chancy, and expensive if it went worse as a result, which it easily could. It'd be 50-50 at best.

Tell us a bit more about your phone wiring. Do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom half of the faceplate can be removed?

Yes, I believe that is what it is.

Do you have other hard-wired extensions,

Not as such (see below)

if so what else is connected to the line?

Phone and modem in the other socket on the filter. Adding and removing those makes no discernible difference. I've tried other examples of each too. I'm pretty comfy with the idea that I presently have the best example of each that are available to me installed. No extensions on those either, and yes, it is now very cramped in that corner where they put the socket! 

I guess your line is run as an overhead cable?

No, not as far as I can see.

Do you notice a change in noise margin in different weather conditions?

Yes, very, very slightly, as I would expect. More "season" than "weather event" driven from casual observation over the last (almost) 2 years though.

[Rik]

Is that a dial-up modem? What brand of filter/faceplate are you using?

One thing which might be worth a try is getting your hands on a 2-Wire 2700 router, about £10-15 from eBay. They seem to help long lines a lot, and certainly gave me both better speed and stability.

[FoxtrotEcho]

Fidonet, now there's a happy memory.

Speaking as an ex sysop and an ex node with far too many points, I can only guess you were on another fidonet! 

Was very expensive hard work, but fun for all that.

[Rik]

Broadband is so cheap compared to dial up days, we tend to forget. My phone bills ran into hundreds of pounds.

[FoxtrotEcho]

Is that a dial-up modem?

Yes, a recent purchase, only used for fax, they are so much smaller than they used to be! I rather like what time has done to those! Had the problem long before that arrived too.

What brand of filter

Came with either Netgear or Linksys. Will try to persuade my knees into letting me look if it gets super important. Let me know.

faceplate are you using?

Where would it be marked? It's from BT as far as I can establish. Not sure who makes them for them or where to find that out. Had a BT logo moulded on it somewhere from fading memory.

One thing which might be worth a try is getting your hands on a 2-Wire 2700 router, about £10-15 from eBay. They seem to help long lines a lot, and certainly gave me both better speed and stability.

Well, at fixed rate I'm not going to get faster, and it's stable. I'm really pondering how to move forward, or whether I just have to accept 1 mbit is the best I can ever get, in spite of Lord Carter and his thoughts on it all. Of course the Wimax option is the only other way I can think to try as far as I can figure out. Do we know of anyone who has even tried that? Are there any reports that are not offered by the council's own web site (and therefore have to be seen as possibly dubious in nature) I've not seen any mention myself so far.

[Steve]

That's alright, I guess it must be a bit unusual these days to find some one still thrutching about on adsl1. I wish it were otherwise.

That's where I cocked up I equated adsl1 to max dsl. I understand your dilemma, a reliable 1MB is far better than a gamble with max dsl or if your exchange has been already enabled WBC ADSL2+. I presume your only hopes of success would be to succeed in reducing the noise on your line prior to any change. I think the suggestion of a BT 2700 HGV is well worth considering,but don't pay more than Rik intimated.

[Rik]

I'd suggest you get gold of an ADSL Nation filter, FE, they're not the cheapest, but they are, I believe, the best. It may make no difference, but it's worth a try.

http://www.adslnation.com/products/xf-1e.php

If you're using a 'soap on a rope' filter, the faceplate is fairly irrelevant, but it might be worth removing it and plugging the filter into the test socket revealed.

I would hope that the 2700 might improve your noise margin. If it does, a 2M Max service could become feasible.

I've not seen any reports on the Wimax service.

[FoxtrotEcho]

Broadband is so cheap compared to dial up days, we tend to forget.

Yes, mostly!

My phone bills ran into hundreds of pounds.

I still remember that bit rather vividly!  

I still have recurring nightmares of being chased down the street by hoardes of thick white envelopes with a bt logo complete with "piper". If one of them fell on you, you would be crushed to death by the sheer weight alone!  

Edit: Quote markup sorted

[Rik]

It was painful, wasn't it. And all at 300 baud... 

[FoxtrotEcho]

I'd suggest you get gold of an ADSL Nation filter, FE, they're not the cheapest, but they are, I believe, the best. It may make no difference, but it's worth a try.

Agreed, it does seem like an option of some kind, but also looks like spending money in vain. Frankly this is a BT issue and there's probably nothing going to change it as BT obviously won't be caught fixing their shoddy bits, it is something they just don't do. OR at least if they do I've never heard of it being mentioned, it'd be so rare it'd deserve to make front page news too.

http://www.adslnation.com/products/xf-1e.php

Cheers for that, may go there if it starts to look like it will get a useful result.

If you're using a 'soap on a rope' filter,

Yes, it is.

the faceplate is fairly irrelevant, but it might be worth removing it and plugging the filter into the test socket revealed.

When I got the keys to this place, rather than do what most would do - just move straight in - I spent two whole cold and rather miserable days here surrounded by all the possible bits of comms that I would ever contemplate installing, and I tested and tested and tested - and with a nice clear building, it was more productive than this sort of thing normally is! I prodded, tweaked, investigated and pruned where ever possible. I got it slimmed down to the raw basics and it has pretty much stayed that way ever since. I know these opportunities only come along once, so I think I probably got the best anyone could out of it! I could have missed something it's true, of course, but I'll be darned if I can see what. By passing the face plate had no discernible effect, sadly, I almost wish it had, it would have been something to work with at least. That is what stopped me going with ADSL nation in the end, I can't imagine it having that much sway in this situation, but would be prepared to be proven wrong, but it's swaying from tech and logic, and starting to border on an issue of faith by then.

I would hope that the 2700 might improve your noise margin. If it does, a 2M Max service could become feasible.

I can't quite decide if the figures I have might support fixed 2mbit or not - my gut tells me 1500 might well happen, but 2mbit on a reliable basis is less clearly indicated at a guess.

I've not seen any reports on the Wimax service.

I may have to try it and establish exactly what is going on there for certain. It's about time someone did I guess.

What are the BT political implications of asking to try moving from 1mbit to 2 mbit and have that fail? Cost for daring to ask, is there a clear route back to 1mbit? Great isn't it, I want the product they are now supposed to be committed to supplying, and I might get "fined" for asking them to supply it and them quite possibly failing to do so!

I had it in mind to pick up a router(only) for the lan, and if I did that then I could plumb in the Wimax as a second wan for a test I suppose. Then order Wimax and see what happens next. Does that seem sound as a proposition? I think so, but I've not got any experience in doing something like that yet. Does a router have to have anything special to go with two wans? Not sure what I need to look for on that side of things yet.

[Rik]

It's a long shot to try changing filters, but in your position, I'd be prepared to engage in long shots. Same with the 2700. If it can improve the noise margin, it could make a reliable Max service feasible. Even if you only reached 1500k, that's still a 50% improvement and you will also gain upload speed.

You need special routers to bond two lines (sources) into a single feed, and you'd be talking serious money for one.

[FoxtrotEcho]

It's a long shot to try changing filters, but in your position, I'd be prepared to engage in long shots. Same with the 2700. If it can improve the noise margin, it could make a reliable Max service feasible.

Agreed, I'd feel a bit more comfortable exhausting ADSL1 first then trying max if that fails. Anyhow that is my preferred route, not sure if it'd work, but I'd quite like to give it a shot first. It's what my gut reaction is telling me makes the most sense if it can be had. The 2700 seems very popular, I'm somewhat put off by any kind of BT involvement though.

Even if you only reached 1500k, that's still a 50% improvement and you will also gain upload speed.

Yes that's right enough. Makes sense for a second option I am starting to feel. I'm not certain but I think the politics get a bit more serious for that sort of attempt if it were to fail and would obviously get a whole lot more spendy into the bargain. I don't mind a reasonable spend, I just want to make sure I'm spending it on the right thing and doing so only the once preferably.

You need special routers to bond two lines (sources) into a single feed, and you'd be talking serious money for one.

Oh I was not thinking of bonding, that's  far too ambitious, especially since one is effectively pppoe and the other pppoa - not likely to be a good mix I'd have thought.

I was simply going to rely on pointing various machines at one of the two potential WAN gateways which would then be on the LAN. Using Wimax as a fail safe while trying the ADSL options, and covering any gaps should that result in a failure on BTs part.

Think of it like using voda g3 dongles for a prepaid back up but with an additional chance to audition the new wimax stuff too! I think my only risk is about £20 over 3 months plus what ever router I decide on getting first.

For £20 that's quite a lot of finding out one could do over 3 months. Starting to feel like best bang for the buck actually now I think about it like that. I'd at least get to see what Wimax felt like, and that can be just as important as what the actual numbers say sometimes, possibly more so.

[Rik]

Once you set up a 2700, there's little BT involvement. IAC, it's only a badge, really.

The cost is going to be a case of 'suck it and see' whatever route you decide on. Personally, I'd not place too much faith in a Council sponsored network, they are going to be facing cutbacks, so non-essential services might take a hit.

[FoxtrotEcho]

Once you set up a 2700, there's little BT involvement.

OK, I'm suspicious but still listening, how little? 

IAC,

Not familiar with that acronym?

it's only a badge, really.

Agreed, but the fact that they even felt it was a good bet is enough to make me wary, after all, it's things that fall into that category that got us into the mess we have now!

The cost is going to be a case of 'suck it and see' whatever route you decide on.

Quite, I'm just trying to keep it sane if I possibly can. The additional router was something I had in mind for other reasons too, so it would at least serve in that initially intended role if it all went really badly. Not much I'll grant you, but something!

Personally, I'd not place too much faith in a Council sponsored network, they are going to be facing cutbacks, so non-essential services might take a hit.

Yes, quite, assuming for a moment that I am going to, then I suppose I'd better try it while I still can with that thought in mind! Isn't Intel funding it too though? I thought that was the case.

[Rik]

Depends on the firmware you have. Mine are blocked from contacting the BT site. V6 firmware does, but it doesn't seem too have produced any problems.

IAC - In any case.

Lots of ISPs around the world have gone for the 2-Wire, it's a very good router. IDNet did explore supplying it, but the minimum quantity order from 2 Wire was not practical.

I don't know about Intel funding, but I do expect the Council to be squeezed next year.