LLU service now available from IDNet - Discuss here

Niall · Oct 11, 2011, 19:26:28

I'll win the lottery tomorrow night and get IDnet some good kit installed

pctech · Oct 11, 2011, 20:08:36

Had I got the money mate I would build a nationwide fibre network that ISPs could lease capacity on but priced so that it could blow BT's ADSL away.

Ardua · Oct 12, 2011, 11:11:05

In his LLU announcement, Simon at IDNet states:

After completing successful trials we are now beginning to migrate lines to the Telefonica platform where we see that the line will benefit from moving.

I note his comments about MAC codes etc; however, am I not right in thinking that whilst a move to LLU will be at no cost to the customer a migration out to another ISP-provided BT Wholesale ADSL service might incur a cost? I assume that IDNet will not migrate a customer to LLU without prior discussion/agreement?

Edit:

Just checked SamKnows and it is not an option for me as there is no O2/BE LLU at my exchange. A couple of other advice forums state that the provision of a LLU MAC is voluntary: they go on to warn that not all ISPs accept LLU MACs. Something to think about before making the leap?

SSK · Oct 12, 2011, 12:05:51

Just logged in to the IDNET website and looked at my package...
Package: Home Pro LLU
Premium Broadband: No
ADSL2+: No
ADSL2+ Availability: Live
Bandwidth Allowance: 180GB Total (Peak: 40GB / Off Peak: 140GB )

Does that mean I'm already switched to LLU?
If so, wouldn't it have been nice if someone had told me?

Also, Getting sync of over 17 Mbps, so must be on ADSL2+, so why does its say "ADSL2+: No"?

Sean

Steve · Oct 12, 2011, 12:13:20

Sean I think you need to ask support. To me it means as you say- LLU however with regard adsl2+ the No may refer to it's lack of availability via BT as a provider at your exchange.

One question Sean. Have your bandwidth allowances changed?

SSK · Oct 12, 2011, 12:37:44

I have now contacted support and am awaiting a response.

Apart from the info on the IDNET website (see above) it would seem my connection must be LLU because the BT Speedtester won't work now - it says:
"Performance Tester is unable to run the speed test for your telephone number. Please check that it is the correct telephone number for your service.

My bandwidth allowances have stayed the same.

My exchange has BT ADSL2+, and I've been on that for several months.

One thing concerns me - presuming I'm now switched from BT to LLU, what happens if I want to switch to an ISP which uses BT - will I have to pay a reconnection fee?

Sean

Steve · Oct 12, 2011, 12:48:36

Quote from: SSK on Oct 12, 2011, 12:37:44

One thing concerns me - presuming I'm now switched from BT to LLU, what happens if I want to switch to an ISP which uses BT - will I have to pay a reconnection fee?

Sean

I think the answer is NO as it's a 'partial' LLU and the normal MAC migration applies.

SSK · Oct 12, 2011, 12:57:02

Have now heard from support that my line is indeed on LLU.

"The adsl2+: No" listing on the website has been referred to website admins as the circuit is adsl2+

I asked about possible costs involved if I switch to an ISP who uses BT. They replied it " should not result in problems migrating should you chose to" - which presumably means no BT reconnection charge, maybe (as Steve says) because it is a 'partial' LLU.

Sean

esh · Oct 12, 2011, 12:59:39

Hmm, interesting.

Apparently I am on SuperMax LLU, though I have had no downtime whatsoever. My package shows 60GB/300GB, which is confusing as well, because it should be 40GB/180GB, not that I'm complaining I guess!

It currently says "ADSL2+: No" and "ADSL2+ Availability: (blank)"

I guess this means the bethere website is spewing nonsense when it says I can get 10Mbit!

esh · Oct 12, 2011, 13:08:08

Oh wait, the ADSL2 SuperPro package is 60/300GB. Does this mean I'm on an ADSL2 enabled line modulated to ADSL1? My brain!!

Simon_idnet · Oct 12, 2011, 14:25:52

Hi Esh

You are on an ADSL2+ service but it looks like your line will only support 8Mbps.

We don't charge for LLU to BT migrations and so if anyone (on an IDNet LLU line) wishes to migrate away to another ISP (on a BT line) then we can always migrate them - within IDNet - from Telefonica to BT and then issue a BT-to-BT MAC code, free of charge.

Lance · Oct 12, 2011, 14:29:31

Thanks for clarifying that, Simon. Does that add to the length of time it takes to migrate?

Technical Ben · Oct 12, 2011, 14:36:49

Thanks Simon and IDNet. I don't know how you manage it, but your amazing as a company. That reply is both logical, fair and concise to customers. When it would cause trouble with any other company, you found a solution to fit all needs (by allowing internal migrations for free). Just plain wow. How other companies manage to compete with such service I have no idea..

davej99 · Oct 12, 2011, 14:49:20

Excellent news, IDNET. BT has to feel the heat.

Were I to use IDNET commercially, I would certainly prefer a flexible dual source wholesale arrangement. I am all for smaller, more agile technology enterprises, trying to build competitive advantage and thereby top class companies. Jobs and Gates ultimately upturned IBM.

There is, though, the tiny "better the devil you know" caveat for me, because I have had a completely problem free time with domestic IDNET/BTW, since joining from Virgin Media in 2008. I very nearly went with ADSL24/Entanet which allegedly had problems later and is now an ADSL24/C&W service I think. I would very much prefer not to be moved without my consent and certainly not without being told. I would also seek assurances that an LLU service will not run short of capacity. But I feel sure IDNET have thought of that.

At a more practical level there is the small matter of having the relevent LLU equipment at one's exchange. This set me thinking if there is a way that end users who are, or wish to be, customers of the various ISPs that partner Telefonica Wholesale, can collectively petition for LLU equipment to be installed at exchanges where there is none. Could there be perhaps a site to register one's interest. Such is the widespread disenchantment with BT generally, and with its treatment of wholesale customers, you could believe there is pent up demand for a quality LLU wholesale provider.

Finally there is the question of the voice service and whether there will be the option of becoming fully unbundled.

So well done IDNET. As Corporal Jones might say, "They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring." Let wholesale competition flourish!

Ardua · Oct 12, 2011, 15:13:51

Quote from: davej99 on Oct 12, 2011, 14:49:20

I would very much prefer not to be moved without my consent and certainly not without being told. I would also seek assurances that an LLU service will not run short of capacity. But I feel sure IDNET have thought of that.

I agree with the above. If IDNet is moving its customers to a new wholesale provider then customers need to be told in advance by Support. Or, alternatively, IDNet should do as other ISPs have done re ADSL to ADSL2+ which is to inform customers that they will be transferred to LLU when their exchange is enabled. I accept that IDNet needs to get away from the clutches of BT but customer service is all about company to customer communication and this, IMHO, has never been IDNet's strong suite.

To put this into context, my daughter has just rented a flat in London and I have been quietly surprised by the way that BT has handled her set up. (She went to BT to avoid having to pay all the upfront charges). They kept her informed by text - noting that she did not have landline phone or broadband access - of the progress of her order. Texted her on the day before to confirm that everything was going forward the following day. Sent 2 further texts when the phone line and broadband were enabled. She then managed to bungle the Hub firmware update and she spent an 1 hour or more on the phone (at BT's cost) being talked through the 'fix'. And she gets 19Mbps synch on a 20Mbps ADSL2+ connection free for the first 3 months.

Rik · Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44

Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

pctech · Oct 12, 2011, 15:39:15

Indeed they have.

I think when I have used up my bandwidth with my current provider I'm going to give IDNet a whirl via LLU.

Lance · Oct 12, 2011, 16:00:49

I agree, Rik. Under the terms of our contracts IDNET are free to choose whichever wholesale supplier they like and as long as the customer is not disadvantaged by changes there is nothing we can do.

Ardua · Oct 12, 2011, 16:33:05

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

Rik - I don't disagree; however, what happened to courtesy. Announcing a change of this magnitude on a forum which may be read by only a small number of IDNet customers is hardly good PR. Secondly, a customer always has the right to migrate which could also be avoided with good communications from an ISP. As I understand it, OFCOM is still in discussions with ISPs about a MAC code process for partial LLU migrations. Clearly, IDNet has a plan - why do not say so upfront on their website?

Technical Ben · Oct 12, 2011, 16:35:02

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

Yep. As said, although I'd expect IDNet to tell customers first, I'd not necessarily apply that to other companies. IE, if it's a transparent service like ASDL+ to ASDL2+ or "routing" etc, then customers are not necessarily in the communication "loop". But they are not required to be, it's a transparent service.

If Royal mail use Ford vans instead of VW vans, you'll not get told in the post. IDNet just upgraded to Mercedes.

esh · Oct 12, 2011, 17:32:08

Quote from: Simon_idnet on Oct 12, 2011, 14:25:52
Hi Esh

You are on an ADSL2+ service but it looks like your line will only support 8Mbps.

Thanks, I got some clarification from support also. Now I'm feeling mighty stupid here, but when you say "my line", is that because of my old network equipment (which is old) or some other telecomms equipment between the exchange and me? I'm a bit unclear on that.

For folks who are interested :

My downstream bandwidth has remained at the decent-but-unremarkable 5.5Mbps (which was 6.8Mbps in 2007-2008). My upstream however has shot up to a bonkers 0.99Mbps, which I didn't think was possible on ADSL1. Ping analysis will need a little more time but things seem fine.

Rik · Oct 12, 2011, 18:09:18

Quote from: Ardua on Oct 12, 2011, 16:33:05
Rik - I don't disagree; however, what happened to courtesy.

Do we question which power station generates our electricity as long as it works? Ideally, I'd have liked to see emails sent to customers warning of the change, as there might be some downtime, and that may happen as the programme gets into full swing. However, doing so could end up in an email exchange if the customer doesn't want the move.

QuoteAnnouncing a change of this magnitude on a forum which may be read by only a small number of IDNet customers is hardly good PR. Secondly, a customer always has the right to migrate which could also be avoided with good communications from an ISP. As I understand it, OFCOM is still in discussions with ISPs about a MAC code process for partial LLU migrations. Clearly, IDNet has a plan - why do not say so upfront on their website?

You're asking the wrong person, but it's not uncommon for changes, eg 24/7 support, to be announced here. I am guessing, but I'd expect a newsletter to be in the offing once all the testing is complete and the bugs ironed out.

Glenn · Oct 12, 2011, 18:11:04

I noticed that it has only been announced here, unless I missed it over at TBB.

esh · Oct 12, 2011, 18:16:47

I'd just like to point out again I would not have known I had been changed over unless I had been prompted to check my customer portal - so there isn't going to be any sudden drop/chaos on your line. It should be transparent for most people.

Pretty sure my ping has gone up. I'm keeping an eye on that.

davej99 · Oct 12, 2011, 20:35:43

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
........ If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer ........

Indeed my Ts & Cs state at:

(Section) 2 Supply of the Service

(Para) Upgrades and other changes

"We reserve the right to: upgrade, add to, or improve the Service (at no extra charge to you during the payment
period during which this change occurs); make other amendment, variation or modification to the Service (subject to
there being no material detriment suffered by you as a result)."

I am no advocate, Devil's or otherwise, but I suggest it is both prudent and courteous to advise customers before changing their wholesale supplier, and ideally secure at least tacit agreement. But for me that is academic; I do not have Telefonica LLU at my exchange.